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Bioxx

Kingdoms Brainstorming

899 posts in this topic

Kingdoms aka Beta 3 will be the next phase of TFC development. As usual I will no doubt add many other things along the way but that is what I aim for Beta 3 to contain. This thread is for brainstorming ideas related to this.

I won't be starting Beta 3 any time soon. Others have rightly pointed out that there is much work to still be done with Beta 2. Heck, agriculture still isn't done(its boring so its slow going).

What is Kingdoms about?

Kingdoms will be aiming to add a way for players to establish cities and towns in such a way that economies and politics can enter the realm of TerraFirmaCraft.

By Economy you mean..

Yes I mean money. There have been several threads related to this and I would like to see the best ideas brought forth here.

By Politics you mean..

This is purely an SMP game aspect. I'd like to see server enforced towns and land ownership etc.

Will I be forced to play with these rules? Added 8/10

No. If you want to play with no rules, then that's fine. Towns will never be required. I plan to give the players as much control as I can over the systems involved. As many of you have rightly noted, the players will do a much better job creating gameplay than I ever could myself.

Aren't there more important things to be worked on? Added 8/10

There are plenty of things that need to be done still. Just as I've done with Beta 2, I'll be working on other things as I go along. This idea however has me excited for the possibilities, which is why it will be the primary goal of Beta 3.

Will there be NPC's to fill roles in cities? Added 8/10

Probably not unless a very compelling reason is brought forth. I would rather see players take advantage of the systems than have a computer controlled NPC doing everything.

What is the Home Stone and why do we need a block to represent the town?Added 8/13

I think a lot of you are failing to grasp why we need a stone Home Stone in the first place. First of all the name is taken from the World of Gor series of books. Secondly, I like to let things be represented in the world whenever possible. From a gameplay perspective, it offers a way for players to easily learn what they need to about a town such as laws or w/e else. I highly dislike the player having to type in commands into chat in order to play the game so they need. Also it offers something concrete in the world in which the supporting code is operated around. If I try to abstract out things such as borders of a town etc(while possible) it becomes a lot harder.

I will update this post now and again with revised information. Please keep all posts pertaining to these themes in this topic.

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Interesting, very interesting, This would add a totally new thing, the ability to not start totally out in the middle of nowhere and be able to do nothing. I like this, A lot. Does the economy include a SSP trading system like that of Minecraft 1.3?

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Interesting, very interesting, This would add a totally new thing, the ability to not start totally out in the middle of nowhere and be able to do nothing. I like this, A lot. Does the economy include a SSP trading system like that of Minecraft 1.3?

If/How npcs enter the equation at all remains to be seen. This will not make starting the game any different unless you're starting on a server that has been around for a while. There will be some trading mechanics to facilitate an economy.

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Will there be any sort of mailing system like the forestry mailboxes or the IC2 trade-o-mats?

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Will there be any sort of mailing system like the forestry mailboxes or the IC2 trade-o-mats?

That's what this thread is for :P suggest these types of things.
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Holy shit, I've got the perfect thing for this! (/ruffles through suggestion forum)

Okay, here's something I posted earlier in one of those suggestion threads for economies. Super relevant.

I would highly recommend you all take a look at CivCraft (official subreddit -> www.reddit.com/r/civcraft )

It DOES NOT use TerrafirmaCraft (though there is talk of either implementing it if/when the map resets or implementing their own tech tree) but its goal is to simulate societies and economies through minimal moderation by admins and implementation of specific mods that allow players to reinforce blocks (using smooth stone, iron, and diamond, in order of increasing protection) implement security systems, and imprison players. It depends on arbitration among players and "societies" emerging to protect shared interests.

CivCraft was designed by a few Anarcho-Capitalists, but currently has individuals from very unique political backgrounds playing, including communists, libertarian-socialists, facists, monarchists, and moderates. Huge cities have risen and fallen and much drama has been had.

What it's proven to me more than anything is that in order to have a Minecraft server that accurately simulates economies, less intervention is better. Letting players arbitrate themselves and form communities out of necessity results in a much more interesting and "realistic" scenario. Currencies emerge naturally (the "Redstone-Market" helped push for the adoption of redstone as a major currency in Columbia, before Columbia's eventual collapse) but bartering is still common. Communes and capitalist cities emerge from different philosophical background but out of the same necessity (if a griefer imprisons you and sends you to The End, it's useful to have either a group of friends, or a payed security team to help break you out.)

TL;DR: Go to reddit.com/r/civcraft to learn about the awesome social/political/economic Minecraft experiment that is CivCraft.

Bioxx, contact ttk2 (reddit.com/u/ttk2), the developer and visionary behind CivCraft, about how you two could possibly merge CivCraft and TFCraft, or work out a way to implement TFCraft into CivCraft.

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Not a fan only because of the number of useless ores still and Agriculture has barely started.

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I have plans to use the Factions plugin because of its simplicity and user control. No admin should ever have to fix issues with a group.

But I have to agree with Holy_Shield, this is too soon to release another aspect of the game when there is still a lot to finish with Metallurgy, Agriculture and Construction.

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Imho, a prerequisite to any society or economic implementations to the mod would be adding protections to chests, forges, sluices, bloomeries, etc. Someone else mentioned the mail system from forestry. SirSengir has done a great job with the protection on the machines within forestry as well, and would serve as a good model. Basically, anything with an inventory is owned by whomever placed it in the world, that person can toggle if it's public access, private use but the items in it are visible to all, or completely private. It should go with out saying, but only the owner can pick up or destroy the machines as well. (Again, ofcourse OPs would supersede that rule)

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If you're going for SMP portions, there could be ways to set things on fire, and ways to fight that fire with water (No, not hoses per se, water buckets, fireproofing buildings beforehand, etc)

Maybe fire wouldn't destroy blocks, but make "fire-damaged" blocks that are ugly, don't count as shelter, and are prone to collapse. Being close to a fire would cause mild heat damage (slow ticking), smoke could pool up in poorly-ventilated houses, fire could affect crops. What's the difficulty in holding a strong town together if raiders can just dig out some blocks?

Also, I'd advise making creepers not drop explosives. Or reworking how they fight, even. Explosives make far too easy griefing tools and should be difficult to obtain. They also probably shouldn't stack, so if a group of raiders created enough gunpowder from sulfur and saltpetre, etc, they could have explosives, but in limited supply. I also feel like explosives in that situation could stand to have a little buff. Most types of stone make them near-useless, but they'd really do a number on bricks, since they're not solid stone.

Of course, this is also based on having the Construction Update retool how buildings and such are made.

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Imho, a prerequisite to any society or economic implementations to the mod would be adding protections to chests, forges, sluices, bloomeries, etc. Someone else mentioned the mail system from forestry. SirSengir has done a great job with the protection on the machines within forestry as well, and would serve as a good model. Basically, anything with an inventory is owned by whomever placed it in the world, that person can toggle if it's public access, private use but the items in it are visible to all, or completely private. It should go with out saying, but only the owner can pick up or destroy the machines as well. (Again, ofcourse OPs would supersede that rule)

The problem with complete protection for anything privately owned is that it just isn't realistic. What you need is a way to reinforce blocks/chests so they take a lot more effort for possible thieves to destroy, but still allows them to do that if you do not adequately protect your property.

Also, there must be a way to imprison individuals. "Killing" someone and having them teleport to a preset "saferoom" would be one way to solve that problem. Basically what you want for something like this is to allow players to moderate, without actual Mod interference.

What I'm saying is, CHECK OUT CIVCRAFT. It's already got all this worked out, seriously.

But I don't think we should focus on the multiplayer aspect of TFCraft until the core game has reached a reasonable level of stability (much less frequent updates, need for map resets hopefully becoming a "once every few months" sort of deal, instead of every week). The more a server has to be reset, the less established cities and communities become, the less "realistic" the game becomes.

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I really think the core of TFCraft should be focused ON SMP. I really don't like minecraft SSP, because of how empty it is. There is nothing to do once you get your 30 some odd diamonds, and go blow up the ender dragon. Really, Multiplayer is what this is geared towards, building more of a communal approach with people of different talents helping each other out.

Also, i think on the point of protecting things, it should be completely open, so if someone steals and gets caught, a justice system has to be implemented.

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The problem with complete protection for anything privately owned is that it just isn't realistic.

Realism isn't a focus of the mod, neither should it be. A mechanic whose reason for being is 'realism' should be shot down immideately. We need mechanical gameplay reasons why something should be a specific way.

I am completely for block protection. Reenforcement doesn't work in SMP for the same reason seasons, animal growth and trees are funky in SMP: The timescale is just completely different. When you are logged off it doesn't matter how long it takes to reasonably break a block, attackers have hours to bypass security. Walls can be built over, tunnels can go under fortifications. The world is too malleable for the concept of free open access to everything. We need plots of block protection.

I agree on the general thought of it being too early to think of this stuff. There are many awkward systems in place that either need to be fleshed out or brought up slightly to deal with other systems. It's nice to think about how this will eventually play out when refining these mechanics, but too many aspects are unknown.

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I really think the core of TFCraft should be focused ON SMP. I really don't like minecraft SSP, because of how empty it is. There is nothing to do once you get your 30 some odd diamonds, and go blow up the ender dragon. Really, Multiplayer is what this is geared towards, building more of a communal approach with people of different talents helping each other out.

Also, i think on the point of protecting things, it should be completely open, so if someone steals and gets caught, a justice system has to be implemented.

The only problem is that it's far, far easier to steal, vandalize, and kill people in Minecraft and TFC than in real life. And on a server, it's not like everyone will always be online, so people who want to act like barbarians will just wait until people are offline before destroying their house and stealing their stuff. If no one sees it, it's impossible to know who did it or prevent it without some kind of protection.
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Question...is all of this only for smp or just the politics part? if not, will there need to be separate mechanics for both single and multi player kingdoms and economy? seems towns and cities may need to function differently in some ways....maybe not...i dont know. certainly economy and/or stock exchange would.

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Realism isn't a focus of the mod, neither should it be. A mechanic whose reason for being is 'realism' should be shot down immideately. We need mechanical gameplay reasons why something should be a specific way.

I am completely for block protection. Reenforcement doesn't work in SMP for the same reason seasons, animal growth and trees are funky in SMP: The timescale is just completely different. When you are logged off it doesn't matter how long it takes to reasonably break a block, attackers have hours to bypass security. Walls can be built over, tunnels can go under fortifications. The world is too malleable for the concept of free open access to everything. We need plots of block protection.

I agree on the general thought of it being too early to think of this stuff. There are many awkward systems in place that either need to be fleshed out or brought up slightly to deal with other systems. It's nice to think about how this will eventually play out when refining these mechanics, but too many aspects are unknown.

I know I sound like a broken record, but check out CivCraft. They have a method of block reinforcement that honestly works.

Here's a list of mods the CivCraft server uses: http://civcraft.org/doku.php?id=mods

And here are the important ones:

Citadel

Precious Stones (Snitch Block)

Physical Shop

PrisonBed (Has been replaced with PrisonPerl, but that requires access to the End)

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Got busy in here quick. I should make a big point that I won't be doing any of this until Beta 2 is done i.e. not any time soon.

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The problem with complete protection for anything privately owned is that it just isn't realistic.


True, it isn't realistic, but neither is the threat of being able to log out of the game to avoid being in jail. Log back in a week or 2 once your sentence is up.
In reality, morality and a real threat of punishment play a part in every sane person's conscience decisions. On a server, you don't really have to fear any punishment, you can always move to a different server. Morality will still play some factor to people that have built a relationship with others on the server, but to many they are hiding behind their game name and persona, what other people within the gamethink of them makes little difference.

I know I sound like a broken record, but check out CivCraft. They have a method of block reinforcement that honestly works.

Here's a list of mods the CivCraft server uses: http://civcraft.org/doku.php?id=mods

And here are the important ones:

Citadel

Precious Stones (Snitch Block)

Physical Shop

PrisonBed (Has been replaced with PrisonPerl, but that requires access to the End)


While the snitch block seems nice, great I know who stole everything out of my chests, now I have to hope he logs in again, then I need to hunt him down, and kill him in order to get him put in game jail.

In game penalties are never going to be a strong enough deterrent for a real society to form on a server of people that don't know each other personally. The only hopes of having a civil server is by running with a small whitelist, running it private with only RL friends or by allowing some absolute protection.

Protected plots of land would be a good option as well. You could purchase the plot from the admin/mayor/steward who ever would be in charge or the current owner of the land.

Protecting the plot itself, would protect orchards, and farm fields from theft as well. Having enough land for the orchard or farm would cost more then just having enough land for a house. Again, having the option to open the rights to other people would be nice, someone that owns a farm, could sell mineral rights to someone else that enjoys the mining end of the game, but they would still own the land.
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Chests .... Yes chests. Rework some of the coding so that when you die or logout a "<player's name> Chest" appears where the event occurred. It would be a special chest that cann't have items placed in it only taken out. It would be large enough for the player's entire inventory and would despawn once it's empty. This would prevent item despawning if you died and DCed or if a griefer stole your stuff and never logged on again. In addition to this make a new block that would tell you the location of a named player or last recorded location. This "Bounty Hunter" block would be expensive; however, a city or kingdom would all pitch in to make one as part of law-enforcement. So picture this, a person breaks into your house (snitch block records name,) steals your stuff (even what you had in your inventory,) runs away, gets bored (logs off) or let's his guard down (thinks he got away with it,) you hop on and find things stolen, you pursue justice yourself or alert the players you are paying to enforce the laws, they investigate (check the snitch block's log,) find the suspect's name, locate the crimial (check the bounty hunter block,) reclaim your items and jail the criminial.

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Bioxx: Thats a good thing it looks you got a lot of work left.

We have quite a problem here really. On one end we have beleivable, but prone to greifers. On the other hand we have the everything is protected strategy that would destroy the idea of warfare. Neither of which would be desirable. Protected land would kill the warfare and protected chests would eventually clutter a world with indestructible useless blocks. The snitch blocks posted above could be quite some help though.

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Thats a good thing it looks you got a lot of work left.

We have quite a problem here really. On one end we have beleivable, but prone to greifers. On the other hand we have the everything is protected strategy that would destroy the idea of warfare. Neither of which would be desirable. Protected land would kill the warfare and protected chests would eventually clutter a world with indestructible useless blocks. The snitch blocks posted above could be quite some help though.

I say make theft hard, but possible.

Chests that are placed can only be opened by their placer, but destroyed by anyone. However, chests break at 1/2 vanilla obsidian speed (30 seconds), and can't be picked up unless broken by a saw

Fair?

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Thats called an ender chest they just added it into vanilla.

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You shouldn't really have to add much in the way of politics. Those will occur naturally.

What really needs to happen is fixing the biome generation so that each one is unique enough that you have to set up different towns; where trade becomes a necessity. Almost. You should be able to survive anywhere, but to advance you would need to have some people find better resources elsewhere.

Some people find a good source of wood (make it so that in some biomes, such as mountains, trees rarely-never grow), some people to find different ores (and likewise biomes good for agriculture, such as plains, would be difficult to find any decent amount ore in). Of course you could be able to get lucky and find something with nearly everything, but if it's balanced right there should always be something that you can do easier or better by either trading for it or exploring to find your own source.

Also a proper way to transport large amounts of goods, such as ships or wagons.

Now on security: There really is no proper way to do it. Anything you do to make it work would be a kludge to the problem that people log off. You can't always watch your things and even if someone break in to your house, it won't wake you up.

What I suggest would be a way to lock items that can be activated (doors, chests, the like), and a way (necessarily difficult) to unlock them. Then you would need a way to set traps that can apprehend or kill a reckless intruder. And this would probably have to be coupled with some system that "wakes the player up" which would be a complete mess unless you are exceedingly clever or a way to make a limited area of blocks unbreakable while you are logged off (probably in a small area around your bed (ooh! the right size would make bedrooms actually necessary)) so the thief would have to wait until you have a chance to catch him to steal anything from you.

You would also need a way to track down the thief. I'm thinking a series of clue blocks (i would think similar in shape and size to the rocks) dropped at regular intervals (so a thief would have to be quick) that give clues to who it was that intruded. Like pieces of a name or colors of clothes.

I just came up with all this in the past 20 minutes so these idea are nowhere near fleshed out.

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I say make theft hard, but possible.

Chests that are placed can only be opened by their placer, but destroyed by anyone. However, chests break at 1/2 vanilla obsidian speed (30 seconds), and can't be picked up unless broken by a saw

Fair?

I would say not; there's no way a thief is going to get caught in 30 seconds. make it something like 12 hours, then maybe.

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I don't think an economy is going to work without a whole lot of social buy-in at the server level, so it seems not especially useful to spend time on. One thing that makes fiat money work is that there's one thing you can't do with any form of barter or currency except a nation's official currency: pay your taxes. A shop in the United States near the Mexican border can accept pesos in exchange for goods if they like, but the sales tax on those goods must be paid in USD. This encourages everyone to use USD as the driver of commerce while in the US.

Without some sort of thing that you can only do with the constructed currency, which I don't see a means for the game to provide, it's going to come down to some players providing a good or service that can only be paid for in their currency. A lot of buy-in on the server level.

Instead, what I'd like to see is a more general system that lets us create trinkets or whatever with a decorative/creative/vanity purpose, and let players use those trinkets for currency if we like.

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