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Treyflix

Damascus steel

36 posts in this topic

So I recently became very obsessed with the idea of a different metal then blue/red/black steel as the highest tier tools and did a excessive amount of reasearch. It turns out, while metals like Iridium (to heavy and brittle) titanium (too soft, can't hold a edge, too light) spent uranium (do I really need to say this?) sound attractive at first, the best metal (or material period currently) for sword smithing is Steel. The reason for this is steel contains a unique blend of the nessacary properties required for the ideal sword material. It can hold a sharp edge that isnt brittle, but still flex like a noodle when hit with out bending and return to shape properly, it has the appropriate weight for balence between lightness and heft, and as a bonus it is easy to work with and (relatively) cheap to produce.

Obviously once I found out that steel was superior material, I had to find out, what was the BEST steel that could be produced with the limited technology in TFC? This is where I came across a fascinating steel called Damascus steel. Not the modern stuff mind you, that's just a cheap reproduction. I'm talking about the stuff that was used in India during the crusades. Saladin himself was reputed to hold a weapon made of this fine steel when he met Richard the lionheart to propose the ending on the (can't remember, third?) crusade.

The steel held a edge better than anything else, and it never broke and hardly ever nicked. It was the ideal sword making material! And even crazier, it was made from high carbon steel (1.5%C) which is unpredictable and difficult to smith. Then suddenly in the mid 1700s the technique for reproducing dissapeared without a trace...

For three hundered years scholars have tried to crack the mystery of how such a amazing steel could be forgotten, and more importantly, how it was even made. Ever heard of carbon nanotubes? Super crazy strong stuff, but we have trouble making them even today. It's really tough. The Damascus steel blades has high amounts of these carbon nanotubes in their edges... How did smiths from the tenth century manage what we with all our modern tech barely can? A study has recently come out that finally explains it.

I will let you read it for yourself (or atleast skim it, it gets into pretty heavy science and is really long) but the gist of it is in addition to a extremly complicated smithing process, the steel that these blades were made from, Wootz steel, was smelted from a iron ore found from one mine. Unbeknownst to these smiths, trace amounts (less than 0.03%) of certain elements in the ore found in that particular mine was key to producing these incredible blades. The trace elements were as follows; Vandium, Molybdenum, Cr, Magnese, and Nb. The key elements being Vandium and Molybdenum.

Here is the full study, trust me it's fascinating!

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9809/verhoeven-9809.html

I'm not suggesting this, I'm saying we should disscuss suggesting this. Because this is just way to awesome to pass up and it could really fit into TFC well. (regular steel would have to require nickel like black steel is currently).

I probably presented this not so great, because as it always is when I decide to devote the time into creating a new thread, it's late and I'm tired. So I apologize in advance :P.

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Would add an amazing realistic end-game tool kits to the game but finding iron ore with those trace elements would be extremely difficult.

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anyway...how would you know you found the right iron? with the abilities you got with TFC....

But great thing you posted there, read it completly. Sounds very nice.

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Perhaps another ore in the code, that is still called hematite (cause that is what the ore in India that produced the Wootz steel was, hematite) but spawns in different stone layers then regular hematite and is obviously really really rare. Some one might notice that it is in the wrong stone layer if they know a lot about TFC, or maybe they don't.

If one smelts it he/she might notice it has a slightly different melting temp, or that it takes a slightly different amount of time to change temps in the forge. But only if they are observant and know much about TFC. Then if they recognize that it is this special hematite they can begin a special, complicated, smithing process to forge it into a Damascus blade...

Even if my idea isn't the greatest, I'm confidant that with the help of some of the more brilliant members of this forum we can figure out something that would fit well.

Edit: I'm not so sure about it spawning in different stone layers... The Wootz ore was not a new type of iron ore, it was just ever so slightly different. Spawning in other layers of stone suggests it is a new ore entirely doesn't it? Hmm, infinus, where are you!

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I like the idea of something that is so valuable you will probably never obtain it. You could say "what's the point of having it in the game if you won't be able to obtain it?" Well, you have a point. But this is already the case. There are ores you will probably never see. As Bioxx himself once said:

This is the nature of TerraFirmaCraft. Not everyone will be good at everything. This is by design. I don't WANT everyone to be masters at everything. Please accept this. Thank you.

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Exactly, it's a mix between a super top tier and a Easter egg. Best thing is it's TOTALLY REAL and awesome. But if you are a prospector in TFC, it's not so rare that you will never find it, it will just take you a while!

Also, the damascus blades have a unique pattern of striations in the metal that create a look that is a combination of rungs in a tree and ripples on water. It looks waaaay cool.

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I approve this idea. I'd rather try to get a proper "superior" blend of steel rather than the idiotically overpriced Red/Black/purple/turquoise whatever steels.

And the crusades were in in India?

hwat.

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@lol no, but the ore was mined and molten there and then shipped to damascus.

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This would fit in perfect with the post dunk made on the extra chisel functions thread! Here it is:

"I don't know if we're trying to make this a different game on SSP/SMP. I know the kingdoms update centres heavilly on SMP, but I think it does this without changing anything that exists on SSP as well. We don't really want to make two different games. I think the problems people have with smithing are a result of not having a proper understanding of how to smith. And I don't mean tedium and indecipherable instructions, I mean more intricate things. The whole GUI itself could be improved, but I think that's beyond us right now. If you look at history, you will see that a suit of armour was incredibly expensive, while in contrast, swords were relatively affordable for a middle class citizen. A well made suit of armour would have had hundreds of hours of work put into it. Due to vast discrepancies in the wealth of the wealthy and the poor in those times, the nobles who became knights were the only ones who could afford such expensive gear, today, private jets are about the same relative value, and that's because the skills of the blacksmiths who made it were so finely honed and skilled.

What I would like to see in the future of TFC is customization. The statue idea adds some of this, as it places the skill in the hands of the player, not their character. We want people to achieve things through their own hardwork. So while good statue makers might be able to craft better looking statues than other people, I think that blacksmithing should be an incredibly in-depth system. I don't want to bang metal on an anvil and come out with the same sword as my neighbour (even if the health bar is slightly different). With the additions suggested in the combat system, I think this could evolve into so much more. I think that things such as the length and angle of the edge could come into play. The weight, how it is distributed and the tapering of the blade. Your sword could be long and thin, making it quick and agile, but sacrificing strength against heavy or tough objects.

This gives armour possibilities up the wazoo. You could decide how you want it to look, (I'm sure a sprite could be generated based on a 2D rendering of what you make). This would allow you to customize how much material you put into it, which affects how heavy it is, how maneuverable you are while wearing it, but also how well it protects you, how likely it is to protect you (10 kilos of metal on your shoulders won't help your torso). Filigree and aesthetics also come into play, as you can shape this armour however you like. (with sufficient skill) you could craft a steel eagle into your helmet or a lion's head. You could encrust it with gems or trim it with gold. You would be able to mix and match plate and lighter armours to make the best armour you could.

So you see, this whole thing introduces a level of skill that is beyond minecraft and even TFC. This also ties back into the kingdoms phase, as it introduces more things to do

or to trade.

Basically, I want every single aspect of TFC to have incredible depth and detail, so that you never run out of things to do. The closer you look, the more you see.

Sorry for going off topic, but it sort of ties in."

But anyway you definetely have my approval for this idea!

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This would add to the AMAZING depth and detail in this mod, I LOVE this idea. The ore could be distinguished from normal hematite by a SLIGHT discoloration in the ore. BUT VERY SLIGHT. So, pretty much unnoticeable except to master prospectors.

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I did pretty much everything I wanted to do with blacksmithing back around 10-15 patches ago, but customizable armors, whether from rare ores or like Dunk said above about true customization (weight, ore used, etc) would probably bring me out of my carpentry/lumberjack rut.

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You all may like this video: http://www.pbs.org/w...ing-sword.html

My metalworking instructor told me about it the other day in class. Seems the vikings figured out how to create crucible steel 800 years before it's recorded "discovery" in the early industrial age.

*edit* oops, removed the period from link *edit*

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dead link for me jayeldog

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dead link for me jayeldog

Remove the last dot and it should work.
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Hey guys it's late but I just thought I would add some more to this topic, aperantly historians think the smiths who forge the Damascus blades used clay and milkweed leaves to create (of course the just. Knew it made it better, not the specifics) carbon nanotubes. Just keeping this threads discussion open, hoping for some dunk input.

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I love this idea because it would give knowledgeable players an advantage.

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Hey guys it's late but I just thought I would add some more to this topic, aperantly historians think the smiths who forge the Damascus blades used clay and milkweed leaves to create (of course the just. Knew it made it better, not the specifics) carbon nanotubes. Just keeping this threads discussion open, hoping for some dunk input.

How would carbon naonotubes be implemented into TFC?

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How would carbon naonotubes be implemented into TFC?

The carbon nanotubes explain how it was such a high quality blade. The smiths certainly didn't know they were creating carbon nanotubes, let alone that they were! Just another reason why these blades were incredible! Heck, we have a hard time creating and manipulating carbon nanotubes today! One of the toughest materials known to mankind...

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The carbon nanotubes explain how it was such a high quality blade. The smiths certainly didn't know they were creating carbon nanotubes, let alone that they were! Just another reason why these blades were incredible! Heck, we have a hard time creating and manipulating carbon nanotubes today! One of the hardest materials known to mankind...

...not as hard as my co-

oh nevermind...

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...not as hard as my co-

oh nevermind...

*Looks at his signature. It takes him less than a second to figure out what he was going to say*

Apparently, Bioxx's evil twin is... sick. Really sick. :

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...not as hard as my co-

oh nevermind...

Hah! I said toughest, not hardest, you changed the quote to make the joke there for the joke failed and is automatically not funny. :P

YOU. SHALL. NOT. PASS!!!

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Actually...i start to wonder why you are always talking about carbon-nanotubes... There is not one word about carbon nanotubes in the report you posted. What they are making is Ceramic compounds such as Fe3C and some with the impurities like vanadium. The vanadium and other impurities that form carbids is what makes this steel special.

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The carbon nanotubes explain how it was such a high quality blade. The smiths certainly didn't know they were creating carbon nanotubes, let alone that they were! Just another reason why these blades were incredible! Heck, we have a hard time creating and manipulating carbon nanotubes today! One of the toughest materials known to mankind...

Oh. Well that's amazing then!

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I watched a show on katana smithing once. It showed the process by which the blade of the sword is turned to steel while the back end remains iron. This is what gives the sword it's appearance of having a white blade relative to a black back. This is also what gives the sword it's curve: it's not shaped by the smith, instead the process of the iron turning to steel makes the steel somehow longer than the iron which causes the whole thing to bend in a perfect arc, which allows the sword to slash an opponent as it is drawn, unlike long swords or other swords in Europe.

The iron back gives it a springy-ness that the rigid steel doesn't have and the steel holds a very sharp edge, making a weapon that can take and deal hits.

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I watched a show on katana smithing once. It showed the process by which the blade of the sword is turned to steel while the back end remains iron. This is what gives the sword it's appearance of having a white blade relative to a black back. This is also what gives the sword it's curve: it's not shaped by the smith, instead the process of the iron turning to steel makes the steel somehow longer than the iron which causes the whole thing to bend in a perfect arc, which allows the sword to slash an opponent as it is drawn, unlike long swords or other swords in Europe.

The iron back gives it a springy-ness that the rigid steel doesn't have and the steel holds a very sharp edge, making a weapon that can take and deal hits.

*activate sword nerd mode* while the Japenese Katana is famous for being the supposed "sword standerd" of blades that can cut through anything by being able to hold a very very sharp edge and still bend and flex when it hits something hard, then snap back into place, some European and Asian sword smiths of high quality were able to match, or even top the highest quality Katanas. These Damascus blades I speak of were arguable the finest mankind was able to create until very very recently. The steel was tough, yet flexible. It held a edge and still flexed without breaking. It set the bar in steel for over 700 years...

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