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elustran

Balanced recycling of tools

49 posts in this topic

Got an idea although I agree with the above and eternal in that honestly the loss of the tool is one of the most dramatic moments in TFC and everyone else that tools should have some usable metal left. So i went for a center point, something that allows recycling but still captures that dramatic moment. All of the optimizations we are talking about will work perfectly think of the loss of the enchantments the sharpenings, the hardenings, the repairs, all that work just flushed down the toilet because of your foolishness and what do you get in return a small bit of scrap metal (worth half or maybe a quarter of an ingot). This will keep that emotional moment and still be believable. Balance found, victory achieved.

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This is fair and realistic, but doesn't fit with the survival mode as it should have been aspect of TFcraft. The one cleaver, stronger, faster, the one who looks after his tools is the one who should be rewarded.

A clever persone who thinks about servival would use his tools as much as they can before recycling them, he wouldent save a few hit on them before melting them down. I dont get why you guys insist on having this huge devide between usable and brealy usable.

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I have a solution to all your problems. Instead of a tool completely disappearing after the durability runs out, why not make it so that randomly while you're using your tool, the head can break off and can either be

A. Reattached back on in a crafting table or some other medium if the head just fell off.

B. scrapped for spare metal if the head breaks and you get a broken tool head item.

Let's face it, shit breaks when you don't want it to, and the lower and lower the durability bar gets, the higher chance the head will fall off and you will have to repair it or just break. In the case of swords, less durability = less damage. Swords get dull with repeated use. Swords can be sharpened to regain damage and durability.

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I like the idea, it adds uncertainty and risk. It will make you think twice before engaging that creeper with an almost broken sword :P .

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I think the only balanced way to recycle tools was if tools had much longer lives but were much harder to obtain. Rocks would have to be overall much harder to mine, ore would have to come in larger deposits and be regional, not just case-by-case (finding one ore source would indicate there being other ore bodies nearby), and each chunk of ore would have to produce much less metal. This would make it realistic, and would be the only fair way to make tools last longer and/or be recyclable. You can't make part of the system realistic without the rest of it :/ I don't think it's going to happen.

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I think the only balanced way to recycle tools was if tools had much longer lives but were much harder to obtain. Rocks would have to be overall much harder to mine, ore would have to come in larger deposits and be regional, not just case-by-case (finding one ore source would indicate there being other ore bodies nearby), and each chunk of ore would have to produce much less metal. This would make it realistic, and would be the only fair way to make tools last longer and/or be recyclable. You can't make part of the system realistic without the rest of it :/ I don't think it's going to happen.

Kindof agree, but I just want to point out a bit of an inconsistency in that last statement.

If we can't make part of a system realistic without the rest of it, then why is it that steve has to eat, can drink (and may possibly have to in the future?), but we don't have to constantly alternate holding the right and left control keys to make him breathe?

Because I thought we were going for 'realistic up until the point that it stops being fun'. I could be wrong, of course.

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There are a lot of interesting ideas here, but my chief concern with this concept would be ease of implementation, assuming Bioxx likes the general idea. I've barely cracked MCP, so I know very little about Minecraft's internal coding, but I imagine something like overhauling the way tools break by making them break randomly would be more difficult to code and than adding a little routine that adds a 'broken tool' item when a tool breaks. Rather, it would me more difficult to code and maintain compatibility with other forge mods (even though they don't really fit in with TFC anyway).

The core of the concept is to get some return from recycling material without giving so much back from a worn tool that ore distribution would need to be restructured to maintain game balance. The only reason why I originally went with 50% was because that would essentially double the usefulness of the ore you find. Quadrupling it might be a bit extreme... although the last game of TFC I played was on hardcore, lasted 15 hours until I got trapped in a corner by skeletons, and I only found enough zinc for four tools. To be fair, I was playing more with surface exploration and development than mining when I probably should have been mining, but ore deposits are rare enough it would be nice to make them stretch.

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Well I’m not an expert in minecraft coding so i looked up the itemTool class and it seems pretty simple to make an item break randomly. Just have to add a function that randomly decides if the tool breaks or not and call in the hitEntity and onBlockDestroyed function and your set. A for forge compatibility well i have no clue about that but I don’t think there are that many mods that touched that class.

I agree that there would be some balance issues if we could recycle our tools. i think stone tools should be made less useful. Early game I find myself using stone tools way too much even when i have perfectly good bronze ingots sitting in my chests. this is mainly due to the fact that with the new knapping system I don't even need to set up a crafting table and i can make all my digging tools as long as I have sticks left and frankly the difference between a bronze pick and a stone pick is not that big.

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Kindof agree, but I just want to point out a bit of an inconsistency in that last statement.

If we can't make part of a system realistic without the rest of it, then why is it that steve has to eat, can drink (and may possibly have to in the future?), but we don't have to constantly alternate holding the right and left control keys to make him breathe?

Because I thought we were going for 'realistic up until the point that it stops being fun'. I could be wrong, of course.

hey. We're having a nice to discussion here and I generally enjoy reading your ideas and posts, but lets not be a smartass here. If we increase how long tools last for (thereby decreasing the DEMAND for metal) we need to also decrease the SUPPLY of that metal.
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hey. We're having a nice to discussion here and I generally enjoy reading your ideas and posts, but lets not be a smartass here. If we increase how long tools last for (thereby decreasing the DEMAND for metal) we need to also decrease the SUPPLY of that metal.

Well idk, supply already seems fairly thinly spread. At least in the worlds I've generated, you need to go far and wide to find anything even remotely useable. Yeah the veins are huge when you do find them, but resources are still very limited. That set of 3 double chests full of bronze doesn't feel quite so reassuring a few hours in when you've turned all but 1 chest into tools and worn through them all already, looking for more ores that don't seem to exist inside of a 2k block radius from you

Edit:

Btw apologies if I came off a bit nasty... I had court today, and am not in the most pleasant frame of mind.

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That set of 3 double chests full of bronze doesn't feel quite so reassuring a few hours in when you've turned all but 1 chest into tools and worn through them all already, looking for more ores that don't seem to exist inside of a 2k block radius from you

Yeah, that is rather disheartening. The ore search process in TFC is somewhat more fun than just hammering through kilometers of stone near bedrock until you get what you need, as you might do in vMC, but spending hours digging in hopes of finding even a trace sample of something useful also grates. On one of my earlier playthroughs, I found lots of ore - not all of it was immediately useful, but it was still plentiful enough I forged anvils from stone to steel in one sitting the moment I had enough bronze to do so. Even if ores go back to being a bit easier to find so you can make progress in a more reasonable amount of time, having some sort of metal/tool reuse system would be useful.
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This seems like a solid idea. You'd only get a small portion of an ingot of course, but it would also make you wonder about throwing out old tools on an expedition. If you have the space, you might just want to bring em back to the forge.

Maybe even have it so you can craft a broken tool item into scrap metal, then smelt the scrap metal back to unshaped. This way you could stack scrap metal froma tin sword and a tin pick, for example, into one inventory slot.

It adds a little more to inventory management and lets people feel like they can get more for their metal.

Perhaps unnecessary in strict singleplayer, but on my multiplayer server we can go through metal pretty fast.

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my very coder unfriendly list of ideas

1 tools loos and incredibly small amount of metal upon each use

2 tools become dull upon each use

this is determined by the material and how well it was crafted. stone tools dull within like 20 uses so that you have a reason to use metal

3 dull tools can be sharpened which uses up a significant amount of the metal, and stone tools can only be sharpened once.

the sharpening should brobably be like smithing and if you don't get it quit right will damage the tool.

4 when a tool becomes 90 percent dull or more it has an ever increasing chance of breaking

5 tools can only be used untill they have used 20% of their material at which point they have a 70% chance of breaking and can no longer be repaired

6 the shaft of tools should be crafted by either a plank or a log.

7 the shaft has a durability and can break. the shaft can not be repaired.

8 when a tool or shaft breaks their is a chance the tool head gets lost.

9 a tool head breaks into 2-8ish pieces. each piece has a chance to get lost

10 if a tool breaks it automatically subtracts 5% of the material for added incentive to repair

11 metals can be recycled

12 alloys that are added together in liquid stage can be recycled.

im not sure if bronze should be recyclable or not since their is a certain ratio needed. perhaps it is called used bronze and has less durability and strength than regular

13 alloys that need to be worked then combined can not be recycled like the others

I do not know enough about metallurgy to come up with a way

14 metals are recycled by putting the pieces or used tool into the bloomery or in the furnace if those pot thingies(I forgot the name) are added

15 the recycling process looses about 5% maybe 10 or more for balance but I prefer 5

16 recycled tools get duller quicker and have a higher chance of breaking and getting lost

17 leather armor can be repaired by using half as much leather as it took to make the armor.

this could be alterable for different durability levels plus after a certain amount of repairs is should have a chance of falling apart

18 armor can be reshaped when damaged but it looses 5% of the metal

19 more metal can be added to the armor (which again should is something like the anvil interface) but their is a chance if you don't do it completely right you have a chance of ruining the armor depending on how off you are

20 swards are smiler to armor except that they are sharpened instead of reshaped. and must be sharped if more metal is added to them and they have a chance of doing less power and snapping if done wrong.

edit 21 you can over sharpen tools and swords for extra speed and damage respectively but it use 5% of the metal and significantly increases the speed at witch it dulls and loosed metal.

this is my list from my limited experience of watching tv and youtube, those of you who actually work metal please improve upon it

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You know that this is pretty much impossible in minecraft right? the dulling, and loss of metal of a tool i mean. recycling has already been covered, as well as recycling anvils.

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You know that this is pretty much impossible in minecraft right? the dulling, and loss of metal of a tool i mean. recycling has already been covered, as well as recycling anvils.

damage values scooter, damage values

maybe we could make the image for the tools change as they get more damaged?

cuz a almost broken axe is going to look much different than a freshly forged one

well if that's even possible to do

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Again srg, i made that exact request to dunk lol...

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Again srg, i made that exact request to dunk lol...

ah okey well now he has doube the reason to do it!
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You know, one thing you could do, simple but realistic, is that when it breaks, you get a broken tool head, no stick, and if you melt it down, you get maybe 30% of the material used to make it. Even if it had had 1 use left, you would've gotten 65%...Kinda to represent the 'last straw'.

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.... please use the search bar Rolepgeek, there is an entire thread devoted to this, actually several in fact.

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You know, one thing you could do, simple but realistic, is that when it breaks, you get a broken tool head, no stick, and if you melt it down, you get maybe 30% of the material used to make it. Even if it had had 1 use left, you would've gotten 65%...Kinda to represent the 'last straw'.

Sigh... I actually wrote a really really nice equation for just how much you'd get back from a tool based on its damage... but now I can't find it anymore...

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You know that this is pretty much impossible in minecraft right? the dulling, and loss of metal of a tool i mean. recycling has already been covered, as well as recycling anvils.

why would it be impossible it would be very similar to the current durability of an item but would not be shown

each use would slowly decrease the value of the item depending on 3 or more factors

isn't combat a whole lot more complicated than that

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Actually I quite like this...

One suggestion though - you'd put something like this in a bloomery more likely than a fireplace. The metal you get back should also be inversely proportional to a set fraction of the damage to the tool. Something like-

[metal retrieved] = [2kg {1 ingot worth}] - (2kg * ((1 - [remaining durability% as decimal]) * 0.2))

Should also add 0.5 kg of fuel, from the stick.

So say an axe with 40% durability left is tossed into the bloomery. That's-

2 - (2 * ((1 - 0.4) * 0.2)) = 1.76 kg metal & 0.5 kg fuel

I like this reasoning. This is what I had in mind while reading the topic! Of curse without the math part.
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Sigh... I actually wrote a really really nice equation for just how much you'd get back from a tool based on its damage... but now I can't find it anymore...

I saw it. I'm saying that if you make it just a drastic jump down, rather than nothing, it rewards smart players, AND is realistic.

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I saw it. I'm saying that if you make it just a drastic jump down, rather than nothing, it rewards smart players, AND is realistic.

...have you checked the algorithm I wrote? the only time it's possible to get less than 1.01 kg of metal is to break the tool entirely. You always get at least around half back

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