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Bioxx

Kingdoms Brainstorming

899 posts in this topic

Also, using pigeons that don't actually have a model, and are just used as an abstraction, removes the need to make a model, to animate it, and to program the pathing for an AI. Also, what do you do if the pigeon has to travel over unloaded chunks?

I would probably add pigeons in as a mob that you would have to capture, but I agree, once the pigeon flies off with your message, it would disappear and then arrive at it's destination at the correct time.
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I would probably add pigeons in as a mob that you would have to capture, but I agree, once the pigeon flies off with your message, it would disappear and then arrive at it's destination at the correct time.

I would suggest that, instead of having them be a capturable mob, that during the generation process of a tree there is a very small (1 in 200, at the most) chance that one of the leaf blocks will instead be replaced with a bird's nest block. A bird's nest block would be a container with a 4 slot inventory that would contain between 0 and 4 bird's eggs. These eggs could then be hatched to create the required pigeons. Perhaps by carrying them around in your inventory for a while. Breaking the bird's nest before "opening" it to remove any eggs that might be inside it would destroy any eggs inside it. So there would be an incentive to look carefully at that tree before you start whacking at it with your scythe.

The odds of generating a bird's nest probably needs to be lower, as it would be "relatively" easy to farm them with, say, your standard willow tree farm. Or, they could be more common, but have the probabilities distribution for the number of eggs in a nest be skewed towards 0. Say, 50% chance of 0 eggs, 30% chance of 1 egg, 15% chance of two eggs, 4% chance of 3 eggs, and 1% chance of 4 eggs.

Detaching the message from the pigeon carrying it could cause the pigeon to "fly away" and be lost. Maybe not all the time, but something like a 50/50 odds of it happening, so that you have to keep going out and looking for more eggs, or keep growing more trees to hope more birds build more nests and lay more eggs.

Or nests could only appear during the spring.

[edit] added idea in italics

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I would suggest that, instead of having them be a capturable mob, that during the generation process of a tree there is a very small (1 in 200, at the most) chance that one of the leaf blocks will instead be replaced with a bird's nest block. A bird's nest block would be a container with a 4 slot inventory that would contain between 0 and 4 bird's eggs. These eggs could then be hatched to create the required pigeons. Perhaps by carrying them around in your inventory for a while. Breaking the bird's nest before "opening" it to remove any eggs that might be inside it would destroy any eggs inside it. So there would be an incentive to look carefully at that tree before you start whacking at it with your scythe.

The odds of generating a bird's nest probably needs to be lower, as it would be "relatively" easy to farm them with, say, your standard willow tree farm. Or, they could be more common, but have the probabilities distribution for the number of eggs in a nest be skewed towards 0. Say, 50% chance of 0 eggs, 30% chance of 1 egg, 15% chance of two eggs, 4% chance of 3 eggs, and 1% chance of 4 eggs.

Detaching the message from the pigeon carrying it could cause the pigeon to "fly away" and be lost. Maybe not all the time, but something like a 50/50 odds of it happening, so that you have to keep going out and looking for more eggs, or keep growing more trees to hope more birds build more nests and lay more eggs.

Or nests could only appear during the spring.

[edit] added idea in italics

But of course, all things have a time and place, and it seems TFC isn't the place.
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Another idea would be a Nest Box. This would be a craftable, placeable block. When placed, it would "suck up"/"vacuum up" all chicken eggs that are on the ground in a radius around it (so that they aren't lost due to someone not paying attention and picking them up). It would hold a single stack of eggs.

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But of course, all things have a time and place, and it seems TFC isn't the place.

I take it the Messenger Pigeon idea got shot down?

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where is the point of citys with npc then anyway?

they dont help you with building stuff, they dont help you with resources... when you have to farm all resources yourself (at the beginning its okay, until they can start to produce there own ressources)

then there is no point in citys (at least in single player) mp... jeah, but you can achieve the same thing with protections and done =O

Who said anything about NPC cities? This isn't going to be Millenaire, Bioxx is still questioning whether to add NPCs or not.
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I take it the Messenger Pigeon idea got shot down?

I prefer to call it "re-assessed." or "weighed with a realistic, objective point of view"
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I prefer to call it "re-assessed." or "weighed with a realistic, objective point of view"

I-it's not like I w-was trying to make a p-pun or anything...

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I-it's not like I w-was trying to make a p-pun or anything...

?
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?

shoot down: kill: thwart the passage of; "kill a motion"; "he shot down the student's proposal"

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shoot down: kill: thwart the passage of; "kill a motion"; "he shot down the student's proposal"

ah, I was trying to convey a process that didn't sound so violent or rude. Like how your company "lets you go" instead of "kicking you ass to the curb" lol
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Wow this thread is getting big .. 14 pages and growing .. not a great way to consolidate ideas as no-one (me included) is going to read through 14 pages just to see if what they want to say has been said already..

So (not having read 14 pages)..

There are already (at least) 3 minecraft mods that have attempted to simulate economies, 2 of which allow the player to start and manage a town (ala the home stone system).

Millenaire is probably the most advance economic model allowing the player to trade with towns, the result of which causes the towns to grow and expand. If I remember correctly (a while since I've played this mod) the player can eventually form new towns/villages as well. I'm not sure how advance the npc town->town trading is.

Mine Colony - another mod in the same vein as Millenaire but based on an old PC game (Anno1602). Never really got beyond the basics stage and had a few issues with building placement. Single town controlled by the player who also decided building placement.

Sim-U-Craft - by far the bast player controlled town mod. Again I've not played this in a while. This mod imposes actions on the player forcing them to manage the town (ala sim-city on which its based). Residents arrive and require housing. They then require feeding and jobs. Houses can be designed by the player and then replicated by builders. Building placement is totally player controlled. This mod is SSP only and the author has no desire atm to make it SMP compatible but it is Forge based. I would love to see this mod integrated with Terrafirma craft as its the one that I thnk aspire to the same sort of ideals as TFC does.

But from a long term perspective in terms of economics, Anno1602 serves as a good model and sort of fits with the resources already present in TFC. The problem is then creating the towns and resource drivers in the first place.

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Eh, i'm not in favor of Npc's or at least conventional ones, they just are out of place in this mod.

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ah, I was trying to convey a process that didn't sound so violent or rude. Like how your company "lets you go" instead of "kicking you ass to the curb" lol

he meant, shoot down dual meaning of shoot the pigeon AND rejected idea

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he meant, shoot down dual meaning of shoot the pigeon AND rejected idea

oh. well crap.
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Eh, i'm not in favor of Npc's or at least conventional ones, they just are out of place in this mod.

I don't think they are out of place, just op. Millenaire npcs worked their asses off, that would be really bad to have in this mod. But what if you have 2 people on a server or better yet, singleplayer?

he meant, shoot down dual meaning of shoot the pigeon AND rejected idea

You don't have guns in minecraft, the hacker eagles are coming...
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After a debate with some of my friends on the ideas of a sandbox game we eventually came to an agreement on the nature of anti-grief (I know the topic is a dead horse. However, it is important to find the best possible solution for such a serious issue). Wall-of-text ensues:

One of the biggest issues discussed with my friends is that people can make mistakes. That and the fact that they are "god" incarnated as an admins. Normally I would be okay an admin removing trolls and griefers from an objective based game. You are already playing against carefully calculated game mechanics (hopefully), a griefer interfere's with these mechanics. Example: team killing in an FPS is inexcusable if it loses you the match, that world is over and you cannot recover it. You lost and you can only hope to do better in your next world. However in a sandbox game like minecraft being griefed is a set back, not an end of your world as you know it, the world persists and so does your character, even in death.

Because of this we noted that an Admin is more of a god than an enforcer of "justice". We realise they hold the right to ban at will, but we hope that the anti-grief mechanic will make that use of power a rarity. I took the biggest stance against "ban griefer" as it violates the transparency I want in a sandbox. By violation of transparency I mean an overt use of out-of-game force (I consider it "out-of-game", as not all players have access to this ability; see "immersion breaking"). I went as far to say remove admins ban mechanic entirely, but that assumes a "perfect" solution to the issue of griefing.

I am harshly against human moderation, if you look at most justice systems they even admit that the system is not perfect and innocent people are punished from time to time. A good game should never punish someone that did nothing wrong. Our discussion finally arrived at the point of game-oriented anti-grief. Simply put, the game is a barrier to stealing, killing, blowing up, griefing, etc. other people. Someone suggested spawn protection for cities, but we didn't see perfect protection of possessions being a solution to this. This does not address the issue precisely, more of going after a rabbit with a cannon. This doesn't differentiate between gameplay and griefing. We've used chemotherapy to try to cure a cold. People will still be able to grief you when they join the city. Their punishment? Get kicked out. Another person suggested that stolen possessions are returned. What if they've already used them? Or sold them? Or threw them into lava? Griefing could provide and avenue for an insurance service or hiring people to defend your cities.

Unfortunately this can also be a huge problem. Server Capacity. Some of the best servers I've seen can host 250 people on vanilla. With TFC? I'd conservatively say 100, if not much less as processing power goes up with this mod dramatically, take multiple concurrent chunks loaded and several chunks being updated at a time, and you're probably stressing the hardware to its limits. So lets say 100 people can ever be on a server at one time. Now we either have to choose timezones we're allowing in as to maintain a consistent online population or there will be times that less than 10 people are online at one time. Chances that all of these people will be defending each settlement? Very low unless there are only a few settlements, say five or so. This means any one of these ten people can go steal from one of these settlements. This is because there is no enforceability, like there is in the real world, and the only reason why we don't live in total anarchy. There is a watchdog, and people have to take risks.

We ended up at risk vs reward gameplay. No griefer, or marauder, or thief, should be able to ruin three hours of work with thirty seconds of planning. Theres needs to be a time investment and then an investment of this work and time on ruining someone elses work and time. This risk vs reward provides elation when things go well. When you fail, it may dissuade you from stealing, killing, etc. again. Either way, the aggressor needs to be at the very least evenly matched with a settlement, if not flat outmatched if its just one man versus a settlement (this is an expansion of my earlier post towards the bottom of page seven). To overcome the lone perpetrator when your entire village is logged off will require some sort of standing force, such as guards. These may require a special building, a certain amount of bread, and a weekly to monthly payment. We think of this assertion of paying for protection as normal. Why should a thief not have to pay something (time, materials) to get your hard earned work? He may need tough armor, a good weapon, or even buddies to back him up, or else get swarmed by guards and just die. In fact it shouldn't be unreasonable to say that you need a minimum number of people to steal from or attack a village. Make the guards constantly respawn when they are bested(untill A.I. is improved). One man should not be an unstoppable army. This lets people group up and form mercenary bands if they want to pit their steel against the world. How far can you get with your wits and sword kind of gameplay? But death isn't an appropriate punishment as in a sandbox you get infinite "do-overs". Instead when attacking a town, there could be a chance of getting wounded, and fatal blows inflict sever wounds. These wounds could persist on the character for days, weeks, months, until healed. They would penalize certain stats like max runspeed, max damage, hunger consumption, the possibilites are enormous. They could be treated to heal faster, lessen severity, etc. Some could even make you bleed out if left untreated. This would be yet another risk to the attacker, as the villagers may gain a resistance to wounds when defending their settlement, call it "quick treatment" , "homefield advantage" , "triage" or the like. The name is unimportant, the implication is what is necessary. Make a griefer or a raider think twice.

Now why am I discussing combat in a kingdom related post? Because current combat mechanics and penalty for dying are too binary for this solution (unfortunately); that is whomever is better geared is more likely to win, especially as the gear differential increases.

My final point is on NPC's in general. As the available human player population goes down, the number of NPC's needed goes up. That is, a village (at least if the inhanitants are sane) should always have some way to defend itself. We need a proactive solution to griefing, not organizing a man hunt after the fact when that player could be anywhere in the game world. This retroactive solution doesn't punish someone for wasting your time, it provides validation for their action making you waste more looking for them.

TL;DR: The defense against unsavory conduct should occur before/during the deed, not after. Time investment versus time stolen needs to be equal, I.E. four hours to get a set of bronze armor, Thief took three to five hours to steal it.

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Block Protection seems like a good idea, but to me it feels a bit overpowered. If you can simply protect blocks and make them unbreakable, it really removes the ability to rob someone... which wouldn't be realistic. I know the goal of the mod is not realism, but it is still useful to have some.

Number one, doors should have locks. Only the player with a key can get into a certain door. Also, maybe a lock pick to be able to pick those locks.

Number two, if blocks are protected then they should not be simply unbreakable, they should just take much longer to break. Something like 2 or 3 minutes to break a protected block such as wood, and have a linear formula to multiply the block's original break time. Windows should still be easy to break, but you could maybe take damage when you break it with your fist? Glass shards hurt.

Number three, in real life detecting who broke something is impossible without some neat CSI stuffs. Players who break blocks should leave something behind, maybe a fingerprint or a footprint that can be matched up to a player. It wouldn't be overly impossible to match it up, maybe being able to use a new type of dust to identify the print and right click the player with it to see if it is a match. Punishments should be enforced more than in real life though, as it is easier to commit crimes in Minecraft or TFC than it is to commit them in real life. You should lose all the items you have in your inventory, owe the town money, and move down a rank in society as well as being put in prison for a TFC month or two. Heh, you could also be banished from the town and not be allowed to have a home nearby. This would allow better law enforcement and would encourage players to not commit crimes.

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Death, that was figurative shooting... lol, it's a phrase, "shooting down an idea"

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A summation of what I've seen so far is

Some form of block protection, with the ability to dictate who can build within it, that makes it more difficult for lone individuals to break the blocks within the protected area

A way to lock (and to pick the locks of) doors and chests

Anything else?

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Oh god, that escalated quickly :P

I go away to a festival and that is the weekend that this thread gets started ? T.T

I can't be expected to read through 14 pages of text before making suggestions, so I will give a quick summary of my ideas, and you guys who have seen the thread develop can tell me which have already been covered comprehensively enough:

A town "marking" system, which will not just protect blocks and make a small town indestructible. Towns should be able to go to war and do some damage

A coin based economy, preferably with a minting system which would allow users to differentiate between official currency and fake currency (fake currency should still be craftable).

The ability to build a designated "prison" area where rule breaking players could be sent.

Some kind of siege weapons to go along with war.

A UI for political relations between towns, so that you can easily see the current political climate.

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i think a poll about the different ideas in this thread would be a good idea at this point

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Or a summary, but ya jed most of that has been covered except for the UI (did you mean GUI?) which would be great for quick summary but i don't know how it would be done a little more detail would be great. Everything else has been agreed on minus plot protections. They could be a major problem with warfare as both teams would need to agree to war. Not to mention greifers need to be able to do something, we don't them greifing but instead they will become petty criminals stuck to only theft and vandalism. They will be easier to stop and catch apparently.

Edit: oh and we have pretty much agreed that currency will be based on the town as some people like barter only towns. An idea dunk had was that when somebody mints a coin it has there name on it to prevent counterfeiting.

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Or a summary, but ya jed most of that has been covered except for the UI (did you mean GUI?) which would be great for quick summary but i don't know how it would be done a little more detail would be great. Everything else has been agreed on minus plot protections. They could be a major problem with warfare as both teams would need to agree to war. Not to mention greifers need to be able to do something, we don't them greifing but instead they will become petty criminals stuck to only theft and vandalism. They will be easier to stop and catch apparently.

Edit: oh and we have pretty much agreed that currency will be based on the town as some people like barter only towns. An idea dunk had was that when somebody mints a coin it has there name on it to prevent counterfeiting.

Thanks for bringing me up to speed :)

I did indeed mean GUI :L .. Basically, the idea was that if there are 3 states "War" "Peace" and "Alliance", then this GUI would list the town you belong to's political relations with every other town on the server. That way, secret alliances could still form, but it would be easy to keep track of who you were fighting against etc. It would simply be a list of the towns names then either 1 bar beside which said the state of relations, or 3 bars with the relevant one lit up or something...

Perhaps rather than agreeing to war (which is silly because then people would decline if they thought they might lose) there should be a server wide warning and a 24 hour "grace period" where the aggressor still can't attack ?

I like the idea of allowing crime to continue, I think disabling block destruction when not at war, but allowing looting could be the answer. Maybe non allied users could only open wooden doors, so you can still protect your goods, but at a cost.

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This ^

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