Disillusioned with TFCraft

[Pyrocantaes 8]

I've been playing TFcraft on and off now since beta 6 and until now have been relatively happy with progress. I can live with the chest nerf but I now find Pre49 unplayable..

Why.. Simply because finding any ore is pure luck.. I've been playing Pre49 gen maps for 10 hours plus real time, split 50/50 multiplayer and single player, and in all that time the only ore I've found 1 vein of ore, at level 100 (my house was at 170) and that was by pure chance whilst digging down towards bedrock under my house. Why was my house there..because it was a free spot in the community I joined.

The pro pick is now useless for finding ore, I've burned scores trundling across vasts tracks of minecraftland. I've found outcrops of pretty much every single rock type except granite or gabbro (why is that?) and in all that time I've not found anything of interest.

So either fix the ore gen so that the game so its actually playable, I don't even have a base on my single player map because I've not found anywhere that is worth while setting one up, or put the ore gen back to pre38.

[Gorni 73]

The oregen is fine, for deep down ores. But it really sucks at the moment for the high up ores. They are very rare and ultra small, exactly the opposit that was aimed at. Im sure the oregen for the higher layers will at least get a change, cause its really bad how it is right now. The big veins on lower y-levels though are pretty fine.

[Truculent 2]

Latest released version is 45, did you typo the version# by chance?

In the last few versions, ore doesn't spawn above ~135 now so if you're just roaming about the surface keep an eye on your Y axis. Large swaths of the surface will be totally out of range of propicking any ore. If you're on version 45 then the propick will hit +- 12 blocks, you should easily find some starter ores on the surface, but you won't find anything if you're above 147 or 148 in y axis. In previous versions you won't propick anything if you're above 141 or 142 in y axis, which will be most of the above-ground area on the map to be honest.

The best way IMO to find ore now is to drill straight down. Just take 3-4 stone pick and stone propick and mine below your feet, checking every 2nd or 3rd block with the propick. You might fall into a cave and die, so don't carry anything valuable (some food/torches and an axe is a good idea for caving). If you find a cave and survive then explore around some and maybe you'll get lucky. You can stop at about y=20 or so and either pillar back up with cobble or just put some cobble above your head and suicide. If you didn't find ore then move some distance away and try again. The propick scans 24x24 so go at least 25 blocks away and repeat.

Also keep an eye on what types of rock you get at what y-value per biome. If you're looking for a specific ore it will help you narrow down the search.

[kelik 10]

i was starting to wonder why i wasnt finding any more surface deposits, i'll have to check my height coords.

[Pyrocantaes 8]

Latest released version is 45, did you typo the version# by chance?

In the last few versions, ore doesn't spawn above ~135 now so if you're just roaming about the surface keep an eye on your Y axis. Large swaths of the surface will be totally out of range of propicking any ore. If you're on version 45 then the propick will hit +- 12 blocks, you should easily find some starter ores on the surface, but you won't find anything if you're above 147 or 148 in y axis. In previous versions you won't propick anything if you're above 141 or 142 in y axis, which will be most of the above-ground area on the map to be honest.

The best way IMO to find ore now is to drill straight down. Just take 3-4 stone pick and stone propick and mine below your feet, checking every 2nd or 3rd block with the propick. You might fall into a cave and die, so don't carry anything valuable (some food/torches and an axe is a good idea for caving). If you find a cave and survive then explore around some and maybe you'll get lucky. You can stop at about y=20 or so and either pillar back up with cobble or just put some cobble above your head and suicide. If you didn't find ore then move some distance away and try again. The propick scans 24x24 so go at least 25 blocks away and repeat.

Also keep an eye on what types of rock you get at what y-value per biome. If you're looking for a specific ore it will help you narrow down the search.

Yes I did typo it ..

But your answer pretty much agrees with my assessment .. the game is unplayable .. you can't propick from the surface therefore you can't locate starter ores.. therefore you can't locate a decent starting position.

what you're basically saying is build a random base, dig down to y 120 then dig massivlely long tunnels in a 500 block radius propicking as you go in the hope you hit something..

The game is therefore unplayable in it's current state...

[Incompatibility 16]

Already another topic about this. It's even in the same sub-forum :

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

I've been playing TFcraft on and off now since beta 6 and until now have been relatively happy with progress. I can live with the chest nerf but I now find Pre49 unplayable..

Why.. Simply because finding any ore is pure luck.. I've been playing Pre49 gen maps for 10 hours plus real time, split 50/50 multiplayer and single player, and in all that time the only ore I've found 1 vein of ore, at level 100 (my house was at 170) and that was by pure chance whilst digging down towards bedrock under my house. Why was my house there..because it was a free spot in the community I joined.

The pro pick is now useless for finding ore, I've burned scores trundling across vasts tracks of minecraftland. I've found outcrops of pretty much every single rock type except granite or gabbro (why is that?) and in all that time I've not found anything of interest.

So either fix the ore gen so that the game so its actually playable, I don't even have a base on my single player map because I've not found anywhere that is worth while setting one up, or put the ore gen back to pre38.

If you listen to Crysyn or watch the spotters guide you'll know that you're not supposed to dig down to find your first ores. You're supposed to look at the surface. Run a distance and constantly use your propick. It will make it much easier.

[Pyrocantaes 8]

If you listen to Crysyn or watch the spotters guide you'll know that you're not supposed to dig down to find your first ores. You're supposed to look at the surface. Run a distance and constantly use your propick. It will make it much easier.

So 5 hours running about the surface of a single player map NOT finiding a single deposit anywhere and 2.5 hours on a multiplayer NOT finding any ores and buring through approx 50 propicks means I'm doing it all wrong then??

On my SMP map I finally picked a spot on a Dirorite outcrop.. So far I've found zip. The dirorite gives out at about Y 135 ie just below sea level which is 145. Below that is mudstone down to Y 90, and below that is granite. I've dug down to Y 40 (hitting a massive cave) and so far found zip. I've dug 4x70m long radial tunnels at Y 90 through the granite and found zip ..

So tell me the ore gen is not broken .. evidence is very much to the contrary.

[Brodiggan 77]

I'm with Pyrocantaes (and many, many others) on this. I'm not sure if it's just some sort of issue with the generation in single player or what, but after 30+ hours of searching the surface in every direction, diving to the bottom of the ocean and using the propick there, exploring caves, and digging down almost to bedrock to explore the massive lava caverns there I've managed to find just enough ore to make a couple zinc hammers, a saw, two scythes, and a few chisels. So far I've also stumbled on some small deposits of tin and lead, but not one ounce of copper, iron, or anything else that would actually let me progress anywhere beyond the stone age. If this is working as intended it's ridiculous.

[Truculent 2]

what you're basically saying is build a random base, dig down to y 120 then dig massivlely long tunnels in a 500 block radius propicking as you go in the hope you hit something..

It's not what I suggested at all.

[Keyalha 0]

Well thats what current Version reality is, and i fully agree at its current stage getting ore is pure randomness. Besides even with you hitting an ore its so dilluted due to the fact that the propicks range is way to big for its own good. I put TFC on halt because of this too. Hoping it somehow gets fixed but to what i know bioxx is allergic against any suggestions on how to replace the completly usless propick system so i guess im out of luck.

Dont get me wrong i love this mod but when playing it its just too much of a hassle and with rock hardness beeing even more amped up using stone picks is more of a hassle. So those who hit luck with ores in already deployed worlds its fine but for everyone starting a new map its pure nightmare.

I think its good to have ores beeing found hard but in my book the whole propick system needs to be replaced with a system that can be grindy and a chore but gives predictable results, which we are currently completly lacking. Its ok for stuff to be hard but dishing out hours and hours on and without even knowing that it nets you any result is completly off the chart in terms of risk vs reward and time vs reward. You dish out many hours on time if you dont get lucky and permanently risk caveins or have to have a going woodfarm ( which you dont have on a new map ) but the output result simply dont justify it by any economical means.

[Pyrocantaes 8]

It's not what I suggested at all.

Given that you did't offer any realistic solution, it's pretty muc what it amounts to.

I also follow SOTMead's LetsPlay, and given that their current ore mine (For S3) starts 30 blocks down through long passages and was discovered by accident due to one of the players needing somewhere to hide in the desert overnight just adds further credence to the build in a random place, dig down, and dig massively long tunnels method of finding ore.

[Lumireaver 101]

I think a good solution would be to drop (or rather soften) the tiers a bit, and maybe mix things up. Make certain metals better suited for certain, specific tools with as much basis in reality as we can scrap together. So bronze tools would lose their edges rather quickly compared to iron tools, but iron tools wouldn't last as long because they're more prone to rust, or whatever. (Bronze hammer > iron hammer, but bronze sword < iron sword...) This would also probably help encourage trade even when you're rolling in what would normally be considered high tier ore.

A stray thought--maybe tools could need maintenance (greasing to prevent rust at least once every x uses) and certain metals would be nicer to have because of their ease-of-care?

Progressing through anvil tiers (and funnelling everything through a starter tier) would be alright by itself, but given TFC's very broad focus, it just seems kind of out of place.

Keep in mind, I'd only like to see the tiers softened. Melting points and other restrictions should still be in place.

[Keyalha 0]

I think no one has problems with the tiers itsself and way more so with the fact that getting there is just a matter of luck and randomness but that might be my personal and biased view.

[elustran 23]

Latest released version is 45, did you typo the version# by chance?

In the last few versions, ore doesn't spawn above ~135 now so if you're just roaming about the surface keep an eye on your Y axis. Large swaths of the surface will be totally out of range of propicking any ore. If you're on version 45 then the propick will hit +- 12 blocks, you should easily find some starter ores on the surface, but you won't find anything if you're above 147 or 148 in y axis. In previous versions you won't propick anything if you're above 141 or 142 in y axis, which will be most of the above-ground area on the map to be honest.

The best way IMO to find ore now is to drill straight down. Just take 3-4 stone pick and stone propick and mine below your feet, checking every 2nd or 3rd block with the propick. You might fall into a cave and die, so don't carry anything valuable (some food/torches and an axe is a good idea for caving). If you find a cave and survive then explore around some and maybe you'll get lucky. You can stop at about y=20 or so and either pillar back up with cobble or just put some cobble above your head and suicide. If you didn't find ore then move some distance away and try again. The propick scans 24x24 so go at least 25 blocks away and repeat.

Also keep an eye on what types of rock you get at what y-value per biome. If you're looking for a specific ore it will help you narrow down the search.

If you have to dig straight down and risk death in order to find anything in a gameable amount of time, it's kind of silly. I was lucky in my last game, I think, because I found some zinc relatively quickly, but those tools wore out quickly, and I never found more. There needs to be more ore closer to the surface to get you started, especially if rocks are even harder now.

[kotoroshinoto 97]

If you have to dig straight down and risk death in order to find anything in a gameable amount of time, it's kind of silly. I was lucky in my last game, I think, because I found some zinc relatively quickly, but those tools wore out quickly, and I never found more. There needs to be more ore closer to the surface to get you started, especially if rocks are even harder now.

what do you consider a "gameable amount of time"?.

If you're looking for a mod that lets you have iron tools in about 20-30 minutes, I think you might be trying to play the wrong mod.

not all the ores are at insanely low depths either, I routinely find medium and small veins near enough to the surface as to not be too troublesome to collect, you just don't know how to use the propick properly yet.

you WILL be using stone tools primarily for quite a while, you ideally should be saving your low level ingots for higher tier alloys and use as little material as you can until you have enough of a stash to blow it on tools.

The higher level tools have much more durability, you won't have this issue if you manage your resources properly.

[Brodiggan 77]

not all the ores are at insanely low depths either, I routinely find medium and small veins near enough to the surface as to not be too troublesome to collect, you just don't know how to use the propick properly yet.

Out of curiousity, did you play through the early tiers of materials on b45? And if so, did you play in single player, or multiplayer? As of b46 the single and multiplayer seeds are synced up again, and that seems to have fixed some of the ore generation issues, but the ore generation in single player b45 really was just brutally bad... saving up ore was meaningless, because for most spawns there simply was no ore to save, and in some cases vital ores (like copper) were just flat out missing entirely from any location you could find without blind luck and days of wasted time digging random holes to bedrock.

I'm not just saying that based on my own perception of things, I went in and did some checking with worldedit to see what sort of distribution the ores were getting, and it was just silly... checking a 256x256 wide area for 30 blocks down from sealevel, I'd often get fewer than 1000 blocks of any ore whatsoever (out of nearly 2 million blocks)... and there was no guarantee those blocks were anything useful; they could easily have been something like Galena or Saltpeter.

[MDub 68]

Man I so agree about the ores. Me and a few friends started a new map on 45 and we found just enough zinc to make some tools, and a single copper vien deep down. After making a few dozen tools and a set of armor, the vein is almost gone, and ive spend 7 or 8 full stacks of torches exploring tens of thousands of meters of cave systems at the supposed ore generation level and ive manage to only find 6... thats right 6 blocks of cassidarite on the wall of an underground river. Funny that you guys say 'build random house, dig down' because thats exactly what Ive been doing. I've yet to find any surface ore on 45, and my objective on a new map has been to get away from spawn, build a crappy house, and dig strait down an hope I break through to a cave before hitting around 20-30 depth. Even when I do find the cave, way way more often than not, its just a hole for me to crawl in and die from the mobs, rather than a source of resources .

[Brodiggan 77]

Comparing a world generated in b45 with the same seed in b46 it's just really, really obvious that b45 actually was bugged (I'm guessing for the same reason the single player/multi player seeds weren't matching, though I can't prove that.) b46 still doesn't always make it easy to find ore, but it seems more evenly distributed (at least near the surface).

[elustran 23]

what do you consider a "gameable amount of time"?.

If you're looking for a mod that lets you have iron tools in about 20-30 minutes, I think you might be trying to play the wrong mod.

not all the ores are at insanely low depths either, I routinely find medium and small veins near enough to the surface as to not be too troublesome to collect, you just don't know how to use the propick properly yet.

you WILL be using stone tools primarily for quite a while, you ideally should be saving your low level ingots for higher tier alloys and use as little material as you can until you have enough of a stash to blow it on tools.

The higher level tools have much more durability, you won't have this issue if you manage your resources properly.

Even experienced players aren't even finding traces of metals when prospecting. The prospector's pick is easy enough to use once you've found a trace of something because it gives you a straightforward radius to triangulate, however that requires you to find even a trace of something. A gameable amount of time would be finding traces of some basic metals within an hour, and enough that you could move away from stone picks for long enough to start finding traces of other metals. It would be nice to have bronze in under 10 hours of play.

If I have time this weekend, I'll try the new version to see if oregen is changed, though, as others seem to be saying.

[Sarethor 3]

It's obvious that Pyrocantaes is very spun up about the state of ore generation, and I agree I've had - and continue to have - my own frustrations around it using a build 45 world.

A few things I'd like to remind everyone that are often overlooked:

• This mod is meant to be "believable" with regard to how things are done in the real world. No, it's not a flat out geology/mining simulation, but it's far closer to that than vanilla MC. It's meant to be a gradual slope of achievement with a potentially significant time and effort investment.
• The mods in a constant state of low-level development. What that means is that many game processes those of us who've been around awhile have come to understand can and will be changed - sometimes drastically. This happens through the adding of new functions/mechanics and changing existing ones even as far as a complete rewrite or removal.

What does this mean?

There's a high rate and depth of change in the code and everyone needs to have this context present in their mind when they find something they personally don't like about the way the mod is playing. In my experience, feedback should try to be phrased in a logical, reasoned manner and not be right-brained driven and reactionary. If you're pissed off about what's going on, NOW might NOT be the time to write something down. It's very likely that the feedback you're really trying to communicate will get lost in the noise and will not have the desired outcome.

Finally, at the end of the day, this is Bioxx' creation and he can and will choose to make it how he sees fit. If it's not fun for you and/or you're not willing to work with him to make the mod better, it'd probably be best served if you stopped playing it. Playing any game/mod that people are providing to you for free and spending many hours of their life to create/maintain does not give you license to rage at them because it's not what you want. The Golden Rule always applies.

Cheers,

Sarethor

[Jed1314 420]

It's obvious that Pyrocantaes is very spun up about the state of ore generation, and I agree I've had - and continue to have - my own frustrations around it using a build 45 world.

A few things I'd like to remind everyone that are often overlooked:

• This mod is meant to be "believable" with regard to how things are done in the real world. No, it's not a flat out geology/mining simulation, but it's far closer to that than vanilla MC. It's meant to be a gradual slope of achievement with a potentially significant time and effort investment.
• The mods in a constant state of low-level development. What that means is that many game processes those of us who've been around awhile have come to understand can and will be changed - sometimes drastically. This happens through the adding of new functions/mechanics and changing existing ones even as far as a complete rewrite or removal.

What does this mean?

There's a high rate and depth of change in the code and everyone needs to have this context present in their mind when they find something they personally don't like about the way the mod is playing. In my experience, feedback should try to be phrased in a logical, reasoned manner and not be right-brained driven and reactionary. If you're pissed off about what's going on, NOW might NOT be the time to write something down. It's very likely that the feedback you're really trying to communicate will get lost in the noise and will not have the desired outcome.

Finally, at the end of the day, this is Bioxx' creation and he can and will choose to make it how he sees fit. If it's not fun for you and/or you're not willing to work with him to make the mod better, it'd probably be best served if you stopped playing it. Playing any game/mod that people are providing to you for free and spending many hours of their life to create/maintain does not give you license to rage at them because it's not what you want. The Golden Rule always applies.

Cheers,

Sarethor

I see you did indeed make a similar post to mine. I totally agree with your sentiment obviously.

[Brodiggan 77]

Finally, at the end of the day, this is Bioxx' creation and he can and will choose to make it how he sees fit. If it's not fun for you and/or you're not willing to work with him to make the mod better, it'd probably be best served if you stopped playing it. Playing any game/mod that people are providing to you for free and spending many hours of their life to create/maintain does not give you license to rage at them because it's not what you want. The Golden Rule always applies.

Cheers,

Sarethor

"If you don't like it, then just stop playing" is not a reasonable response to criticism (even fairly heated criticism). What is the purpose of this forum if not to provide a place in which those who are trying out the mod can provide some feedback on their experience in using it? Pyrocantaes' criticism of one aspect of the mod is somewhat hyperbolic, but it's still feedback (and in my opinion at least, there were some pretty reasonable points to be made about ore gen as of b45 that may still be valid in b46). Yes, someone developing a mod like this is putting a lot of time and effort into something just for the love of it, and that should earn them some respect... but that does not mean they should be shielded from any negative criticisms of their creation... that's not going to help them, and it's not going to help their work.

[Pyrocantaes 8]

It's obvious that Pyrocantaes is very spun up about the state of ore generation, and I agree I've had - and continue to have - my own frustrations around it using a build 45 world.

A few things I'd like to remind everyone that are often overlooked:

• This mod is meant to be "believable" with regard to how things are done in the real world. No, it's not a flat out geology/mining simulation, but it's far closer to that than vanilla MC. It's meant to be a gradual slope of achievement with a potentially significant time and effort investment.
• The mods in a constant state of low-level development. What that means is that many game processes those of us who've been around awhile have come to understand can and will be changed - sometimes drastically. This happens through the adding of new functions/mechanics and changing existing ones even as far as a complete rewrite or removal.

What does this mean?

There's a high rate and depth of change in the code and everyone needs to have this context present in their mind when they find something they personally don't like about the way the mod is playing. In my experience, feedback should try to be phrased in a logical, reasoned manner and not be right-brained driven and reactionary. If you're pissed off about what's going on, NOW might NOT be the time to write something down. It's very likely that the feedback you're really trying to communicate will get lost in the noise and will not have the desired outcome.

Finally, at the end of the day, this is Bioxx' creation and he can and will choose to make it how he sees fit. If it's not fun for you and/or you're not willing to work with him to make the mod better, it'd probably be best served if you stopped playing it. Playing any game/mod that people are providing to you for free and spending many hours of their life to create/maintain does not give you license to rage at them because it's not what you want. The Golden Rule always applies.

Cheers,

Sarethor

To a certain extent yes I am .. hence the title of this thread. I've been playing this mod on and off since pre6 and I have come to like it's style and play style ..

However, when there is no reward for hours and hours of play it ceases to be a game, and becomes a simulation. If the development team want to write a simulator then I'm not going to complain as long as its sold a such.

However, Minecraft, even when modded by Terrafirma craft is still a game, and therefore it needs to be playable, and quite frankly B45 and to a certain extent B46 are neither. I don't want to stop development, but right now TFCraft is starting to attract a sizable following and the worst thing that came happen at this stage is to rush out betas a rapidly as possible, and b45 and b46 have all the hallmarks of rushed development.

Whilst certain elements of the community would love to see betas rushed out on a daily basis this isn't the way to win and keep fans of this mod. Take it form me, slowing down the development and spending twice a much time testing as coding/designing will pay massive dividends in the end.

Expecting bugs with betas is taken for granted, removing/breaking massive chunks of basic functionality is not.

[Sarethor 3]

"If you don't like it, then just stop playing" is not a reasonable response to criticism (even fairly heated criticism). What is the purpose of this forum if not to provide a place in which those who are trying out the mod can provide some feedback on their experience in using it? Pyrocantaes' criticism of one aspect of the mod is somewhat hyperbolic, but it's still feedback (and in my opinion at least, there were some pretty reasonable points to be made about ore gen as of b45 that may still be valid in b46). Yes, someone developing a mod like this is putting a lot of time and effort into something just for the love of it, and that should earn them some respect... but that does not mean they should be shielded from any negative criticisms of their creation... that's not going to help them, and it's not going to help their work.

We might have to disagree on the definition of "reasonable". Really, it speaks more to intent, than anything else.

Negative criticism is indeed a necessary part of the process and I've provided my own. In my experience, it's more important HOW you say something and this is especially true of negative feedback. I'm pretty sure Bioxx is open to feedback of all types, as based on evidence and not merely my say so. That doesn't mean the end user is going to provide the primary design direction, either.

Specifically, if your intent is provide perspective to the developer(s) about how you perceive the game's experience and provide opinions and suggestions on how to improve it, there's a generally acknowledged correct way to go about it. Again, just because you have a voice doesn't mean you can say whatever you want, however you want, without fear of your REAL intent being missed. It's on the speaker to ensure his message is crafted such that the right message is conveyed.

In the case where you don't really care if anything gets changed and your intent is to flaunt some sociopathic traits (and there's at least one of those who posts here often), feel free to use fallacies, hyperbolic terms and/or inflammatory language. It'll be summarily ignored, in most cases, and that's lose-lose even if it makes you feel better.

I'm not saying this is your MO, but speaking in general terms.