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Ethreality

Woodcutting, and charcoal.

155 posts in this topic

I would like to raise a few suggestions regarding the lumber in TFC.

First off, I know different types of trees grow at different rates, but I've noticed some grow abnormally quickly, as in within half a week to a week of game time. I'm not sure if this is a bug, but obviously, trees do not grow this quickly. If you're making crops take a full season to grow, why don't trees take more time to grow as well?

Secondly, trees are much too easy to cut down. As soon as you manage to get your first axe, you can knock over a tree in literally two seconds. I would like to suggest some form of tree-cutting-down-interface, similar to the forge in some ways. If you mess up, maybe the tree could fall on you and hurt you :P If you do it well, your axe might sustain less durability loss than if you botch the job.

Thirdly, I would like to make a formal complaint about the wood burnt to charcoal ratio. I know the numbers, (Which I won't post.) and they are obscene. You cut down a mighty oak, and get maybe three charcoal for the entire thing. The numbers should definitely be raised in favour of the charcoal produced, because, to be honest, I'm tired of cutting down a forest to smelt a handful of bars. The numbers should be raised even more so if my ideas of complicating lumber work are implemented.

Edit 1: Also, data values should be changed so that "small ore" requires significantly less charcoal to smelt than "ore".

Feel free to add to, complain, revise, and pick apart these suggestions.

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IMO the biggest problem with this would be: we use far too much wood.

housebuilding,supports,(we need craploads for) charcoal,...

making woodcutting more complicated would just make a lot of things more annoying, certainly with the longer grow times. i mean... imagine this: you arrive at a small settlement on a server you just joined, and they have to tell you that you can't live there cause they have not enough wood for you to even make a bed, "so come back in a month or 2 in game time, we'll have some wood by then"

i mean c'mon... every settlement would need to be right next to a damn big forest to be able to accommodate for everything. and even then wood might still run out, if a lot of peeps need charcoal to smelt the ores they gathered... well, the wood will soon run out, i don't really like a scenario in which i only have 1-3 charcoal left and have no trees anywhere to make more.

so as far as i'm concerned the elongating of the growing time isn't that good of an idea.

as for trees being too easy to cut down, true, they might need to make them harder to cut down, but i don't think implementing some interface would be a good idea, it would just slow down woodcutting so damn much, i mean: you have to punch down the leaves in order to get sticks or at least get a sapling to replant, which already feels like a drag if you have to do it every time, but then... you have to do some other random stuff, just to get the tree down?

well tbh, when you cut a tree you just stand in front of it and start punching with an axe, let's just presume our char is smart enough to hit the side of the tree so it 'falls' sideways and doesn't hurt him. problem solved, our char has the innate ability to not be stupid and to avoid being crushed to death when woodcutting.

so i agree that they might need to make woodcutting harder, so making a metal axe would be a lot more useful instead of just using a stone one (which is what i do, since stone ones are more than fast enough atm)

but i really don't think implementing a lumberjack-interface would be a good idea, we just need too much wood for it to be anything but a complete and utter annoyance.

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i mean c'mon... every settlement would need to be right next to a damn big forest

That was true IRL and it makes sense for TFC. Im with ethreal sorry dude.
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IMO the biggest problem with this would be: we use far too much wood.

housebuilding,supports,(we need craploads for) charcoal,...

making woodcutting more complicated would just make a lot of things more annoying, certainly with the longer grow times. i mean... imagine this: you arrive at a small settlement on a server you just joined, and they have to tell you that you can't live there cause they have not enough wood for you to even make a bed, "so come back in a month or 2 in game time, we'll have some wood by then"

i mean c'mon... every settlement would need to be right next to a damn big forest to be able to accommodate for everything. and even then wood might still run out, if a lot of peeps need charcoal to smelt the ores they gathered... well, the wood will soon run out, i don't really like a scenario in which i only have 1-3 charcoal left and have no trees anywhere to make more.

so as far as i'm concerned the elongating of the growing time isn't that good of an idea.

not agreed.. i side with Peffern and ethreal...because it should be harder to get as much wood as we use in building...that would ALSO help the regrowth rate of the woods...and like IRL people would have to use recourses patiently in order not to overuse them.

Forests are really big..even in minecraft and if you always replant the trees you chop down and don't chop down more then you need there is always enough!!

[...]

as for trees being too easy to cut down, true, they might need to make them harder to cut down, but i don't think implementing some interface would be a good idea, it would just slow down woodcutting so damn much, i mean: you have to punch down the leaves in order to get sticks or at least get a sapling to replant, which already feels like a drag if you have to do it every time, but then... you have to do some other random stuff, just to get the tree down?

well tbh, when you cut a tree you just stand in front of it and start punching with an axe, let's just presume our char is smart enough to hit the side of the tree so it 'falls' sideways and doesn't hurt him. problem solved, our char has the innate ability to not be stupid and to avoid being crushed to death when woodcutting.

so i agree that they might need to make woodcutting harder, so making a metal axe would be a lot more useful instead of just using a stone one (which is what i do, since stone ones are more than fast enough atm)

agreed

something i just thought of while reading a few wood threads (i don't even know if it was posted somewhere else because i didn't look throught everything)

 <br><br>what if kapok and sequoia trees would need to have at least 2 or 3 of the four blocks in one level broken to fall down entirely? that would make them harder to take down because it's kinda weird to hit only one spot of a 2 meter wide tree to take it out not?!

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Right. To tie into numerous other threads at once (conveniently not linking you ti any of them) if trees started with a small trunk and got wider, then there would be more incentive to let them grow, and also, of different trees had different trunk widths, branch prevalence, leaf prevalence and charcoal output, then it would provide an incentive for people to farm more diversely.

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not agreed.. i side with Peffern and ethreal...because it should be harder to get as much wood as we use in building...that would ALSO help the regrowth rate of the woods...and like IRL people would have to use recourses patiently in order not to overuse them.

Forests are really big..even in minecraft and if you always replant the trees you chop down and don't chop down more then you need there is always enough!!

something i just thought of while reading a few wood threads (i don't even know if it was posted somewhere else because i didn't look throught everything)

 <br><br>what if kapok and sequoia trees would need to have at least 2 or 3 of the four blocks in one level broken to fall down entirely? that would make them harder to take down because it's kinda weird to hit only one spot of a 2 meter wide tree to take it out not?!

true, but it would fuck up most opportunities to live anywhere else. you'd NEED a damn big forest to be able to survive, so no mid-mountain village, no tundra village,... i do get your point, but from an SMP vision, it sucks major ass for anyone /any settlement that isn't built near a big forest.

yh true, a mountain village wouldn't use as much wood, but current TFC mechanics make wood one of the number one resources, in mountain villages for example: especially for charcoal and support beams. yh you have normal mineable coal, but it's not as easy to get as charcoal.

and don't forget, you lose about 75% of your wood while making charcoal--> 4stacks of charcoal: say goodbye to 1/4-1/2 of the forest.

so unless there are other things to counterbalance the longer grow time, this idea could very well mean the end of any and all villages that aren't near a forest (jungles don't count cause jungle trees don't give saplings--> can't regrow)

as for the 'spoilered' idea (spoiled wouldn't really fit the situation :3 ): i agree with the need to break at least 2 blocks in 2x2 trees.

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you can make a village up in the mountains of course!!! just don't use so much wood!!! and the little you need when constructing from stone only (like people would in the mountains..(i am thinking of those " in the side of the mountain" villages for example) you would have to get from the closest nearby forest!

and it IS of course harder to life somewhere "exotic"...the desert or a mountain range are NOT the first place you'd chose to make a village!!

The charcoal thing is another matter.. of course (like in the OP) it could be made with higher ratios, but making charcoal is not supposed to be easy!!

and IRL colliers would live/work in the middle of big forests, because they needed so much wood!!!

wood -> charcoal ratio:

Wikipedia says that about 60% in volume and 25% in weight (which we don't care for) was extracted from the wood. The early methods would only give 50% though, while the more optimized and large-scale methods would give up to 90%!!

Now I think that considering how "easy" it is to make charcoal in TFC the low efficiency is okay!! because in reality it must have been quite hard to get the right temperatures and such...it's not by accident that there is such a job as a collier, as not anyone would be able to get the same quality AND quantity of charcoal!

That's why I am suggesting:

Either, the charcoal production ratio stays as it is, OR it should be possible to raise it's efficiency at the expense of making it harder/more time-consuming! a collier couldn't just walk away, he had to check the temperature/fire all of the time to see if the wood is still burning or getting too hot!

if the fire is too hot the wood would just burn down and not become charcoal.

Also: not all jungle trees are kapok right?!

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I support this idea, and as everyone else said; you are supposed to build next to a forest, it makes sense. It's the same in real life, no one builds cities in deserts. And yeah, for mountain villages just use stone, use what you can.

This would also keep people from piling up wood/getting way more than they need, and it would make them get the saplings to replant straight away.

About the woodcutting interface I'm not sure.. Make it harder in some way but I don't think a GUI is the way to go for something as simple as woodcutting.

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I would like to raise a few suggestions regarding the lumber in TFC.

First off, I know different types of trees grow at different rates, but I've noticed some grow abnormally quickly, as in within half a week to a week of game time. I'm not sure if this is a bug, but obviously, trees do not grow this quickly. If you're making crops take a full season to grow, why don't trees take more time to grow as well?

Secondly, trees are much too easy to cut down. As soon as you manage to get your first axe, you can knock over a tree in literally two seconds. I would like to suggest some form of tree-cutting-down-interface, similar to the forge in some ways. If you mess up, maybe the tree could fall on you and hurt you :P If you do it well, your axe might sustain less durability loss than if you botch the job.

Thirdly, I would like to make a formal complaint about the wood burnt to charcoal ratio. I know the numbers, (Which I won't post.) and they are obscene. You cut down a mighty oak, and get maybe three charcoal for the entire thing. The numbers should definitely be raised in favour of the charcoal produced, because, to be honest, I'm tired of cutting down a forest to smelt a handful of bars. The numbers should be raised even more so if my ideas of complicating lumber work are implemented.

Edit 1: Also, data values should be changed so that "small ore" requires significantly less charcoal to smelt than "ore".

Feel free to add to, complain, revise, and pick apart these suggestions.

the wood-cutting part is already being discussed

lurk moar

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The reason that trees are easy to grow and cut down is just a balance thing these trees are tiny compared to their real-life counterparts and there isn't much we can do about that yet. Until the trees get bigger we can't have longer growth rates otherwise we will run out of wood. And I disagree strongly, there are definitely villages, towns and cities that are nowhere near forests and function fine on their own.

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The reason that trees are easy to grow and cut down is just a balance thing these trees are tiny compared to their real-life counterparts and there isn't much we can do about that yet. Until the trees get bigger we can't have longer growth rates otherwise we will run out of wood. And I disagree strongly, there are definitely villages, towns and cities that are nowhere near forests and function fine on their own.

huh...why can't they grow even if they're only small? i think the amount of wood you currently get from a tree is totally fine...it shouldn't be more..

YES there are cities like that!! it totally agree/know...

but they will not use humongous amounts of wood for construction...because...they don't have it!

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huh...why can't they grow even if they're only small? i think the amount of wood you currently get from a tree is totally fine...it shouldn't be more..

YES there are cities like that!! it totally agree/know...

but they will not use humongous amounts of wood for construction...because...they don't have it!

Its a balance issue yes the size of trees are perfect right now because they grow back quick enough to give you the right amount of wood, however to get that same balanced amount of wood both things (size and growth rate) need to change equally and right now we can't change the size and therefore shouldn't change the growth rate.
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Not sure how people do it when making coal, but I fill all of the logpiles so that they are full(16 logs per block), and I get anything between three stacks of charcoal from one if these charcoal pits(I think the best I've gotten myself is 2stacks+36, though I've done quite a lot of them so I'm not sure anymore. =P).

Also, while I have no issue with making trees take, at least a little, longer to grow, there are a few issues. I'm not going to say it should be realistic(from what I can tell, that word is almost forbidden on these forums), but more believable would be good.(My brother plays on a private SMP server with me, and he insists on planting at least one sapling per willow he cuts down, two or three if he bothers to get more than one sapling from the trees. We built our house in the middle of a plains biome, now it looks like a forest. >_>)

I had a tree farm where when I had placed all twenty something saplings I had at the time, I turned around and had two trees already grown behind me, with another one popping up while I was gathering sticks(they were hickory trees by the way). So make it take at least a few days or a week mc-time to get it to grow. Any longer than a week would most likely start causing troubles in SSP.

Now, for SMP, a year mc-time is a little over 5 days irl-time, no? And regardless of your presence, they will grow anyways, so it's gonna be imbalanced there either way, unless it's slower growth in SMP.

Imagine placing out a stack of saplings(not that hard to obtain), then you log out for the night and get back in the morning. 20min is a day, three days per hour, most people sleep at least 6-8 hours, which in turn gives you more than three weeks of growth while you sleep, assuming you log out just before sleeping and get back in as soon as you get up, most people don't do it that way, they have school work etc. adding even more time.

I'm all for this, though as with most things in this mod, it comes down to balance. It needs to be a significant difference from now to be noticeable, but not so big a difference as to make traveling several hundred blocks to chop trees a viable option to satisfy your needs.

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Its a balance issue yes the size of trees are perfect right now because they grow back quick enough to give you the right amount of wood, however to get that same balanced amount of wood both things (size and growth rate) need to change equally and right now we can't change the size and therefore shouldn't change the growth rate.

I'm sorry but i think you misunderstood..i meant that the amount of wood you get per tree is totally fine even IF the growth rate was longer...

didn't make that clear i guess...

so i don't think that trees give to little wood right now (each chopping down) which i think is what you are trying to say right...

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I think it would remain balanced if it did take a week to grow but too much further than that and we would be throwing off the balance. Read this slowly just to make sure you get it, I think the trees are fine where they are, both size and growth rate however it would be great if we could make them more believable(bigger and slower growing) but we can't change size because of the height limit and if we just change the growth rate we will be changing the balance. I understood you perfectly, don't worry about that.

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Alright, so from what I've gathered from this thread, lots of people are for the ideas posted, just in a less extreme manner.

For one, instead of a log cutting interface, perhaps it should simply take longer to cut down a tree. (Especially with stone tools) As well, though I didn't bring it up (because there was another thread about it) 2x2 trees should require more than one block missing out of the bottom for it to fall down.

As another idea that might assist with the whole deforestation deal, perhaps sticks and saplings should be produced when you cut down a tree..? With taller trees, it can be near impossible to get high enough to harvest saplings and sticks. It's kind of weird that the leaves just disappear too.

As well, now that bsb mentioned it, some of the trees are rather small. Perhaps trees should be larger in TFC. This would counter wood shortage, as well as justify increasing growth time, and cutting time.

I also agree with Sushiy's revision of the charcoal issue. Perhaps the ratios are fine the way they are now, so long as there are ways to make it more efficient.

So, to summarize, here is the new list of ideas:

1. Trees should be larger, to yield more wood. However, they should take longer to grow, and be harder to cut down (especially with stone tools) to counter balance the increased yield.

2. Due to the increased height of trees, saplings and sticks will be harder to retrieve. Therefore, when a tree is cut down, it should yield sticks and saplings. To counteract the fact that this will eliminate the presence of sticks you need to make your first tools, perhaps sticks should also naturally spawn under trees as rocks spawn on the ground.

3. The charcoal ratios should either be raised, or remain the way they are so long as ways to make it more efficient are implemented.

4. More of a side note, as it's from a different thread, 2x2 trees should require more than one block to be removed before falling down.

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Alright, so from what I've gathered from this thread, lots of people are for the ideas posted, just in a less extreme manner.

For one, instead of a log cutting interface, perhaps it should simply take longer to cut down a tree. (Especially with stone tools) As well, though I didn't bring it up (because there was another thread about it) 2x2 trees should require more than one block missing out of the bottom for it to fall down.

As another idea that might assist with the whole deforestation deal, perhaps sticks and saplings should be produced when you cut down a tree..? With taller trees, it can be near impossible to get high enough to harvest saplings and sticks. It's kind of weird that the leaves just disappear too.

As well, now that bsb mentioned it, some of the trees are rather small. Perhaps trees should be larger in TFC. This would counter wood shortage, as well as justify increasing growth time, and cutting time.

I also agree with Sushiy's revision of the charcoal issue. Perhaps the ratios are fine the way they are now, so long as there are ways to make it more efficient.

So, to summarize, here is the new list of ideas:

1. Trees should be larger, to yield more wood. However, they should take longer to grow, and be harder to cut down (especially with stone tools) to counter balance the increased yield.

2. Due to the increased height of trees, saplings and sticks will be harder to retrieve. Therefore, when a tree is cut down, it should yield sticks and saplings. To counteract the fact that this will eliminate the presence of sticks you need to make your first tools, perhaps sticks should also naturally spawn under trees as rocks spawn on the ground.

3. The charcoal ratios should either be raised, or remain the way they are so long as ways to make it more efficient are implemented.

4. More of a side note, as it's from a different thread, 2x2 trees should require more than one block to be removed before falling down.

alright this sounds good, now to get one of the devs to see this...
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To counteract the fact that this will eliminate the presence of sticks you need to make your first tools, perhaps sticks should also naturally spawn under trees as rocks spawn on the ground.

Or maybe some bushes could be added, so you can obtain sticks even if the trees are taller, as well as have a initial source of food if there are no animals near...

EDIT: or maybe both, since i don't think there are bushes EVERYWHERE, are there?

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Or maybe some bushes could be added, so you can obtain sticks even if the trees are taller, as well as have a initial source of food if there are no animals near...

EDIT: or maybe both, since i don't think there are bushes EVERYWHERE, are there?

ohmygersh i totally want at least some forms of bushes

eeeeee then we can have berries and berries and did i mention berries?

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yeah, that's exactly what i was trying to say when i wrote "initial source of food" :P i just forgot that word.

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yeah, that's exactly what i was trying to say when i wrote "initial source of food" :P i just forgot that word.

ohmygosh idea

with the food preserving mechaniccs that people have been talking about, WE COULD MAKE JAM!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!1!1!!ONE

-showers the forums with bottles of strawberry jam-

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I definitely agree with saplings and sticks falling, just make it at reduced rates, like 1/4 that of punching each leaf block, and perhaps a system for saplings to auto-plant if on correct terrain.

Charcoal however, the rates are the same, we just need to be able to get the charcoal more than 5 minutes after (Really, just make the charcoal not an entity, it's silly). Because well, charcoal is not super decompostable, so it should remain in piles.

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I definitely agree with saplings and sticks falling, just make it at reduced rates, like 1/4 that of punching each leaf block, and perhaps a system for saplings to auto-plant if on correct terrain.

Charcoal however, the rates are the same, we just need to be able to get the charcoal more than 5 minutes after (Really, just make the charcoal not an entity, it's silly). Because well, charcoal is not super decompostable, so it should remain in piles.

mayhaps we could have charcoal pile blocks? the log piles would become charcoal piles
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As it stands wood is handled much the way it is in vanilla. Make a decent orchard and periodically spend 15 minutes harvesting the wood, replanting saplings, harvesting all the leaves for more saplings, etc. This is actually a legitimate place where vanilla doesn't vibe with how this mod is made without going into 'realism' stupidity. We simply spend too much time harvesting leaves for saplings for the quantity of trees needed to support anything.

So a higher yield from trees is needed. The effort to get that wood can be increased to appease you guys, but getting the same amount of wood from one tree as five current trees would be fantastic. You could even make trees take a silly long time to grow, like a season, and be fine so long as we can somewhat easily expand forests and have larger trees/larger yield.

I'll support trees taking longer to grow only if it justifies more yield per tree to reduce the tedium of planting a ton of smaller trees and harvesting sapings from them.

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Im supporting the main idea of: Bigger, more realistic trees, but longer growth time. That would be fantastic, maybe i'd stop just using willow for charcoal, cause its the only tree type i deem to give enough wood for the work to plant it and get a new sapling.

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