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Treyflix

Damascus steel

36 posts in this topic

I'm dissapointed JAG, I expected you to have input and suggestions on this one. You too Ruyuu! I thought we were friends, *sniffle* :(

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I'm dissapointed JAG, I expected you to have input and suggestions on this one. You too Ruyuu! I thought we were friends, *sniffle* :(

I'm sorry, i have been reading this since you made the thread, but i really don't know what to say.

Other than "go, saracens!" as a reference to the AoE Saladin, which is part of that civilization : but that doesn't precisely helps, now does it?

However, i kind of like it, but... if that makes it into the game, let's just avoid to say "it uses carbon nanotubes to become the best alloy of the game!". There are already pretty much guys in the forums trying to get nowdays tech in the game, i don't want a guy suggesting space steam-powered battlecruisers because he thinks we are in some kind of steam-punk mod... Which may sound really cool, but just don't fits here :

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I'm sorry, i have been reading this since you made the thread, but i really don't know what to say.

Other than "go, saracens!" as a reference to the AoE Saladin, which is part of that civilization : but that doesn't precisely helps, now does it?

However, i kind of like it, but... if that makes it into the game, let's just avoid to say "it uses carbon nanotubes to become the best alloy of the game!". There are already pretty much guys in the forums trying to get nowdays tech in the game, i don't want a guy suggesting space steam-powered battlecruisers because he thinks we are in some kind of steam-punk mod... Which may sound really cool, but just don't fits here :

My apoligies, I have not really properly started the disscussion now have I?

Ok, after hours of research, I finally found the recipe for making a genuine Wootz Damascus blade! Here is the link (last two pages) (don't worry, it's super easy to understand!)

http://houtmannetje.nl/muse.pdf

Did you read it? ok, so here is how I think this should be translated to TFC:

So, there would another type of hematite that is named the same, looks the same, but has slight differences in the texture and the rocks it spawns in. You would throw this ore into the bloomery and take the resulting unshaped pig iron (again, same name, slightly different texture and actually different item) and put it in a Crucible (Essentially a larger, thick, enclosed ceramic mold, looks like a handle-less bucket with a lid[all the finest steels in acient time were made in a crucible]) with Charcoal and fresh leaves (obtained with Iron shears) (you would load it by putting the Crucible with a peice of charcoal, unshaped iron, leaf block, and clay (to seal the crucible in place of putty) . The loaded Crucible would then be smelted in a Kiln (fire pit eclosed in small space with a chimnney with insulating materials to control temp acurately [also used to create pottery and clay bricks {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiln}]) for about three ingame hours. Once finished, you would remove the freshly cooled Wootz Steel cake from the Crucible (resusable!). The cake would would have to be allowed to be completly cooled before removing from the crucible and reheated to start working. You would forge it into a unfished sword blade/toold head. You would then use some sort of tool-need help here, the guy used a drill, but thats kind of modern-to drill and cut the blade. this would be heated and worked on the anvil again, and then for the final step, polish -again, need help here, does TFC have any minerals that could be used for a weak polishing acid?- it, and wallah! you have you finished damascus blade.

another option would for it to be even harder would be when you polish, there is a small chance the pattern doesnt show up properly and you failed. perhaps from heating it a little to much? IDK, probs overkill :).

And of course, yes you wouldn't say carbon nanotubes. Steve doesn't know he is crafting a sword with carbon nanotubes and cementite nanowires or that small trace elements caused this particular vein of hematite able to be forged into a super blade, he just knows that he created a blade that not only looks awesome and mysterious with all kinds of swirly patterns, but can cut a silk cloth as it falls upon the blade (yes, these blades can ACTUALLY do that, how freaking cool?!) and tough enough that that edge won't nick when smashed against metal armor, yet still flexible enough that it doesn't snap. Or atleast not until it has taken ungodly amounts of beating, far far more than a normal steel sword.

I guess my idea behind this is these Wootz damascus blades where the finest mankind could possibly craft up until very recently. Not only were they beutifull (the swirling pattern on the blade is quite mesmerizing) and mysterious (the recipe was lost for centuries, and the acient smiths never understood how these blades where so strong) but the fact that these smiths managed to accidentally use freakin nano tech to crest this sort of "super blade" is just so incredibly cool.

I legitimately think Damascus blades would make a much more believable "highest tier" than fictional (and quite fake seeming, I mean really, melding precious metals with steel and nickel creates some superior, colorful steel? Ehhh, pushing the envolope) steel alloys.

In order to get this idea into a presentable form, I am asking YOU (not just you JAG, everyone who reads this) to help me flesh this out into a believable, balanced suggestion. For instance, in or for this to replace the colored steels, nickel would have to be a requirement for making regular steel (which is how it is in real life! Steel isn't just refined iron) to keep the sort of "I need to find nickel" block. Of course, this would bring gold and silver's value down significantly...

Help me out guys! :)

Oh god it's sooo freakin late now... Ugh.

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*activate sword nerd mode* while the Japenese Katana is famous for being the supposed "sword standerd" of blades that can cut through anything by being able to hold a very very sharp edge and still bend and flex when it hits something hard, then snap back into place, some European and Asian sword smiths of high quality were able to match, or even top the highest quality Katanas. These Damascus blades I speak of were arguable the finest mankind was able to create until very very recently. The steel was tough, yet flexible. It held a edge and still flexed without breaking. It set the bar in steel for over 700 years...

after reading your post, I actually did a lot of research into both blades, how katanas are forged and theories on damascus forging. I found this article very interesting: http://www.angelswor...askReport03.pdf

From the research I have seen, I agree that damascus steel was quite hard and made very good weaponry, but the presence of carbon nanotubes (while sounding cool) doesn't make it the best steel on the planet. Weapons and blades made from damascus steel WERE renowned for holding their edge, but that alone doesn't make a sword perfect. The folding and forging process that the katana undergoes (along with the specialized quenching and temperature control) graduates the blade to have a very hard steel for the blade and a very soft steel for the back. The rapid cooling of the blade causes the austentite to cool into martensite, creating crystals that expand, warping the blade into it's characteristic shape (although this isn't what makes it so useful). The point I'm trying to make is about toughness, not hardness. Toughness is the measure of how a material absorbs energy per unit volume. You can calculate it with the integral of the stress-strain curve. Toughness is the materials ratio of hardness to ductility (things that usually are mutually exclusive). The composition of the katana makes it much tougher than any single alloy could be; the hardened steel blade holds a sharp edge and cuts very well, but has the downside of being brittle. The softer steel back doesn't crack or bend under force, but is too soft to make a suitable blade. The process in which they are welded combines their abilities. An impact to the steel blade is transferred to the soft steel back, which is springy and absorbs the shock, preventing and damage from accumulating on the blade. A damascus steel blade would have to absorb all the energy that it recieves.

However, katanas are only usefull when used properly. I came across a DIY study someone had performed between what he claimed were a legimate katana and a legitimate european longsword. Katanas cannot be used in the way a long sword is. Trying to block a blow with the flat side of the blade or stabbing at a non-soft material (such as metal sheets) will damage the sword. Katanas can absorb damage with the sharp end of the blade, but not with the side, and the curve makes for a weakness when thrusting, the energy applied down the length is also applied outwards from the blade edge, which puts too much stress on the blade and weakens the thrust.

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after reading your post, I actually did a lot of research into both blades, how katanas are forged and theories on damascus forging. I found this article very interesting: http://www.angelswor...askReport03.pdf

From the research I have seen, I agree that damascus steel was quite hard and made very good weaponry, but the presence of carbon nanotubes (while sounding cool) doesn't make it the best steel on the planet. Weapons and blades made from damascus steel WERE renowned for holding their edge, but that alone doesn't make a sword perfect. The folding and forging process that the katana undergoes (along with the specialized quenching and temperature control) graduates the blade to have a very hard steel for the blade and a very soft steel for the back. The rapid cooling of the blade causes the austentite to cool into martensite, creating crystals that expand, warping the blade into it's characteristic shape (although this isn't what makes it so useful). The point I'm trying to make is about toughness, not hardness. Toughness is the measure of how a material absorbs energy per unit volume. You can calculate it with the integral of the stress-strain curve. Toughness is the materials ratio of hardness to ductility (things that usually are mutually exclusive). The composition of the katana makes it much tougher than any single alloy could be; the hardened steel blade holds a sharp edge and cuts very well, but has the downside of being brittle. The softer steel back doesn't crack or bend under force, but is too soft to make a suitable blade. The process in which they are welded combines their abilities. An impact to the steel blade is transferred to the soft steel back, which is springy and absorbs the shock, preventing and damage from accumulating on the blade. A damascus steel blade would have to absorb all the energy that it recieves.

However, katanas are only usefull when used properly. I came across a DIY study someone had performed between what he claimed were a legimate katana and a legitimate european longsword. Katanas cannot be used in the way a long sword is. Trying to block a blow with the flat side of the blade or stabbing at a non-soft material (such as metal sheets) will damage the sword. Katanas can absorb damage with the sharp end of the blade, but not with the side, and the curve makes for a weakness when thrusting, the energy applied down the length is also applied outwards from the blade edge, which puts too much stress on the blade and weakens the thrust.

Let me just clarify, I'm not saying that Wootz steel was the best on the planet. Far from it in fact, it was very high carbon and quite brittle. However, the Damascus blades WERE some of the finest swords ever forged without modern technology. Again, the forging process is absolutely vital! However not only were these blades the some of the finest ever, but their quality was connected to a material. The Wootz steel wasn't incredible, but it was absolutely required to make a high quality damascus blade! If you used any other steel than one with the right micro-inclusions of Vandium, Molybdenum, and Magnese (A.K.A, Wootz steel) with the 1.5% carbon content, you simply couldn't make a Damascus blade.

Trust me, I know allll about swords needing to be TOUGH not hard, and if I did ever say hard, please correct me. Everyone seems a little confused about these nanotubes so let me set the record straight.

Damascus blade a so extraordinary because the have the ability to both hold a incredibly sharp edge (typically associated with brittleness) and still bend and flex when they hit a target (typically associated with soft materials) without snapping. These blades are like so because of two key components in the metal. The first is cementite nanowires of Fe3C which make the blade incredibly sharp. However this would normally make the blade quite brittle, but not so with Damascus blades because in-between the nanowires there is also carbon nano tubes. Now, carbon nanotubes are freakin TOUGH, they're also very flexible. Basically, the presence of these two materials side by side creates a flexible yet sharp blade.

This is why I think these blades are so well suited to TFC. You have a rare material (Ore with the right percentage of micro inclusions) crafted with a complex and strenuous forging process to create a extremely superior blade that also is quite mysterious looking and beautiful (the striation pattern on the blade that indicates that it is a damascus blade). The Katana is a wonderful blade, but it has it's downfalls. Downfalls that the Damascus blades simply do not have.

All I need help with is ideas to properly translate this idea into TFC in a balanced way so I can write a proper suggestion!

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Let me just clarify, I'm not saying that Wootz steel was the best on the planet. Far from it in fact, it was very high carbon and quite brittle. However, the Damascus blades WERE some of the finest swords ever forged without modern technology. Again, the forging process is absolutely vital! However not only were these blades the some of the finest ever, but their quality was connected to a material. The Wootz steel wasn't incredible, but it was absolutely required to make a high quality damascus blade! If you used any other steel than one with the right micro-inclusions of Vandium, Molybdenum, and Magnese (A.K.A, Wootz steel) with the 1.5% carbon content, you simply couldn't make a Damascus blade.

Trust me, I know allll about swords needing to be TOUGH not hard, and if I did ever say hard, please correct me. Everyone seems a little confused about these nanotubes so let me set the record straight.

Damascus blade a so extraordinary because the have the ability to both hold a incredibly sharp edge (typically associated with brittleness) and still bend and flex when they hit a target (typically associated with soft materials) without snapping. These blades are like so because of two key components in the metal. The first is cementite nanowires of Fe3C which make the blade incredibly sharp. However this would normally make the blade quite brittle, but not so with Damascus blades because in-between the nanowires there is also carbon nano tubes. Now, carbon nanotubes are freakin TOUGH, they're also very flexible. Basically, the presence of these two materials side by side creates a flexible yet sharp blade.

This is why I think these blades are so well suited to TFC. You have a rare material (Ore with the right percentage of micro inclusions) crafted with a complex and strenuous forging process to create a extremely superior blade that also is quite mysterious looking and beautiful (the striation pattern on the blade that indicates that it is a damascus blade). The Katana is a wonderful blade, but it has it's downfalls. Downfalls that the Damascus blades simply do not have.

All I need help with is ideas to properly translate this idea into TFC in a balanced way so I can write a proper suggestion!

Cementite crystals are also present in katana blades, I think they form during the quenching that bends the blade. Carbon nanotubes are great and it's cool that they formed naturally, but at the carbon composition that damascus steel has (1.5%) they don't make a super metal (higher concentrations would make it terrible as it changes other properties). The folding process of katana smithing distributes the carbon incredibly effectively throughout the metal, minimizing natural weaknesses that non folded blades have.
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Cementite crystals are also present in katana blades, I think they form during the quenching that bends the blade. Carbon nanotubes are great and it's cool that they formed naturally, but at the carbon composition that damascus steel has (1.5%) they don't make a super metal (higher concentrations would make it terrible as it changes other properties). The folding process of katana smithing distributes the carbon incredibly effectively throughout the metal, minimizing natural weaknesses that non folded blades have.

Yes Katanas folding tech is quite amazing, but it still doesn't match a Damascus blade. The carbon nanotubes coat and surround the cementite wires. Here is a quote on the properties of carbon nanotubes:

"multi-walled carbon nanotubes (tubes within tubes) can have a tensile strength roughly fifty times greater than steel, at a much lower density and with significant flexibility."

Damascus steel -as far as I can find- seem to be the toughest, sharpest, and most flexible that could be made without modern technology. If you can find a study that says otherwise, because believe me I have looked, please show it to me!

Also, allow me to clarify; I'm not saying that the Damascus blades wielded by the Saracens in the crusades were superior to Katanas, because they were most certainly NOT. The steel created in the finished blade was what was extraordinary. The shape and general design of the actual swords were awful and quite easily trumped by even European swords. However, were this given to a smith well versed in high quality European broadswords, a fearsome sword could be crafted.

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While carbon nanotubes are great (never said they weren't) their presence in damascus steel isn't great enough to make it the best metal that could be historically produced. I have found no evidence in the historical records from archaeologists and metallurgists that damascus steel was anything more than slightly above average.

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Maybe add another ore inside an ore called ferrovanadium (vanadium is present in trace elements) and add an extensive smithing process that uses up some of the goddamned minerals which are everywhere.

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Maybe add another ore inside an ore called ferrovanadium (vanadium is present in trace elements) and add an extensive smithing process that uses up some of the goddamned minerals which are everywhere.

hmmm.... nah
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