Blacksmithing Changes

[Jed1314 420]

Blacksmithing Difficulty Increase

Edited: Now includes metal shards (Thanks Arthur )

A Note:

There are a huge number of metals. Each of these have different nuances, properties and strengthening techniques associated with them. For example, you wouldn’t quench copper to make it harder, you would beat it when cold with a hammer. I have put forward this suggestion with the full knowledge it is not realistic. However, I do feel it is believable to the layman with less knowledge of heat treatment techniques and the science behind them.

Basic Premise: In response to Dunk’s statement he would like to make smithing harder, I have a few suggestions.

New Features: Quenching The process of rapidly cooling a tool to harden it.

OverworkingIf too many mistakes are made, the ingot will eventually become overworked and will need to be recast.

Tempering The process of reheating a metal to certain temperatures, then allowing it to slowly cool to improve toughness

Annealing A way to “re-set†worked metals material properties by heating them very hot then allowing them to cool slowly

Stricter Smithing Controls Pretty much what it says on the tin, make it harder to land in the right area for a good tool

Placeable Buckets/Barrels Either placeable buckets, or barrels to facilitate quenching

Use of existing features: The Anvil Staying the same

The Forge/Firepit Used to heat metals mid forging obviously

Buckets If placeable buckets are used instead of barrels

These changes are actually also going to be listed in the order you would have to perform them:

Stricter Smithing Controls:

This bit is pretty self explanatory, basically, it revolves around reducing the acceptable margin for error in smithing by reducing the acceptable bounds where a tool can be made.

Overworking:

There will be a limit to how many times an ingot can be worked before it needs to be re-melted and cast again. This is to ensure the increased difficulty is not worked around by spamming until it is about right.

Quenching:

Quenching will be done by placing the now finished tool head in a barrel of liquid. After it has been heated to a certain temperature or above (this will vary on a metal to metal basis). There are several that can be used, some are better than others:

Water- Has a % chance to break the tool outright. Also leaves tool very brittle (less durability when finished).

Salt Water- Similar to normal water, but with higher chance to break tool and more durability damage (I mentioned salt water, but I don’t suggest adding it especially for this purpose)

Oil- Best quenching medium, no chance to break and does not reduce durability. (Oil is made from certain fruits and crops, such as olives)

When a tool is broken during quenching, it will turn into "tool shards". These can be re-smelted to give a reasonable (but not full) return of metal e.g 7/8ths

Tempering:

Once a tool has been tempered, it must be reheated to a specific temperature (this is important as anything below this will not cause a temper to develop and anything above it risks annealing the metal and undoing the quench, to reflect this, a poor temper will affect durability). Once it hits

exactly that temperature, the tool should be removed and allowed to cool at a normal rate. Once this is done, the tool is complete and can be fixed to a stick.

Annealing:

If a mistake is made during the quenching or tempering processes, it is possible to “reset†the tool by heating it to a high temperature, then allowing it to cool slowly. This will not fix broken tools, but will allow the user to fix durability reductions done.

Placeable buckets/barrels:

This is simply a requirement for the quenching process

[antimattergizmo 41]

Very well thought out in taking already remarked future plans, and new features I wouldn't have thought of. Doesn't make sense tool heads are instantly cool when done. I don't think the oil should be that useful, regardless of how hard it is to make. I'm glad to see more than just a statement as a suggestion (including my own)

[Jed1314 420]

Very well thought out in taking already remarked future plans, and new features I wouldn't have thought of. Doesn't make sense tool heads are instantly cool when done. I don't think the oil should be that useful, regardless of how hard it is to make. I'm glad to see more than just a statement as a suggestion (including my own)

Oil actually is the best quenching medium. It isn't that useful really, it doesn't negate bad smithing on the part of the smith, it just prevents the tool being made worse through unsuitable quenching materials. Tools don't cool instantly when done. When they have finished tempering they are done, so the tool head will have cooled slowly (although I just realised you may be referring to the way it is right now )

Thanks If you look at my other suggestions they're all done to the same format :L :L

[Scooterdanny 285]

Jed, you mentioned forging while cold, historically there were attempts at "cold steel" or metals that were forged at very low/room temperatures, they believed that this would be somehow better, i tried doing this with a copper bar however, it hurts like hell first of all, and is very tiring. Buuut, it is possible, so +1

also, overworking is already in the game, but only if the green bar goes all the way to the right.

[Jed1314 420]

Jed, you mentioned forging while cold, historically there were attempts at "cold steel" or metals that were forged at very low/room temperatures, they believed that this would be somehow better, i tried doing this with a copper bar however, it hurts like hell first of all, and is very tiring. Buuut, it is possible, so +1

also, overworking is already in the game, but only if the green bar goes all the way to the right.

Yeah, I wanted to change the overworking system because you have to be quite overzealous with the hammering to overwork in game ..

If you check carefully, I didn't actually refer to cold forging, but the cooler temperatures required for work hardening. (easy mistake to make mind you) Copper tends to be shaped using a combination of hot forging and cold work hardening. It is also possible to beat out copper cold, but it is harder and the metal must be annealed occasionally to remove the work hardening which occurs. In some occasions, cold working metals is better, but this usually relates to cost nowadays.

Interesting side note: It is possible to work harden all metals, as work hardening relies on grain distortion as opposed to heat treatment, which relies on austenite, martensite, pearlite etc. content of steel and iron. I chose heat treatment though as I felt it would be more interesting than "wait till the metal cools, then hit it some more with a hammer"

[Scooterdanny 285]

I approve of the knowledge that went into this post. And pardon me for making that mistake. Twas an interesting read, as well as a nice suggestion, minecraft was freaking easy in vanilla, nice and challenging in TFC, but i want it to be even harder and anyone who has concerns, go to a city that has them, and take a different role, like charcoal producer, or woodcutter. who knows, you might even be good at sculpting!

[Jed1314 420]

I approve of the knowledge that went into this post. And pardon me for making that mistake. Twas an interesting read, as well as a nice suggestion, minecraft was freaking easy in vanilla, nice and challenging in TFC, but i want it to be even harder and anyone who has concerns, go to a city that has them, and take a different role, like charcoal producer, or woodcutter. who knows, you might even be good at sculpting!

I really, really, really approve of this sentiment. I think that TFC is heading the right direction by making things so difficult that being able to do them is actually a skill which you learn

It increases the value of these skilled people greatly, and makes serious inroads to making a functioning economy and town system viable, instead of forced.

I would probably say they got the difficulty level just right with the pro-pick. There is genuine skill in using the pro-pick, it takes seconds to learn but much time to master. Once learned, however, pro-pick use is an invaluable skill which I would certainly pay somebody to utilize if I were on a server.

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

Yeah, I wanted to change the overworking system because you have to be quite overzealous with the hammering to overwork in game ..

If you check carefully, I didn't actually refer to cold forging, but the cooler temperatures required for work hardening. (easy mistake to make mind you) Copper tends to be shaped using a combination of hot forging and cold work hardening. It is also possible to beat out copper cold, but it is harder and the metal must be annealed occasionally to remove the work hardening which occurs. In some occasions, cold working metals is better, but this usually relates to cost nowadays.

Interesting side note: It is possible to work harden all metals, as work hardening relies on grain distortion as opposed to heat treatment, which relies on austenite, martensite, pearlite etc. content of steel and iron. I chose heat treatment though as I felt it would be more interesting than "wait till the metal cools, then hit it some more with a hammer"

I suggested all this annealing stuff to bioxx a bit back. after talking about it, the coding is a lot harder and more time consuming than you might think. We don't feel that it's really worth the effort with everything going on (maybe eventually)

[Scooterdanny 285]

I can say i know how to use a propick, but unless i work in a team ( we found enough to fill 4 chests with ore O.o) it takes me a while lol.

[Jed1314 420]

I suggested all this annealing stuff to bioxx a bit back. after talking about it, the coding is a lot harder and more time consuming than you might think. We don't feel that it's really worth the effort with everything going on (maybe eventually)

I understand I know I had actually told you about this before, but I felt that the explanation I gave was poor at best.

I would say /thread this, but there might be a great suggestion made on the thread which would help increase difficulty in blacksmithing without the coding being too hard. I don't doubt you have a couple of ideas of your own though

[GCountach 39]

A lot of this sounds pretty interesting, but there is one suggestion I have to disagree with and it's under the quenching process:

Water- Has a % chance to break the tool outright. Also leaves tool very brittle (less durability when finished).

Now, you said there's a way to obtain oil through foods like olives, which I agree should grant some bonus, but the possibility of outright losing an ingot seems drastic. For anyone starting out, the ability to obtain olives requires a decent amount of time (they aren't able to be harvested until October) and blind luck finding the fruit tree to start with. That means, even if you spawn next to a grove of them that you can't use the oil til October. A durability hit for using water would be reasonable but outright destruction? You could be in the stone age for an in-game year before you can actually make ingots. While this is almost certainly realistic, it doesn't seem fun from a gameplay perspective.

[Jed1314 420]

A lot of this sounds pretty interesting, but there is one suggestion I have to disagree with and it's under the quenching process:

Now, you said there's a way to obtain oil through foods like olives, which I agree should grant some bonus, but the possibility of outright losing an ingot seems drastic. For anyone starting out, the ability to obtain olives requires a decent amount of time (they aren't able to be harvested until October) and blind luck finding the fruit tree to start with. That means, even if you spawn next to a grove of them that you can't use the oil til October. A durability hit for using water would be reasonable but outright destruction? You could be in the stone age for an in-game year before you can actually make ingots. While this is almost certainly realistic, it doesn't seem fun from a gameplay perspective.

I left it as a % chance for that very reason. This would only affect the forging of tools, not ingots. I am not suggesting a huge % chance, but one large enough to make it worth switching to oil. Perhaps we could meet in the middle and say the broken tool could be re-melted (presuming they broke in the quenching process) ?

[Scooterdanny 285]

I like the remelting idea, only wasting time and heat at that point (and maybe a little bit of metal)

[Arthur_Dent 36]

I like the remelting idea, only wasting time and heat at that point (and maybe a little bit of metal)

I don't like that blacksmithing will get harder, but this seems a fun way to increase the difficulty level. And I very much approve of the remelting sentiment. instead of disappearing while it is quenched, it would give "BROKEN xXmetal_nameXx TOOL HEAD", like "BROKEN TIN TOOL HEAD" or something like that.

But how would it be reforged? Would you toss it into a Bloomery and melt it into an Unshapen Bar? That certianly seems the easiest way.

[RogueHydra 32]

^

I like that idea

[antimattergizmo 41]

And of course broken tools have a percentage of metal lost in the process, so as not to make it now be something you shouldn't do

[Arthur_Dent 36]

^

I like that idea

Which one, the TOOL HEAD, or the Bloomery?

And of course broken tools have a percentage of metal lost in the process, so as not to make it now be something you shouldn't do

I was thinging about putting that Idea in, but didn't. Thanks for bringing it up .

It certianly would be believable, having an 8th or so of the metal unuseable (Contaminated by the quenching procces? Lost in Forging?), so you'd need to pop a few more ores into the Bloomery to get a full bar out.

Edited 16 Aug 2012 by Arthur_Dent

[GCountach 39]

I left it as a % chance for that very reason. This would only affect the forging of tools, not ingots. I am not suggesting a huge % chance, but one large enough to make it worth switching to oil. Perhaps we could meet in the middle and say the broken tool could be re-melted (presuming they broke in the quenching process) ?

Though I know I said ingots, I did mean tools/weapons/armor/etc. My mistake. That said, I could get behind just having broken tool. Doesn't even have to be "broken <tool>", could just be "tool shards" or whatever.

[Arthur_Dent 36]

Though I know I said ingots, I did mean tools/weapons/armor/etc. My mistake. That said, I could get behind just having broken tool. Doesn't even have to be "broken <tool>", could just be "tool shards" or whatever.

I just though of something, thanks for the spark.

Why not call the broken tools, armor, what have you, something like "xXmetal_nameXx SHARDS", like " BISMUTH SHARDS". It's a nice blanket term for anything that breaks on the anvil, don't you think?

[Jed1314 420]

I just though of something, thanks for the spark.

Why not call the broken tools, armor, what have you, something like "xXmetal_nameXx SHARDS", like " BISMUTH SHARDS". It's a nice blanket term for anything that breaks on the anvil, don't you think?

It is indeed. I will add to the OP when I get a minute

[Arthur_Dent 36]

It is indeed. I will add to the OP when I get a minute

YAY!!! I contributed!!!

*Bleep* wha... What's that?

*looks at screen, message pops up*

*reads*

"Achievment Unlocked - You Contributed! Now Lurk Moar!"

Well, if that ain't the darnedest thing...

(sorry if I sound overexcited, it's 230am for me and I'm getting a little slap happy )

All joking aside, glad I could help! Great ideas you have, man.

Side note, in the OP, I can't see the quenching mediums

[Jed1314 420]

YAY!!! I contributed!!!

*Bleep* wha... What's that?

*looks at screen, message pops up*

*reads*

"Achievment Unlocked - You Contributed! Now Lurk Moar!"

Well, if that ain't the darnedest thing...

(sorry if I sound overexcited, it's 230am for me and I'm getting a little slap happy )

All joking aside, glad I could help! Great ideas you have, man

Thanks man You'll even get mentioned in the OP

[Arthur_Dent 36]

Thanks man You'll even get mentioned in the OP

You're too kind, . But I don't know if you read it or not, cause it was an edit, but I can't read the quenching mediums in the OP

[Jed1314 420]

You're too kind, . But I don't know if you read it or not, cause it was an edit, but I can't read the quenching mediums in the OP

I didn't see it, thanks

Hmm, why can't you see them ? What is preventing you ? I can't see any issue on the post myself :S

[Arthur_Dent 36]

I didn't see it, thanks

Hmm, why can't you see them ? What is preventing you ? I can't see any issue on the post myself :S

There are 3 lines that look like the bottom of the "spoiler" box under the actual spoiler. I click "show" and they are still there.

Looking at the actual post, I think it has something to do with the "enter" spaces, the new lines, oyu put in it...