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RaZorEdge112

Bloomery Mold Patterns

32 posts in this topic

Here's an idea,

I think bioxx should add a system in the bloomery where you can make mold patterns which are basically molds which you can place next to the bloomery and when ore smelts it will fill the mold with the amount of metal required to create the pattern built in to the mold, like a pick for example. You can take a metal pickaxe with 8 ceramic molds surrounding the pick in a crafting table and it will provide you with a pickaxe mold pattern, while removing a bit of durability from the pick itself. The mold pattern can be placed next to the broomery block, and when ore smelts it will automatically fill the mold until its full, when it is you can see the mold red and you have to wait until it cools down, then right click and it would provide you with a totally metal pick (though requiring a little more metal due to the metal handle). Each smelt removes a bit of durability on the tool to be molded, until the mold breaks down. Tell me what you think of the idea, i think its a good one, maybe, IDK.

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Nice thought, but cast tools are quite poor quality. This is because the metal cools as-is, whereas in proper blacksmithing, the metal is treated, hammered and shaped in the proper manner so that applied stress is properly distributed. The cast metal tools would have a very poor strength as opposed to true smithed tools. If we DID do this, you would be sacrificing tool strength and longevity for ease of production.

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Nice thought, but cast tools are quite poor quality. This is because the metal cools as-is, whereas in proper blacksmithing, the metal is treated, hammered and shaped in the proper manner so that applied stress is properly distributed. The cast metal tools would have a very poor strength as opposed to true smithed tools. If we DID do this, you would be sacrificing tool strength and longevity for ease of production.

Which is what they used to do for swords.

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Well i guess it would allow for quick production of tools for shop in SMP servers or personal needs without having to do much work. I think the fact that it eases the creation while losing durability and strength does balance it out.

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Seriously, though. I can't remember the source, but I remember reading about a mass grave that had been found that was linked to a medieval battle. Almost all the swords that were in the grave were cast iron.

The rank and file, if they had swords, had cheap, mass produced swords. The important people had the stuff that took time and skill to make.

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Seriously, though. I can't remember the source, but I remember reading about a mass grave that had been found that was linked to a medieval battle. Almost all the swords that were in the grave were cast iron.

The rank and file, if they had swords, had cheap, mass produced swords. The important people had the stuff that took time and skill to make.

exactly. You want easy shit, you get low quality shit. Thats generally how the world works.
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exactly. You want easy shit, you get low quality shit. Thats generally how the world works.

well... yes, actually. I think that's the entire point of this thread.

We can choose between a crappy cast iron sword that'll last us a few nights, or we can forge a wrought iron sword that we can pass down to our fucking kids

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Would this create a bunch of new (but identically named) tool items with half (example) as much total durability...or would it tools created through this method start with a half empty durability bar? The second option would allow cast tools tools to be repaired, and improved, if a system like that is ever established.

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Would this create a bunch of new (but identically named) tool items with half (example) as much total durability...or would it tools created through this method start with a half empty durability bar? The second option would allow cast tools tools to be repaired, and improved, if a system like that is ever established.

I say name them differently. Just add 'cast' to the front of every name

It's not like we have a shortage of item IDs

Or hell, You could even use the metadata.

And personally I think cast items should have 1/4 durability and 1/2 effectiveness (mining speed, armor rating, damage, whatever)

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Throwing the word "cast" in fromt of them seems to fit the bill well. 1/4 durability seems a little harsh I think 1/2 would actually keep them plausable.

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this is all well and good until bioxx says no lol. Nice try though, guys.

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this is all well and good until bioxx says no lol. Nice try though, guys.

shit shot down already?

where's the love guys

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You know, everyone is talking about cast metal being weak, but that's not really always true. Some cast metals are more prone to fracture (cast iron being the big example) because of the larger crystal structure that forms as they cool, but they can still be quite strong under compression. Even high quality cannons were commonly made out of cast iron up into the late 18th century.

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You know, everyone is talking about cast metal being weak, but that's not really always true. Some cast metals are more prone to fracture (cast iron being the big example) because of the larger crystal structure that forms as they cool, but they can still be quite strong under compression. Even high quality cannons were commonly made out of cast iron up into the late 18th century.

I think that's less because they wanted to make them that way, and more because they didn't really have a better way of making them.

The Bessemer process didn't come into existence until around the time of the American Civil War, and it was the first cheap way to make steel.

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I think that's less because they wanted to make them that way, and more because they didn't really have a better way of making them.

Bronze cannons predated iron, so there were other methods of manufacturing cannons. Cast iron cannons were just easier to manufacture while still being of reasonable quality (although they had definite disadvantages in terms of reliability and weight).

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Cast iron makes for poor swords due to the (relatively) astronomical carbon content of the metal. This makes the iron very *hard* but not very *tough* at all. The different cooling rates and large grain sizes can be partially compensated for through the application of heat treatment techniques.

Cast iron cannons were superior to cast bronze cannons, however, as Cevkiv rightly points out, the only reason they used iron and not steel is becuase they had no way of obtaining cheap castable steel.

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Cast iron makes for poor swords due to the (relatively) astronomical carbon content of the metal. This makes the iron very *hard* but not very *tough* at all. The different cooling rates and large grain sizes can be partially compensated for through the application of heat treatment techniques.

Cast iron was not great for use in a sword (or any other tool that needed a sharp, flexible edge), but it was perfectly acceptable in a lot of other uses. The point I was trying to make was that the broad assumption that any cast tools would be fragile and inferior to forged tools isn't entirely correct. (So it might be more appropriate, assuming something like this was implemented, to just limit what tools could be cast rather than give all cast tools 1/4 durability or something.)

Cast iron cannons were superior to cast bronze cannons, however, as Cevkiv rightly points out, the only reason they used iron and not steel is becuase they had no way of obtaining cheap castable steel.

Okay? I'm not sure how the point "cast iron cannons weren't as good as steel cannons" affects the point I was making (which was that cast iron was tough enough it was used in cannons for hundreds of years, and was even the preferred material because it was easier to manufacture). I wasn't trying to say cast iron was some super material, just that people weren't giving it (and other cast metals, like bronze) enough credit in this discussion.

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Cast iron was not great for use in a sword (or any other tool that needed a sharp, flexible edge), but it was perfectly acceptable in a lot of other uses. The point I was trying to make was that the broad assumption that any cast tools would be fragile and inferior to forged tools isn't entirely correct. (So it might be more appropriate, assuming something like this was implemented, to just limit what tools could be cast rather than give all cast tools 1/4 durability or something.)

Cast tools are generally fagile. Thats why the vast, vast majority of tools are drop forged. It's the brittleness that is the issue. In tools where impact isn't an issue, cast material would perhaps be acceptable. In fact, in terms of wear resistance they should perform better than steel due to the hardness of them, but cast iron is not tough, so a cast hammer, for example, would crack far easier than a forged equivalent. If you can show me a tool (in this game) where impact is not an issue, I willl be surprised.

Okay? I'm not sure how the point "cast iron cannons weren't as good as steel cannons" affects the point I was making (which was that cast iron was tough enough it was used in cannons for hundreds of years, and was even the preferred material because it was easier to manufacture). I wasn't trying to say cast iron was some super material, just that people weren't giving it (and other cast metals, like bronze) enough credit in this discussion.

Of course cast iron is strong enough to make a cannon. You can make a cannon out of wood. Cast tools are not given much credit because cast material (especially cast iron which is vastly infererior to steel in tool making) does not make good tools when compared to forged alternatives. They wouldn't mine any slower, but they definitely would break faster.

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If you can show me a tool (in this game) where impact is not an issue, I willl be surprised.

Well, the first thing that springs to mind is the hoe. Admittedly, I can't think of too many others.

Cast tools are not given much credit because cast material (especially cast iron which is vastly infererior to steel in tool making) does not make good tools when compared to forged alternatives.

See, this is what I'm talking about. This is true for cast iron for some uses when compared to forged iron, but this definitely does not hold true for all cast metals or even all types of cast iron for all uses. Some metals perform quite well when cast as tools (bronze and brass, for example), and even cast iron performs reasonably for some uses when properly treated.

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Well, the first thing that springs to mind is the hoe. Admittedly, I can't think of too many others.

Fair do's, I will give you that. Hoe's would probably have suitable properties when cast.

See, this is what I'm talking about. This is true for cast iron for some uses when compared to forged iron, but this definitely does not hold true for all cast metals or even all types of cast iron for all uses. Some metals perform quite well when cast as tools (bronze and brass, for example).

Generally speaking, forged iron alloys will have superior material properties to cast ones. Bronze and brass (as copper alloys) would indeed be considered outside of this, as the carbon content is not an issue and I am fairly sure they share the work hardening nature of copper. But then we could also point out that cold worked copper will make better tools than hot worked copper due to work hardening, so we should really cold work the ingots into the tools we want when using copper. Deciding which metals are better forged and which are better casted is something that would need to be assessed on a case by case basis :P

I actually will criticise myself for speaking in such certainties earlier. The world of metals is a complex one, and each metal is suited to a different approach etc. It is far too complex for a game to mirror with any realism and still be fun, in fact :P

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Cast iron swords are incredibly fragile. I've seen people break them by swinging them into a concrete pole.

Instead of tools, why not make cast iron arrowheads and javelin heads or other small things of that nature? That would give it a function without trying to balance effectiveness with cost of regular tools.

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Cast iron swords are incredibly fragile. I've seen people break them by swinging them into a concrete pole.

I've seen people break them by swinging them into a concrete pole.

concrete pole.

Felt neccessary.

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Felt neccessary.

Not really. The fact they broke is indeed testament to the brittle nature of cast iron. From my experience with swords, axes and other metal weapons, I'd expect a nasty chip in the blade and a very firm deflection, but I wouldn't expect it to break necessarily. Of course, it depends what way he hit the pole and such, but a good western blade should flex. If it was a katana or other thick eastern blade, not so much.

Of course katanas can cut through concrete. My granddad saw a Japanese guy do it in the pacific >.< .. God I hate katanas for what they have done to the sword >.<

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I actually will criticise myself for speaking in such certainties earlier. The world of metals is a complex one, and each metal is suited to a different approach etc. It is far too complex for a game to mirror with any realism and still be fun, in fact :P

Fair enough. Maybe a reasonable somewhat-realistic-but-not-overly-so solution would be to allow the casting of early tier tools (tin, copper, bronze and the like) but not any of the iron based metals?

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My point is when does taking a sword to concrete become a testament to it's effectiveness as a weapon. Swords are not designed to cut through concrete. I'm not arguing that cast iron is not brittle but the test itself is what irritates me.

As for the Katana, give me a European sword over a katana anyday.

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