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Jed1314

Imaginative Combat Difficulty Tweaks

25 posts in this topic

I owe my thanks to Just_Another_Guy. Many of these ideas were developed by, and with, him.

Minecraft is easy. Even on hard, it is easy.

Intro:

The title of minecraft's primary game mode is a misnomer. By calling it “survivalâ€, mojang implied that survival would be a challenge. It is not a challenge. Not even close to one. Sure, I die because of the occasional creeper sneak attack, and once in a while a skeleton catches me at the wrong time, but that does not mean the game is hard. Dark Souls is hard. Even when you are prepared, you will still die. In minecraft, if you die when you are prepared for a fight, you have some serious questions to answer. There are a few factors to blame for this:

1) You are almost totally safe when it is sunny

2) It is easy to “knockback lock†mobs, meaning you can punch away for hours and never get hit

3) You can outrun anything

4) You are massively overpowered as soon as you surpass the stone age

I don’t think the mobs need more health, or damage. That is not interesting difficulty scaling. Skyrim did that, and it was crap. It turns hard mode into the worlds longest slugfest, where your skill allows you to outmanuever the enemy, but you have to hit them like 400 times to kill them. That isn’t difficult, it’s tedious. Some of this may be beyond the boundaries of do-ability, but at least it’s better than “give the skeleton a better bow !â€

New Features: Death ! It might happen for reasons other than fall damage, suffocation and lava ! :o

Challenging Combat ! Some of you might recognise this from other games.

Mob Behaviours All kinds of awkward things for Dunk to cringe at the thought of

Use of Existing Features: The Mobs ! That’s right, you can increase difficulty without adding new mobs :o

This one is going to break my usual format a bit. Instead of going through my above feature list (which is far too sarcastic to be effectively explained) I will explain my suggested overhauls, mob by mob.

The Player:

Yes, you are changing. A few simple tweaks will make you far less powerful.

Intermittent Knockback: Your attacks will only cause knockback occasionally, as opposed to all the time.

Knockbackable: Not the smoothest of expressions, but effectively, mobs will now be able to knock you back. Shoes on the other foot, eh ?

Zombies:

Our old friend the zombie. Effectively the “Tank†of the mob world. Slow, high health and designed to draw your fire.

Hordes: Not the most imaginative change, but zombies usually travel in packs (if one believes the media). This behaviour should be mirrored, with zombies usually spawning in groups of 3 - 5 and occasional “Hordes†of 10+ zombies as a special event. These groups will function as a “hive mindâ€, so it only takes one of them to take a dislike to you, and the rest will attack as well.

I get knocked down.....: Terrible musical references aside, zombies are supposed to be hardy bags of rotten flesh. In my horrible vision of minecraft, zombies will have a chance to get back up once killed, effectively spawning with half health. This will not continue indefinitely, a zombie can only rise once.

Speed: Zombies will stay their fine, lurching selves. The biggest change will be that zombies will now sprint a small distance before attacking, enticed by the concept of fresh brains no doubt...

Spiders:

The fast attacking “Rogue†of the MC world, this mob will focus on crowd control and debuffs, with damage as a secondary role.

Web-Shooting: You saw this coming from a country mile. Spiders will now shoot immobilising and slowly damaging acidic webs. The player must break free of these in order to move again. The frequency of these attacks will be limited to prevent “web lockingâ€

Disorientating Poison: Every time a spider attacks, it has a chance to “poison†the player. Giant spiders attacks are not a poisonous as the Cave Spiders, so it does not cause damage, but it does cause the screen to wave and rotate slightly, as your character experiences nausea and dizziness.

Scuttle Faster: Yep, spiders will now move with even greater speed, so that even a sprinting Steve will be hard pressed to escape.

Skeletons:

The “DPS†of the mobs. Designed as an out and out attack mob with slight debuff abilities, perhaps the most challenging vanilla mob. Their health will actually be nerfed, but I wouldn’t get your hopes up..

A sword: When the fighting gets close, the skeleton will use a sword, instead of a bow. That just makes sense.

Skirmishing: Skeletons will play smarter. Instead of simply running around shooting at you, they will attack you from a distance at first, softening you up from range, before coming in close to attack in melee. Rinse and repeat, who knows, one day you might actually lose.

Hamstring: Skeletons have a chance (when in melee) to “Hamstring†you, slowing your movement speed for 10 seconds. When this effect is triggered, the skeleton will automatically return to “ranged modeâ€.

Creepers:

It doesn’t get more offensive than this. I actually like creepers balance as it is, and I don’t feel they need buffed or nerfed. The intermittent knockback will make them hard enough

:P

Endermen:

In my opinion, nothing more than a relic of a game gone wrong. Endermen represent (to me) the point where MC started to go downhill.. Nonetheless, this forum isn’t the place for such bitterness, and TFC has turned the game around for me.

In terms of game mechanics, they represent something of a “wild card†as they don’t really fit into any traditional role.

Phase Shifting: All attacks have a chance to totally pass through the Enderman, without him teleporting away. This should allow them to mount a more sustained attack, while avoiding some damage.

Corruption: Poison on the deepest level of your very soul. It’ll take more than a bucket of milk to stop this. A slow DoT effect that applies from when the Enderman first attacks you, until you are out of range, or it dies.

The Drop: When an Enderman is nearly dead, he may use this attack. He teleports to you, then teleports both you and him about 15 blocks above where you were before. He then teleports away, leaving you to a long drop and a sudden stop.

Spider Jockeys:

Do I even have to spell out how hard these guys will be with both the spiders and skeletons abilities. Fun times

:)

Slimes:

Acidic: Slimes are highly acidic, so any attacks against them will do do double durability damage to your tools (if they are not stone). Additionally, any attacks against you do double damage against armour.

Growth: Slimes will grow over time, faster if they are near water or other slimes.

Comsume: Huge slimes may "consume" the player, engulfing them. The player will receive fairly hefty DoT until he hacks his way out of the slime. This will kill it outright, so it is a risky attack, for the slime, but devastating if timed properly.

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Slimes: Do slimes still spawn in TFC ? I have yet to see one...

Yes, they do
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I like this idea a lot. The endermen sound like they are way worse than creepers with this idea! This will definitely make one of the most challenging mods even more challenging!

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YES.

Maybe, as i think i have said somewhere before, the slimes could grow over time and they can poison you as they are acidic. And also, for the same reason, they can eat through your weapons durability faster than any other mob.

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This just sounds horrific

I like it

Thats the idea anyway ;):P

Yes, they do

Right, amended the post to alter slimes as well, don't suppose I missed any other mobs ?

I like this idea a lot. The endermen sound like they are way worse than creepers with this idea! This will definitely make one of the most challenging mods even more challenging!

As I said, that is the goal :)

I don't want the game to be impossible, just to present an equal challenge on all fronts :P

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YES.

Maybe, as i think i have said somewhere before, the slimes could grow over time and they can poison you as they are acidic. And also, for the same reason, they can eat through your weapons durability faster than any other mob.

That was what I was going to add :)

A lot of this draws on your ideas for my "Hardcore Mode" suggestion, so I really should credit you :)

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there was no real need, but thanks :D i feel important now

EDIT: just for players in difficult hard, creepers may, very rarely, spawn in groups or hordes, just like zombies do. additionaly, also in that difficult, they don't receibe damage from explosion.

http://minebot.net/pix/440.png

^

|

|

A very unlucky guy example

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there was no real need, but thanks :D i feel important now

EDIT: just for players in difficult hard, creepers may, very rarely, spawn in groups or hordes, just like zombies do. additionaly, also in that difficult, they don't receibe damage from explosion.

http://minebot.net/pix/440.png

^

|

|

A very unlucky guy example

Haha :P Very unlucky indeed :P

I hesitate to add creeper swarms :S .. I like the idea, but they would be a disaster for the landscape, and I think widely opposed by the other forum users :/

You are important, certainly in the suggestions thread, just like everyone else :)

Everybody is important because we can all contribute to ideas, and really make these suggestions belong to the community. Those are the best ones :)

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Well, that's the reason why the swarm only spawns in hard... i mean, when you're playing in a mode, you're accepting the risks it means. But yeah, just a though i had :P

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I read, "I get knocked down..." and imagined that you were going to suggest zombie attacks have a chance of knocking the player down, rendering them susceptible to being jumped by the whole horde. This should totally happen.

In regards to what you actually wrote...what if at night zombies had a XX% chance of getting up with YY% of their health after ZZ seconds of sleeping on the floor. Variables because math is fun. Difficulty would determine how many times zombies could revive, as well as how often it happens.

Also Dunk should make Creepers avoid player line of sight behind obstacles, and move slightly faster when out of sight. :U

Also an odd idea. The other mobs are also going to receive genders somewhere down the line, right? (Not sure...) What if creepers exploded based on gender, or something? Like, females become able to supercharge at will after having their offspring. Males could be smaller, and faster.

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mobs are also going to receive genders somewhere down the line, right?

Every guy who has ever searched "enderwoman" is gonna get an instant boner if it is added to TFcraft... XD

Now seriously, +1 to the three ideas, though maybe the first one is hard to code... but worth it :3

Maybe being armored with a heavy metal can increase the chances of being knocked down... which would be balanced for the fact that every single guy that can waste metal and time in armor will have made at least a sword or two.

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Or maybe when the zombies get knocked down you have the chance to finish them while they are rendered useless?

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I rethought it. When zombies are knocked down they regain full health and more instantly but remain on the ground defenseless for x seconds. If you attack them than the health they have on the ground depletes. After x seconds the zombie will take his last stand with increased attack, defense, and swiftness (adrenaline runs through them) and the health that you left them with while you were beating them up on the ground.

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I rethought it. When zombies are knocked down they regain full health and more instantly but remain on the ground defenseless for x seconds. If you attack them than the health they have on the ground depletes. After x seconds the zombie will take his last stand with increased attack, defense, and swiftness (adrenaline runs through them) and the health that you left them with while you were beating them up on the ground.

Just a note, adrenaline couldn't run through them, they are dead so i doubt they produce hormones or even have a functional circulatory system for getting those hormones in action. So... yeah, if they had swiftness, it wouldn't be for that. Maybe for anger because you knocked them down? :P

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Yeah I know adrenaline is the first thing that popped in my mind for increased stats. :D

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Once again, a stellar suggestion that leaves my pants slightly tighter than previous.

A word, though-

Nix endermen entirely. If my suspicions are correct, then Bioxx will be terminating the End (and hopefully replacing it with The Lament/Wailing, but I digress). Endermen therefore no longer have an origin, and are completely useless.

On zombles; perhaps their regenerative nature will be determined on spawning, with a random value 0-7 (or not, idk) assigned to them when they pop in. Zombies with a 'respawn value' of 0 will come back and zombies with any other value will not. When a respawning zombie does die the first time, it goes red and falls over like normal, but remains in the 'red supine' position for a few seconds (this is the part where Crysyn throws something at me), maybe 5-8, before the animation plays in reverse and it returns to being a zombie with its respawn value set to 1 by default.

I hate to mention the 'T' word around here, but for the spider poison, Azanor did a wonderful job of it using shaders for when you're hit with a wisp attack. Perhaps something along those lines wouldn't go amiss.

Also, I love your idea to up the skeleton AI, but it's a bit too tempting to just get your own bow and out-snipe them. Perhaps they'll randomly spawn with bits of stab-resistant armor like chain mail?

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I read, "I get knocked down..." and imagined that you were going to suggest zombie attacks have a chance of knocking the player down, rendering them susceptible to being jumped by the whole horde. This should totally happen.

In regards to what you actually wrote...what if at night zombies had a XX% chance of getting up with YY% of their health after ZZ seconds of sleeping on the floor. Variables because math is fun. Difficulty would determine how many times zombies could revive, as well as how often it happens.

Also Dunk should make Creepers avoid player line of sight behind obstacles, and move slightly faster when out of sight. :U

Also an odd idea. The other mobs are also going to receive genders somewhere down the line, right? (Not sure...) What if creepers exploded based on gender, or something? Like, females become able to supercharge at will after having their offspring. Males could be smaller, and faster.

I like all these, particularly the creeper LoS one :) Haha, if the player got knocked down, it sure would be brutal :P

As regards the sexes, I didn't know the hostiles were getting genders ? :o

Variables are always good :)

Every guy who has ever searched "enderwoman" is gonna get an instant boner if it is added to TFcraft... XD

Now seriously, +1 to the three ideas, though maybe the first one is hard to code... but worth it :3

Maybe being armored with a heavy metal can increase the chances of being knocked down... which would be balanced for the fact that every single guy that can waste metal and time in armor will have made at least a sword or two.

I can see that being an option certainly. (Although when wearing armor it's actually harder to stay standing :P)

I rethought it. When zombies are knocked down they regain full health and more instantly but remain on the ground defenseless for x seconds. If you attack them than the health they have on the ground depletes. After x seconds the zombie will take his last stand with increased attack, defense, and swiftness (adrenaline runs through them) and the health that you left them with while you were beating them up on the ground.

Like a "regen" period, after which they get back up, and you can attack them on the ground ?

I like this, and with a horde coming after you, it wouldn't be too easy to kill them while they were down :)

Once again, a stellar suggestion that leaves my pants slightly tighter than previous.

A word, though-

Nix endermen entirely. If my suspicions are correct, then Bioxx will be terminating the End (and hopefully replacing it with The Lament/Wailing, but I digress). Endermen therefore no longer have an origin, and are completely useless.

On zombles; perhaps their regenerative nature will be determined on spawning, with a random value 0-7 (or not, idk) assigned to them when they pop in. Zombies with a 'respawn value' of 0 will come back and zombies with any other value will not. When a respawning zombie does die the first time, it goes red and falls over like normal, but remains in the 'red supine' position for a few seconds (this is the part where Crysyn throws something at me), maybe 5-8, before the animation plays in reverse and it returns to being a zombie with its respawn value set to 1 by default.

I hate to mention the 'T' word around here, but for the spider poison, Azanor did a wonderful job of it using shaders for when you're hit with a wisp attack. Perhaps something along those lines wouldn't go amiss.

Also, I love your idea to up the skeleton AI, but it's a bit too tempting to just get your own bow and out-snipe them. Perhaps they'll randomly spawn with bits of stab-resistant armor like chain mail?

Thanks :) I seem to be on a roll recently :P

I was going for a kind of "shaders sensory assault", so that sounds like it would fit the bill.

That sounds like a good idea re the skeletons. The temptation to outsnip them would indeed be overwhelming

The idea of zombies spawning with "values" makes sense, I don't know whether variables or this are easier from a programming perspective, but either will work

Oh, and trust me, I really wanted to cut the endermen. Here's hoping they do indeed get replaced by Lament.

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So for the idea that I posted. A zombie dies. He has full health on the ground. I start beating him with a rose :P . When he gets back up with increased stats he remains with the health I left him with.

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Personally I'd rather see something like

for mobs, but probably lower the chance of an amputation. If that is too op, maybe just a nice touch like this.
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Personally I'd rather see something like

for mobs, but probably lower the chance of an amputation. If that is too op, maybe just a nice touch like this.

While both those mods are cool, and I am a fan, what do they have to do with making mobs more interesting and challenging to fight ?

Interesting I would give you, challenging... Not so much :P

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urk. This is detailed.

I feel bad for shooting a lot of this down, but we're not going to change all of these things for better gameplay. :/

I think we might just go ahead and eliminate knockback altogether, so when you hit a zombie, it isn't deterred from attacking you. Obviously, this will be combined with the combat and damage changes that are planned.

This is not an RPG. This has to be made extremely clear.

We are looking into eliminating all things that feel unnatural about combat, possibly adding some new features and powering up the undead, but don't expect super-powered mobs with buffs or anything like that.

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While both those mods are cool, and I am a fan, what do they have to do with making mobs more interesting and challenging to fight ?

Interesting I would give you, challenging... Not so much :P

Sorry, this was in response to the ideas of zombies rising, providing an alternative way to get rid of them for good. If you want challenging you could get rid of their hp and just rely on the % chance to dismember, or (probably better) give the body parts different hp, and get rid of the % chance to amputate. This and the post's original suggestions would definitely make combat more interesting and challenging, and require strategy (take out the head to finish them off, or temp. disable them (arm or leg) to deal with the rest of the swarm).

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urk. This is detailed.

I feel bad for shooting a lot of this down, but we're not going to change all of these things for better gameplay. :/

I think we might just go ahead and eliminate knockback altogether, so when you hit a zombie, it isn't deterred from attacking you. Obviously, this will be combined with the combat and damage changes that are planned.

This is not an RPG. This has to be made extremely clear.

We are looking into eliminating all things that feel unnatural about combat, possibly adding some new features and powering up the undead, but don't expect super-powered mobs with buffs or anything like that.

No need to feel bad for shooting it down man, the work I put into these suggestions is a labour of love, I'm going to be honest and say that my priority is actually to ensure I am happy with it, rather than that it gets added. The reason I post so many suggestions is that I have a lot of ideas and I like talking about them with others and refining them. The reason I post them here is that it gives me a solid framework to base them on, and I might help improve my favourite mod in some small way. You need to bring realism to these suggestions, and I appreciate you doing it :)

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