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Jed1314

Organic Combat Programming

54 posts in this topic

Ok, so first I want to apologise to Dunk because I know he already has a system in mind and I am just putting him in a corner because if I suggest anything he will implement, he can't say anything about it without releasing many spoilers. Also, I know this has been discussed into the ground already.

So sorry Dunk :P

Anyway:

I was looking back on a lot of combat suggestions and a lot of what Dunk and Bioxx have said about "organic" programming. That is to say, rather than fixing certain things (e.g. Desert Biome), we allow values to determine these things (low precipitation, high average temperature, close to equator= desert). With that in mind, I have re-approached some features of combat in a "broad strokes" manner.

So, what am I blabbing on about ?

Key Values of Combat: Breaking down real life combat into a set of values which could be used to express this in a programmable way.

First, the strike: Before we even talk about what the combatants are holding, lets look at how they can swing any object. Ranged weapons excluded, all weapons require some form of "strike" to actually do any damage. Which is to say, without actually swinging that axe, not much will happen. What are the main categories of possible strike ? Surprisingly, there are really two (in the very broad sense):

Thrusting: Pushing (or pulling I guess) the weapon.

Swinging: Swinging the weapon, both pretty self explanatory.

Break it down more if you like (for example, you do not use the same swinging technique with an axe and a sword) but these two categories cover every type of strike that would ever be used in combat. Period. So there, two variables already. Is it swung or thrusted ? Clue: The answer is actually both, but for the sake of any programmers sanity we'll say that weapons (with the exception of some "special" weapons perhaps) are used in only one capacity. Why is this even relevant ? It helps define weapons (and would have much more important effects in a more realistic system with better blocking :P)

Second, "damage types": Most weapons are designed with one (or maybe two) primary "damage types" in mind. For example, the mace is a weapon designed to crush. That is it's primary "damage type". When thrust, the longsword is designed to pierce and when swung, it is designed to cleave. The scimitar (a curved middle eastern sword) isn't designed to be thrust at all and is primarily designed to slash (or cut basically, compare it to a kitchen knife. You cut with a kitchen knife by pushing it across the food, cutting it. This is contrasted with cleaving, which is when you use force, combined with a reasonably sharp edge to "push" through the object in question.)

Slashing: Think kitchen knife again. Uses the horizontal movement of a sharp edge along the surface of an object to "cut" through it. Also could be called cutting.

Cleaving: Think meat cleaver. Uses force concentrated along a reasonably sharp edge to force through tissue, metal and other such things.

Crushing: This one is obvious. Uses force across a wider area to cause impact related trauma. Crushing weapons are very heavy for their size and rely on this weight to do their damage.

Piercing: Force concentrated on a very small point. This is usually with the intention of penetrating at one local point. (E.g. A knife in the back will penetrate at one point, a knife slashed across the back will do less deep damage, but across a much wider area.

Third, armour: This one is a bit tricky. It is easiest to define armour in terms of it's resistance to the above damage types. Here is an example with arbitrary values out of 10:

Plate: S-10 Cl- 7 Cr- 5 P- 4

Chainmail: S-8 Cl- 5 Cr- 0 P- 1

Leather: S-5 Cl- 3 Cr- 0 P- 0

How do we define ranged weapons ?

That is slightly harder again. At their core, all hand held ranged weapons (with a few rare exceptions, namely the throwing axe and slingshot) are piercing weapons. However, we can easily construct a model for ammunition types, which will fit into the system described above. By using cleave as an equivalent for broadhead style arrow damage, we can basically describe ammunition as either primarily piercing or primarily cleaving orientated.

Why all of this bother ?

Simple, this system would make adding new weapons/armour much easier. In a "rock, paper, scissors" model, once you add a new type of weapon or armour, you must rebalance the entire system. By making a more natural system like this, you remove that limitation.

"Effects"

I know that a lot of you want bleeding effects and such. This is how I see them fitting into the suggestion:

Any effect can be caused by any damage type. It requires different amounts of damage to cause the effect depending on the damage type (low indicates low damage to cause effect).

Bleeding: Slow loss of hearts, caused by S- low Cl- med P- med Cr- High

Crippled: Limb damage, severe weakness and slowing, caused by Cr- low Cl- med P- high S- high

Faint: Caused by repetitive bleeding (more than 3x), results in slowing, weakness and dim screen edges (less severe than crippled)

If anyone finds any holes which I haven't covered, tell me !

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Great post jed, however, what about explosions? Would those be considered Crushing damage?

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Great post jed, however, what about explosions? Would those be considered Crushing damage?

I didn't mention them because they aren't really a part of core TFC combat. However .....

It would depend on the type of explosion. If it was a low pressure explosive then it would be primarily environmental damage (from the heat, I didn't mention environmental damage because it isn't really used as a direct combat tool until the invention of the flamethrower :P). If it was a high pressure explosive, it would be a combination of crushing (pressure) and piercing (shrapnel).

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Great post jed, however, what about explosions? Would those be considered Crushing damage?

yeah like jed said -heh rhyme-

'splosions would do crush and peirce damage from the shrapnel as well as fire damage if it's a fiery explosion

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What about mobs? Would certain mobs be more vulnerable to specific damage types than others? (such as, skeletons immune to piercing, vulnerable to crushing). What mobs would deal which kinds of damage?

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What about mobs? Would certain mobs be more vulnerable to specific damage types than others? (such as, skeletons immune to piercing, vulnerable to crushing). What mobs would deal which kinds of damage?

Yeah, dunk made a really long post about this. all of those yes.

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What about mobs? Would certain mobs be more vulnerable to specific damage types than others? (such as, skeletons immune to piercing, vulnerable to crushing). What mobs would deal which kinds of damage?

You could (I presume) give mobs weaknesses and resistances to certain damage types :)

The damage type dealt would depend on the weapon the mob was using :) Teeth are piercing, claws are slashing, fists are blunt .. I would go on but I am sure you get the point :)

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What about mobs? Would certain mobs be more vulnerable to specific damage types than others? (such as, skeletons immune to piercing, vulnerable to crushing). What mobs would deal which kinds of damage?

ok here we go

skelletons: weak to crush, immune to peirce. deal peircing damage (arrows)

Zombies: no real weaknesses, more resistant to all forms of damage. deal crush/slash damage

Spiders, resistant to slash, weak to crush/peirce. deal peirce/crush damage

Creepers: weak to fire (explode when lit on fire). explosive damage

Endermen: resistant to all forms of damage, weak to poison though. deal slashing damage (i like to think of their arms as sharp tentacle thingies)

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Endermen: resistant to all forms of damage, weak to poison though. deal slashing damage (i like to think of their arms as sharp tentacle thingies)

I always thought they strangled you to death.

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ok here we go

skelletons: weak to crush, immune to peirce. deal peircing damage (arrows)

Zombies: no real weaknesses, more resistant to all forms of damage. deal crush/slash damage

Spiders, resistant to slash, weak to crush/peirce. deal peirce/crush damage

Creepers: weak to fire (explode when lit on fire). explosive damage

Endermen: resistant to all forms of damage, weak to poison though. deal slashing damage (i like to think of their arms as sharp tentacle thingies)

Just saying, dunk made like an entire page post about what he is going to do with this.

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Just saying, dunk made like an entire page post about this.

and so did i

i think it was something about "reasons to fear the night" but idk sence nighttime in the overworld are going to be relatively safe

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Just saying, dunk made like an entire page post about what he is going to do with this.

That is another reason I said nothing about it :P

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...soooo...

...D&D plus cleaving.

I assume a scimitar will still have an 18-20 x2 crit?

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...soooo...

...D&D plus cleaving.

I assume a scimitar will still have an 18-20 x2 crit?

no, obviously its only going to be 17-19 x2 you silly
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no, obviously its only going to be 17-19 x2 you silly

...I smell a non-player.

All crit ranges go up to 20...

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Very good. A couple things though.

For weapon types, would you consider taking out a barbed arrow a cleaving wound?

Your armor values are great (maybe pierce on plate should be a bit higher), but consider piecemeal, scale-mails, and different overlaps of armors (banded mail, splint mail, butted vs. riveted chain, etc.)

Also, think about knockback and stun values, bone-breakage, blood loss, brain damage....

Okay, maybe that went a little too far, but still.

...soooo...

...D&D plus cleaving.

I assume a scimitar will still have an 18-20 x2 crit?

No, D&D was never this good. Think more GURPS, but just the hack and slash part, none of the actual "rpg" elements. Although that's what D&D calls their system.

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Pssh, rapiers are 18–20/×2 and cooler than scimitars.

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...soooo...

...D&D plus cleaving.

I assume a scimitar will still have an 18-20 x2 crit?

Haha :P .. Basically :)

To be fair, I actually thought of this system all by my lonesome just there :P

I learnt playing the forbidden version of DnD which had none of this depth or complexity :L

Very good. A couple things though.

For weapon types, would you consider taking out a barbed arrow a cleaving wound?

Your armor values are great (maybe pierce on plate should be a bit higher), but consider piecemeal, scale-mails, and different overlaps of armors (banded mail, splint mail, butted vs. riveted chain, etc.)

Also, think about knockback and stun values, bone-breakage, blood loss, brain damage....

Okay, maybe that went a little too far, but still.

No, D&D was never this good. Think more GURPS, but just the hack and slash part, none of the actual "rpg" elements. Although that's what D&D calls their system.

The armour values were more of a sample than anything else :)

A barbed arrow would probably be a light piercing wound with heavy cleave damage :)

I based the plate resistance to pierce on a bec-de-corbin or similar weapon, but you are right. I should have based it on a spear :P

If you really want values for some more armour types I could provide them :L

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I learnt playing the forbidden version of DnD which had none of this depth or complexity :L

...*slap*

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I learnt playing the forbidden version of DnD which had none of this depth or complexity :L

*Gasp*

And this is why I like Pathfinder. I can just imagine the cheesy television commercial:

'I can't believe it's not D&D!'

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Another Jed tier post. Top Bioxx as always (Bioxx is synonym for notch, c wat I did there?). Couldn't agree more! I really think bleeding should be a damage form too...

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Ahem boys, enough Dnd talk, This was an excellent suggestion, i would like to see more relevant content on the matter,

Another Jed tier post. Top Bioxx as always (Bioxx is synonym for notch, c wat I did there?). Couldn't agree more! I really think bleeding should be a damage form too...

I feel compelled to slap you for that comparison
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Ahem boys, enough Dnd talk, This was an excellent suggestion, i would like to see more relevant content on the matter,

you know thats what all these kinds of threads will eventually turn into
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Maybe eventually, but this is still page 2 >.<

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