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Bioxx

Official Death Penalty Discussion

262 posts in this topic

Ah, here's an idea: Dying makes nearby inactive chunks (chunks where monsters don't spawn if you've been there long enough) active, making monsters spawn again.

Forcing chunks to activate could potentially kill players computers that have less processing power. Wouldn't be a good idea.
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i don't think i was clear, i meant, the gui would be no different. you can see your current level, but not how that affects any stats, your point stands, you want to know how high you can jump? then jump.

Oh, you are thinking of continuing the system already in place I apologize, I misread a little. Okay so now I have to argue a different point. Our "XP" system is horrible for several reasons and you have corrected most of them but have missed one and started a new one of your own. The problem that isn't solved is the fact that things only improve when you "level up" instead of the more believable system where your "level" isn't an integer but rather a decimal or fraction this gives experience more of a smooth feeling, a more dynamic feeling.

The problem with your system in particular is that if I go fishing I will become a better miner. Yes, its simple but does it make sense? I would like to see a system of multiple types of "XP" all relate to different physical conditions for instance strength, speed or jumping ability. If you want to jump higher you probably want to jump. A nice addition to this would be a stamina bar (yes, it was suggested before I know) which could also be boosted with experience. This would make a good death penalty as well, if you spawn tired, slow walking and barely able to jump the game will certainly become more interesting. All XP stats would be hidden, although stamina would be a bar.

I wouldn't mind keeping the current XP system if it was only used in the way it was intended, for magic "energy" which required action.

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Forcing chunks to activate could potentially kill players computers that have less processing power. Wouldn't be a good idea.

What? I don't understand, it just makes the chunk able to spawn mobs anymore. It doesn't fill it with mobs.

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So guys, just to clarify, here is the suggestion by redundentsage that Bioxx is leaning towards. I kinda skipped over this some how, I think this does the same thing as the XP suggestion but more gracefully and less intrusive. I support!

A new underlying stat (sort of like saturation for hunger) would be "general health" versus the visible "health points". This has been suggested before, but always with other things added on that aren't that needed for a simple system.

General health is a pool that can be capped out at 1000, starting a fresh game with a new character starts you at 500 general health.

At maxed points you would receive 25% faster heal rate, 20% faster sprint, and 3 extra breath bubbles.

At at 90-100% you have max current stats. each 10% threshold below that removes half a heart/drumstick/air bubble, till you effectively have half stats at 0% general health. This means even after starving for a crazy long time and dying several times, the game is still playable, there's just a penalty for consistently playing badly. On the flipside, those who prepare, keep healthy and survive well will get a nice bonus.

General health would be promoted in several ways:

- Keeping fatigue above a certain point by eating food, like > 80%, would promote a gradual addition to general health. +1 per minute

- Eating high content food (3 or more drumsticks) would give a slight boost to general health. (aka bonus for meats and, hopefully eventually, prepared foods) +5 each

- Don't get injured for extended periods of time, kicks in after 5 minutes of not getting injured, but isn't turned off until taking at least 1 heart of damage so you're not punished for walking over floating dirt or a single small jump that's just a bit too far. +1 per minute

- Sleeping in a bed at night would give either a flat bonus if you fastforward to day or a gradual bonus if you just hang in bed like on SMP. +10 for fast forward, +1 per minute for simply "resting" at night while on SMP.

General health would be detracted from by the following:

- Taking damage also damages your general health, at 1 point per half heart lost. This means consistently going out and getting your body torn apart will gradually harm your health.

- Having < 20% of your hunger bar left will start to decrease your general health. -1 per minute

- Starving (no hunger bar left) will only take you to half of your max health, but your general health will start decreasing rapidly. -10 per minute.

- Drowning, poison, and fire causes you to lose 1 point of general health per half heart lost in addition to the point lost due to loss of health.

- Death cuts your general health in half. Meaning you technically start from ground zero in regards to general health if you die while at max general health. If you just started and you die, you're general health would be 250, still livable but not game over. This would mean the initial death would always suck the worst and subsequent deaths, while bad, won't cause you to become exponentially worse.

I think this gives a viable reason to live a healthy life, survive well, be cautious, eat good and prepared food, and in general avoid setting yourself on fire.

TLDR: Hobbits have stolen the precious and are currently roflcoptering their way into Mordor due to not being able to simply walk into it.

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Put me down for brutal and draconian. I am not going to suggest specifics as I fell like bioxx already has some ideas and they are sure to be great. Just do it. If you are worried tie it to a game mode so people can turn it off.

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Does anyone know where the Draco reference comes from? I keep thinking the dragonlance series.

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Maybe when you die, you could go into a different, crappy, dimension. Getting back to the original dimension would be challenging, and time consuming. This afterlife dimension wouldn't have much of value to do in it, making being stuck in it highly undesirable

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I noticed that there was much discussion on the subject of how starvation should be handled. I had a strange idea that might work if properly balanced, although that admitidly would be the main difficulty associated with it. It may even meld well with the general health idea proposed by redundantusage.

In short it involves starvation becoming less of a instant death situation, but more of a long lingering wasting away. This is accomplished by having random effects being placed on the player after a certain time period. For the sake of disscusion the time period I choose will be 30 seconds, meaning every 30 seconds a new effect would occur. The three effects I think are appropriate are nausea, stumbling, and health loss. These effects have a chance to appear represented as percents. Nausea is most common at 80%, followed by health loss at 15%, while stumbling is most rare at 5%.

It is best I describe what these effects mean. Nausea is the normal default minecraft nausea.. Stumbling involves the player falling down, due to weakness presumably, and being unable to move for a short period of time. The health loss is a half of a heart. All these effects will make starvation less of a death sentance but more of a desease that should be dealt with quickly. Part of the assumption behind this is that when death occurs hunger levels remain the same. However, health is set to 3 hearts so that if the player was starving after during death they will have at least 3 minutes, most likely more, to eat something.

Unfortunately I don't really know how hard it would be to implement, or the problems it would cause on larger servers. This is just throwing out an idea just for the sake of it.

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I noticed that there was much discussion on the subject of how starvation should be handled. I had a strange idea that might work if properly balanced, although that admitidly would be the main difficulty associated with it. It may even meld well with the general health idea proposed by redundantusage.

In short it involves starvation becoming less of a instant death situation, but more of a long lingering wasting away. This is accomplished by having random effects being placed on the player after a certain time period. For the sake of disscusion the time period I choose will be 30 seconds, meaning every 30 seconds a new effect would occur. The three effects I think are appropriate are nausea, stumbling, and health loss. These effects have a chance to appear represented as percents. Nausea is most common at 80%, followed by health loss at 15%, while stumbling is most rare at 5%.

It is best I describe what these effects mean. Nausea is the normal default minecraft nausea.. Stumbling involves the player falling down, due to weakness presumably, and being unable to move for a short period of time. The health loss is a half of a heart. All these effects will make starvation less of a death sentance but more of a desease that should be dealt with quickly. Part of the assumption behind this is that when death occurs hunger levels remain the same. However, health is set to 3 hearts so that if the player was starving after during death they will have at least 3 minutes, most likely more, to eat something.

Unfortunately I don't really know how hard it would be to implement, or the problems it would cause on larger servers. This is just throwing out an idea just for the sake of it.

I think this in combination with the general health system the other way would be great.

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The problem with death is that it doesn’t fit when trying to play Minecraft realistically. Death is a necessary thing that arises when a creeper comes too close, but realistic (permanent) death is simply an annoying gameplay mechanic when you’ve spent thirty hours advancing to the Bronze Age.

My solution for the TFC is inspired by a Game Boy Advance game I remember, called: “Tom and Jerry: Infurnal Escapeâ€. I remember the game being terrible for a ten-year old accustomed to Pokemon Sapphire Edition, but the gameplay mechanic I distinctly remember is how it dealt with death.

ChickenBot on gamefaqs.com explained: “An interesting thing about this game is that when you die, you appear in the Underworld and have to locate Tom's spirits. You find all three, and you get the chance to continue your progress through the game.â€

My solution for TFC’s death problem is to re-appropriate the Nether and turn it into a randomly generating obstacle course where three “Keys†have to be found before you can respawn in the real world.

I don’t really see how the Nether would serve any other purpose in this mod—portals aren’t very realistic. This solution would make the game harder and encourage people to be careful, but not be as ridiculous as waiting ten minutes or deleting your save file.

This solution would explain death as an illusion where you never truly die; rather you make like Ash Ketchum and scurry to the closest Pokemon Center… or bed, dropping your items along the way. The Hellish world you travel through is simply a nightmare that haunts you into taking life more seriously and watching your back more cautiously.

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I haven't played some Terra Firma in a long time, but I had just the same thoughts of a harsher death penalty when I played it, I had an idea for multiplayer that would make death feel punishing, but not too boring or rage inducing, simply put when you die you become a ghost, obviously as a ghost you can't die, you would probably be invisible for the most part yet would be able to show your self in some ways, in order to get you back to life, other players have to create a grave or memorial of some sort to commemorate you, nothing to complicated, or if you waited long enough you would automatically come back, as a ghost you would be able to have minimal interactions with other players, you could perhaps occasionally damage or push other players or do things that will scare them, all you abilities could serve as persuasion tools to give you a proper burial.

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-snip-

As Bioxx has stated before, there is space for fantasy in the mod : it is not about realism. And while that you said sounds kinda good... well, it should be moved to another dimension other than the nether. I would prefer the nether to become something close to what Dunk has said, rather than a bunch of random puzzles ._.

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Seems like this thread has gone dead and everyone's got their ideas out there. Hope we see some good death features soon.

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Some suggestions I've come up with while reading this thread:

(This is the choice I'd support the most)

-For anyone familiar with the much hyped (and criticized) WarZ skill system, perhaps you could use experience (and gems) to upgrade attributes of your character (such as stamina, health regeneration speed, or even the amount of hunger restored by food). This would create a strong purpose to survive, as your character will lose some (if not most) of their hard-won experience upon death. I think this system should be specialized, so if you do a lot of running then you will have a lot of endurance.

-When you die from something other than Pvp, you don't respawn in your bed or at your spawn point but instead spawn randomly around your active spawn point. Perhaps within render distance, perhaps just out of it. Wouldn't be a gamebreaker, you'd just have an FPS-shooter style jog back to the action (or your items). This might force turtling players to explore nearby areas as well.

-Perhaps you will have some sort of illness that will not be cleared until you have buried your previous body (your dead body turns into a static block, and attracts zombies and skeletons). Perhaps the illness would cap your food at 9/10 chunks, and make food less effective, so you can still heal but your body cannot be healthy until your previous body has been put to rest. Sort of a spiritual angle to the death penalty.

-If you die in SMP, your coordinates are given in public chat. Everyone can now get your items! Side effect of this is everyone knowing when a Pvp slaughter is happening.

-For a more mystical/magical feeling, perhaps you revive at full health and with your items, as if you had been perfectly resurrected. However, you'd have a buff for up to 15 minutes depending on how you died that makes hostile mobs more easily aware of your presence, as if they knew you had been recently revived.

-If you die (from non-pvp), you turn into a zombie and have to be slain by another player in order to respawn. If you kill a player before you are killed, then you respawn with all of your items.

-Respawn with bandages on your head for 1 in-game week, that covers the top 1/6 of your screen. No other penalties.

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My solution for TFC’s death problem is to re-appropriate the Nether and turn it into a randomly generating obstacle course where three “Keys†have to be found before you can respawn in the real world.

Oh Djang! That is a neat idea. You could even in the nether as a zombie pigmen (immune to lava), so you can't suicide again. The only problem with procedurally generated puzzles is that sometimes you might be stuck with a crystal embedded in a tiny pocket at the top or bottom of the map, so it'd be tricky to code it so it works 100% of the time. Perhaps it could be in a large area that is always the same, sort of a static obstacle course where the crystals can be at different spawns? Or how about a jumping puzzle, everyone loves jumping! They can't be too hard though - we can't exclude the people who barely have enough skills to survive in TFCraft

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i think that the death penalty should be you will spawn within 100 or more blocks from where you died and you only have half of your hearts that can only be healed by an ointment or maybe killing hostile mobs

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can only be healed by ... killing hostile mobs

This basically means that you bound to roam around the map in search for poor little creepers untill your supplies of ointment grow back on the field, since there's hostile spawn protection mechanic and those supplies are bloody long to grow back. You people seem to enjoy to slap others for their mistakes very much.
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This basically means that you bound to roam around the map in search for poor little creepers untill your supplies of ointment grow back on the field, since there's hostile spawn protection mechanic and those supplies are bloody long to grow back. You people seem to enjoy to slap others for their mistakes very much.

as I have been personally reminded by one of the devs, this game is supposed to be unforgiving, harsh, so.. slapping people for making mistakes, seems perfectly appropriate.

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there is a point where the slapping will turn players away, and when players turn, they stop telling friends. when that happens, the mod begins to die.

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there is a point where the slapping will turn players away, and when players turn, they stop telling friends. when that happens, the mod begins to die.

I believe this to an extent. Either we keep slapping minimal, or we slap hard and often like DF until the definition of "fun" changes like it did for them.

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there is a point where the slapping will turn players away, and when players turn, they stop telling friends. when that happens, the mod begins to die.

No, giving too much will cause the mod to die, because the selling point of this over Minecraft is precisely that reinforcement it lacks. There may be players who don't enjoy that, but saying it will reduce players is silly, there are still people looking for decent games with difficulty that doesn't give you a pat on the head when you make a mistake, there's little enough of them around, so this game will always have players, maybe not the same ones, but that's perfectly fine, that's why this exists, to create a new group of players.

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Thing is, some of these will just make the game literally impossible after dying. If someone couldn't survive with full hearts and everything, what makes you thing they could with 2 hearts and whatever other debuffs they'd end up with? I know that people aren't meant to be excellent at everything, but it should really be possible for everyone to reach the lowest level of competence (being alive). The players killing themselves to restore hunger is a problem with the player, not the game.

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Thing is, some of these will just make the game literally impossible after dying. If someone couldn't survive with full hearts and everything, what makes you thing they could with 2 hearts and whatever other debuffs they'd end up with? I know that people aren't meant to be excellent at everything, but it should really be possible for everyone to reach the lowest level of competence (being alive). The players killing themselves to restore hunger is a problem with the player, not the game.

They didn't die because game too hard

they die because not careful.

It's pretty easy, I don't feel any deaths in Minecraft or TFC are the result of the game being too hard, they're all because I made one stupid mistake(or usually many in a row) which lead to death.

Establish the rules of the world, is this a survival game?

Then surviving isn't the barest minimum, it should be something you have to fight for, otherwise you may as well just go paint a painting, If the goal of the game is survival, you can't just give the players survival, you have to make them claim it, fight for it, and eventually, through perseverance, will, time(and upgrades) conquer it.

But you most certainly shouldn't start on the conquering. That is the last step.

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The selling point for me was 'this is harder, and challenges you more then VMC.' Not 'Oh hey, I know you died n stuff, but we are going to make it impossible to try and live again'

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This could be solved with one button.

Death Penalties [On|Off]

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