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ChasedByBees

Would you kindly make SMP TFC compatible with vanilla clients, please?

28 posts in this topic

I'm okay with downloading and installing mods for Minecraft. Really, I am - but of my 300 or so online friends, only a very tiny percentage of them are, too. I'd like to play TFC Minecraft with loads more friends, but as it is now...

Friend: Oh, you're in Minecraft - what's the IP so I can join?

Me: [iP], but you'll need to install TFC.

Friend: Oh... No thanks, [1: I don't know how to install mods and refuse to ever learn how because I am seriously that lazy / 2: I tried installing it but I can't get it to work and am too dumb to take a screenshot of the problem or screenshare over skype or teamviewer or even send you a crash log so you can fix it for me / 3: I already have other mods installed, and they would probably conflict with TFC, so nothing would work for me anymore]

All three of those responses can be remedied by making it so that, in the SMP version of TFC, players don't need to download or install anything to play the game. I understand that this would probably involve modifying a *lot* of code at once, but at the same time, you've gotta realize: IT'S WORTH IT. Why? Because you're not going to see a 10 or 20% increase in how many people are interested in your mod: the number of people who know about your mod will at least DOUBLE if you make it compatible for them like that. Let's Plays and Mod Showcases featuring TFC would start popping up everywhere. And isn't that something you could really use more of?

Thanks for your continued work on TFC!

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Not at all, actually. See: The tens of thousands of mods for SMP that don't require players to install anything in order to join a server which utilizes heir software.

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And I will guarantee you that exactly 0% of those mods add blocks or items.

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Id like you to list 10,000 mods that are even 1.3.2 compatible, let alone that add even 1% of the content that is added in tfc.

If you want servers that distribute their content to clients wait for the mod api in minecraft 1.4.

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Simple. See: The majority of them, as it's now been nearly a month since 1.3.2.

I would, only I waited for the mod API when Minecraft alpha transitioned into beta. It didn't come.

I waited for the mod API when the game was released in what was considered "a fully finished state." It didn't come.

I waited for the mod API when 1.3 came. Still, the mod API hasn't come.

I've waited for it patiently for years - it wouldn't be prudent of me to base decisions on the release of the mod API any longer.

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Yeah, those mods exist... most of them, however, can't be used by the players who don't have the mod installed. You can get in the server even if you don't have the mod, but that doesn't means you will be able to use the mod if your minecraft jar file isn't prepared for that. And most of those mods are, as well, little mods: small mods that doesn't add anything, or if they do, those things they add are not blocks or items. TFC is a big ass mod, that doesn't adds one only block, but instead erases almost every single vanilla block from world generation and generates a world with it's own blocks and it's own generation algorithm, and makes this new blocks interact between themselves both in vanilla, old ways and new, TFC ways -like the gold panning and sluicing-. Oh, and adds entities as well. Did i forgot something?

Also, as the client jar and the server jar are now one only jar, what you are asking for sounds a little... impossible, to me?

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Any mod that adds blocks, mobs, mechanics and such, will require something installed on the client side as well.

A simple way to explain it is as follows:

Case 1: Server modifies how the terrain is built up, good examples are skylands for example. No new blocks added, no new monsters, simply another world generation, nothing required on the client side.

Case 2: The server contains a new block, let's say Granite. With this block comes a new item as well, namely Granite Rock. If the server tells your client that there are granite blocks, you need to have information for that block with all it's properties and the textures in your client. The same for new items, and mobs etc.

There are some mods(at least there is a bukkit plugin that does this, or plans to do this in the future), that will sync the servers mods with the mods in your client. This would mean that the server tells your client what you need, and it auto-downloads it. This would still require at least one mod installed on the client side, namely the mod that receives the servers information and initiates the download.

Short version, never going to happen with TFC as things are today(most likely not at all regardless if I understand correctly how things work).

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Tell your friends to watch

and if they still don't get it then they're just trying to avoid playing with you. Sorry, but if they cann't understand a 6min video showing them how, then either they still get spoon fed by their mother or they're making excuses.
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most of them can be used by the players who don't have the mod installed *

Fixed that for you. See: damn near every single plugin and mod for Bukkit. Hell, just making TFC compatible with Bukkit instead of Forge and the Player API would solve this.

"the client jar and the server jar are now one only jar." So, that's why I have a roughly 5mb large minecraft.jar clientside, and a roughly 2mb large minecraft_server.jar serverside, right?

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Cart - Thanks for the clarification. I'll bank on that Bukkit plugin coming out in the future, and hope I can find someone I can pay to make this Bukkit-compatible.

Ryuu - Yeah, I agree. Thanks!

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"the client jar and the server jar are now one only jar." So, that's why I have a roughly 5mb large minecraft.jar clientside, and a roughly 2mb large minecraft_server.jar serverside, right?

First, I know you're new here and all but settle down. Second, TFC doesn't go in the .jar anymore. TFC goes in the "mods" folder which MCForge creates the first time you run the modded .jar. Third, no modder in the world is responsible for what MoJang does with their file sizes.
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most of them can be used by the players who don't have the mod installed *

Fixed that for you. See: damn near every single plugin and mod for Bukkit. Hell, just making TFC compatible with Bukkit instead of Forge and the Player API would solve this.

"the client jar and the server jar are now one only jar." So, that's why I have a roughly 5mb large minecraft.jar clientside, and a roughly 2mb large minecraft_server.jar serverside, right?

Making TFC Bukkit compatible would hardly solve the problem, and last time I checked, spout/spoutcraft(the plugin that enables syncing between client and server) hadn't implemented a good way to add blocks, items and entities to server and client. Not sure if it was a limitation in bukkit itself or just not finished yet in the plugin. It's been a while since I read up on it, but last I checked this was the case at least.

I can see why you would want this feature, and I would be lying if I hadn't wished for it myself, but on the other hand, if someone can't properly install tfc and it's dependencies, would you really want to play such a complex mod with said person? Just a thought.

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Now, here we both are making a same mistake... you say there is lots of mods which can be used in SMP by players who don't have it installed in the client, i say there are none. Evidence? like, you can easily say "yeah, i saw the Sasquatch in my garden yesterday", but if you don't have proofs that support this, people will believe you are either liying or crazy.

I myself can show you a list of mods which can't be used in SMP if not installed in SSP. Now, can you show me those mods you say don't need the client side for working?

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I can see why you would want this feature, and I would be lying if I hadn't wished for it myself, but on the other hand, if someone can't properly install tfc and it's dependencies, would you really want to play such a complex mod with said person? Just a thought.

Agreed whole heartedly; yet at the same time, we shouldn't push those people away saying "This is my elite mod and you cann't play it." No no no, we should help them get started and if they decide it's too hard then fine, but we weren't the cause. I remember the first time I went to mod my .jar and it was scary, frustrating and confusing. Now I can install mods in my sleep. Don't not help people just because it's easy for you now.
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Another thing of note is that "mods" for Bukkit are an entirely different thing.

Bukkit doesn't use mods, they use "plugins". What Bukkit allows is for people to make plugins that inject basic code to into the game that modifies things in a small way. This includes giving chat based menus, being able to detect various parameters in the world and executing small changes in accordance, modifying small parameters such as block break speed and item drops.

What Bukkit cannot do with plugins is: Introduce new blocks, entities (mobs and items), textures, GUIs, or pretty much anything that makes a "mod" a mod.

You talked about converting TFC into a Bukkit plugin, I don't think you understand what that means. A lot of mods are not compatible with Bukkit servers (this was more a major issue during 1.2.5 and before, however it is still a major issue with any mod that uses Forge as well for the majority of them still out there). The main reason for this is that Bukkit runs on a different modified server jar and so for a vanilla mod that is SMP compatible to work on that modified jar, it has to be "converted" to Bukkit. Otherwise it is going to look at the Jar and go "What the hell is this". Now, just because it is now compatible with Bukkit does not mean it magically works how you are thinking it does, it just means you can run the server with Bukkit so you can have things running like Log Block or Essentials, etc.

Now, Spout has been mentioned, and while that is a handy tool, still requires users to install Spout (it is an .exe, so there is no means to bitch there, and it installs in a separate directory then .minecraft does, so no conflicts there). However, as Spout currently stands, it isn't perfect and still requires the mod to be converted to be Bukkit compatible as well as compatible with Spout and even then it wouldn't actually work.

A third option would be to use the fork of the Spout project used by Tekkit, again this would require the same running an executable issue as above and would still require the mod to be converted over to a Bukkit state. This option would work, but I do not know how the Devs feel about Tekkit (everyone is entitled to their opinions), they could just get permission to use the code for the downloader since it is open source, but still, that is a LOT of extra work for very little pay off since installing TFC is easy as hell.

Another thing to consider is also how much longer Bukkit will be around. With the merger of the code bases for SSP and SMP and the upcoming API, I really don't see Bukkit lasting that long, I mean hell, their development has been stagnating since 1.3 hit, and the three Bukkit developers that now work for Mojang kind of shat on the current state of Bukkit at PAX.

The fourth option, and this is going to be your best bet, is the API. What Minecraft is sorely needing is a server-client data packet transfer system that downloads the required mods or updates to the user as they log in, keeping this information in a separate folder keyed to that individual server. Jeb has mentioned this is something he wants to do multiple times in interviews and on twitter, so hopefully this will work. The best part of this is that the developers of TFC really shouldn't have to do much extra work outside making the mod compatible for the API update, whenever that comes around (and from the sounds of it at PAX, probably not 1.4 since that has a release date of this Halloween).

TL;DR,

Bukkit doesn't allow what you think it does, converting the mod to be Bukkit compatible doesn't do what you think it does, you'll have to wait for Mojang to push out the API or a Server-Client data packet transferring system (like in Gmod) for clients not having to install anything.

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hey a little hint for free... this mod is not for everyone in my opinion this friends of yours should stick to vanilla...

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I am no longer surprised by the things people think about programs, coding, software, mods, and the like.

I once had a client ask my company to produce an animated and interactive training program that would "run on both the iPad and in Internet Explorer 6." (And I did it!*)

To the original poster: not going to happen, not in a million years. It cannot be done for the same reason that you can't play Team Fortress 2 maps by running Half Life 2 (they use the same engine, afterall!) and it comes down to content. Just because you have one game, doesn't mean you have the content for the other game. And even if you did? The other game has different game logic.

*For those who are not aware, IE6 and Mobile Safari have nothing in common, and I accomplished two impossible tasks before being able to satisfy the client that it wasn't going to work out. And by "impossible" I mean literally impossible. I forget what the second thing was, but the first was finding a way to embed a video into HTML that would a) render on both the iPad and IE6, and 2) be able to control the video with Javascript. Go ahead, Google around for a solution to that problem. You won't find one. In fact, you'll find half a dozen blogs and articles saying that it can not ever be done (but I did it).

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Food for thought. You can make blocks behave differently with out client modifications. (See: dozens of Bukkit mods) You can also apparently force texture packs. (Not sure if that's been completely implemented yet.) ...So with some clever sleight of hand, some wool blocks, and a nice texture pack you should be able to add "new blocks" (at the expense of coloured wool) using Bukkit.

Not that this has anything to do with TFC. It's just too huge in scale to rely on parlour tricks.

Easy-mode mod installation will have to wait for the API. :U

Also Bill Clinton is speaking at my University. Cool beans.

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Also Bill Clinton is speaking at my University. Cool beans.

Joe Biden is coming to mine Wednesday.

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I've had a similar problem to the original poster of this thread, my solution to fix it was I gave the fully modded version to my friends who had legit copies of minecraft to try out via thumbdrive. Way I see it, I'm distributing yes, but only to people who I know to have full access. And the truth of the matter is, handing someone a thumb drive and saying "Try this better version of minecraft," is much easier than convincing them to find the mods or learn to install them.

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I've had a similar problem to the original poster of this thread, my solution to fix it was I gave the fully modded version to my friends who had legit copies of minecraft to try out via thumbdrive. Way I see it, I'm distributing yes, but only to people who I know to have full access. And the truth of the matter is, handing someone a thumb drive and saying "Try this better version of minecraft," is much easier than convincing them to find the mods or learn to install them.

that shouldnt be a problem, mojang and most modders just dont want you to publicly distribute their work. giving it to a friend is absolutely no problem (private copy).

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Agreed whole heartedly; yet at the same time, we shouldn't push those people away saying "This is my elite mod and you cann't play it." No no no, we should help them get started and if they decide it's too hard then fine, but we weren't the cause. I remember the first time I went to mod my .jar and it was scary, frustrating and confusing. Now I can install mods in my sleep. Don't not help people just because it's easy for you now.

I'm not in any way trying to be elitist, but to be perfectly frank, if you have a video tutorial, or even just a written tuturial on how to install it, it should not take more than five minutes, maybe ten if you really don't know what you are doing, to install forge, playerAPI and place TFC in the mods folder. I do it in under a minute when I have everything installed.

What I was trying to say was that with so many complex mechanics, like the newly added agriculture, fruit trees, smithing and smelting, anyone who can't install the mod is likely going to have a lot of trouble in-game. If someone helps them install, fair enough, I didn't say they shouldn't be given a chance to test the mod, just that they might not be to comfortable with all the new mechanics.

I'm sorry if I came off as a little hostile, but I wrote that around 4:45 in the morning, right before going to sleep. =P

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So with some clever sleight of hand, some wool blocks, and a nice texture pack

No.

1) There are 16 wool blocks

2) TFC uses 10 new metals, 20 other minerals, 23 kinds of stone, 16 kinds of tree (Vanilla has 3, and that isn't including the variations of fruit tree TFC has), 7 new interactive blocks (that use GUIs), 8 new tools, and 13 different kinds of gem that come in 5 qualities!

You're not going to replicate TFC with a bucket plugin.

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Food for thought. You can make blocks behave differently with out client modifications. (See: dozens of Bukkit mods) You can also apparently force texture packs. (Not sure if that's been completely implemented yet.) ...So with some clever sleight of hand, some wool blocks, and a nice texture pack you should be able to add "new blocks" (at the expense of coloured wool) using Bukkit.

Not that this has anything to do with TFC. It's just too huge in scale to rely on parlour tricks.

Easy-mode mod installation will have to wait for the API. :U

Also Bill Clinton is speaking at my University. Cool beans.

No.

1) There are 16 wool blocks

2) TFC uses 10 new metals, 20 other minerals, 23 kinds of stone, 16 kinds of tree (Vanilla has 3, and that isn't including the variations of fruit tree TFC has), 7 new interactive blocks (that use GUIs), 8 new tools, and 13 different kinds of gem that come in 5 qualities!

You're not going to replicate TFC with a bucket plugin.

Had you read the whole post, you would have seen that he said it wouldn't work for TFC, only that it is theoretically possible to add new blocks by changing already existing ones. (I'm not sure I agree with that reasoning, as the client also needs to know how blocks behaves, to render things properly and interact with the world. But what do I know, I could be wrong about that. xD)

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