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Bioxx

Official Death Penalty Discussion

262 posts in this topic

working with copper for so long eventually leads to understanding bronze.

That's even worse. That means every time I get pushed off a cliff I should waste ungodly amounts of resources to "understand steel" once again. And not even iron - all tiers starting from tin. You might as well force hardcore mode, at least it's not so frustrating.

1). When is the last time you went underground and mined ore and smelted it into Iron? have you ever harvested Hemlock? In what part of the plant would you get the seeds from? You can actually eat a puffer fish... but if you dont know what you are doing you could poison yourself and die.

If I spent all my life mining tin where do I get knowledge about hematite from? Sure, some ores look similar, but this exact thing tells that if I know how ore look like, I know about cassiterite AND hematite. And I'm able to break a hematite just like any other stone.

Same thing with others. If you spent time collecting roses, do you get to know where Hemlock seeds are? If you catch thousand goldfish, do you get to know that puffer is poisonous? I bet you should try to eat it first or feed it to someone.

Why is killing any creature in any game going to put more blood in anyone's body (HP) so they can take more of a beating?

Because you swing weapon to kill it and thus develop strength.

Now imaging a full set of plate armor. Ever been on the back of a Nisean Horse in metal armor? I would have trouble soiling myself properly in a set of plate armor honestly. It takes work, study, and dedication to not just wear a set of armor, but acclimating oneself to use it in combat (balance, stepping, etc...)

But do I need to kill someone to learn how to wear plate armour?
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The more I read this thread, the more I am coming to believe that the people opposed to death penalties aren't actually interested in playing a game, they just want a time sink.

It's as if they want free reign over the world like Creative Mode, but want it to take forever like Survival Mode. They just don't want any real difficulties imposed on them. (Gathering materials is not a difficulty, it is a time sink. Difficult implies that skill is required.)

P.S. I have already anticipated the rage that will follow this post. I do not care.

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for the most part, the penalties I am against are any caused by respawning. If you spawned in perfect health when you first started the map, you should damn site respawn in perfect health. you should never go under what you FIRST started as. Now, if you decked in armors, had a nearly limitless pool of health pots and more, you SHOULD naturally loose all of that to the environment. VMC already has this system and we are faced with the problem of users choosing death to prevent the debuffs caused by life. they want the easy route. Nothing is easier then respawning. in this post I have outlined that respawning should be JUST like your first spawn. I have also pointed out the issue at hand for the umpteenth time. This leaves us with three very clear options. four if you count doing nothing, which I do not.

One is to make all newly spawned no matter what have debuffs that outweigh any buff gained from death. As much as I disagree, food, water, etc being maintained though death is an option. I also disagree with any debuff such as slowness weakness etc that occurs on spawn. However, thease are all options IF and ONLY IF they occur to ALL players no matter how they spawn or respawn.

two is to make death cause world based debuffs, such as my zombie based debuff where a players body remains in the world while causing spawns to max out and generally making the area unlivable until the problem is dealt with. Another, to a lesser extent the same thing, is to just make 'home chunks' be inverted and spawn mobs in them. there is a lot that can be done with this option and I agree entirely with making death cause harm to the world.

three is to create an advanced buff system fueled by survival and its actions. This system would slowly build a character up from nothing into someone capable of being a armor less tank, something that in reality is quite feasible if given the right circumstances. Cutting a tree over time trains you to be more efficient at it, cutting your time in half if you work at it enough, using your armor long enough trains you to move with it, and turning it into a new skin, eventually you can drop your shield in favor of it. I like this system a lot, but it has no accompanied debuff, something I dislike. Combine world debuffs with this real world temperament system, and you make for an amazing death penalty system where not only are people afraid of dying, they find living to have many rewards that no respawn would ever satisfy

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Note: I play hardcore mode. When I die, I start a new map, so I don't really care about the death penalties put in place. As such, I believe my opinion to be reasonably objective.

Getting better at things, and then having those improvements taken away on death is a classic implementation of death penalties (I believe that Dungeon and Dragons was the first to capitalize on this method). It would require the implementation of a leveling system in some way or another, but if this were not an issue I believe that this is one of the better options. However, until there comes a time where a leveling system can be put in place, such a death penalty is not an option as there is nothing to lose.

In the game's current state, I believe that debuffs caused by death is the most reasonable method, despite being far less inconvenient than losing any improvements a player would gain via a leveling system. Respawning with 50% health/hunger costs the player the following:

  • Food to refill hunger.
  • Time to heal to 100%
  • Time to retrieve items.
  • Any items which may be lost during death (despawned or burnt).
The problem with this, is that as the player invests more time into their game, these penalties become increasingly trivial. As food stores are built up and inventories are padded with extra metals and tools, the player will care less and less about having to refill their hunger bar and/or losing items. Essentially the cost becomes:
  • Time to refill hunger.
  • Time to heal to 100%
With a system such as ECC has suggested, the cost is the following:
  • Food to refill hunger.
  • Time to heal to 100%
  • Time to retrieve items.
  • Any items which may be lost during death (despawned or burnt)
  • Time to earn back any lost improvements.
  • Any tools/items required to earn back lost improvements.
As the player invests more time into their game, food and item loss still lose their relevance, but the time and tools required to earn back any lost improvements will become more and more pronounced, until it reaches a point where the player is truly terrified to die...

This death penalty system could be strengthened further by changing how death affects a player's inventory. If killed by a player, the inventory should be dropped as normal, as a reward to the victor. However, if killed by a mob, the players inventory could simply be cleared out. This would strengthen the penalties of death for both low and high level players, although it would have the largest impact on low level players who do not have extra tools. This has the possibility of equalizing the death penalty across all levels of play.

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clearing out hurts in game communities, no mp based dev in their right mind would want. Though bioxx cant exactly be in his right mind, considering the insanity it is to have even started this mod ;P

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clearing out hurts in game communities

Sorry, I don't understand this. Can you explain how it would hurt?

Or do you just mean how it would destroy resources faster?

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I don't like clearing inventory too, for the same reason basically.

Besides, what do you mean when saying I don't care about my steel gear that I lost in accident involving several stupid chains of reaction?

I guess, I'll try to post some ideas I have.

This involves corpses mechanic. Let's all have our own corpses, I say (except for zombies, nobody likes them anyway. And skeletons. Possibly creepers as well). So what happens when you kill a cow? It leaves a corpse behind, which you can cut to get meat, that's boring part. Now, when you leave corpses laying around they can walk away by themselves. Or bite you couple of times, whatever.

But what if you get killed? You leave corpse too. And it can walk by itself too. Although it burns with rage and from anyone it will pick you to get killed first (but if it can't it will find someone else), it won't burn in sunlight. It wears your armour and uses your tools and weapons (if you had one on you) and breaks them Very quickly. If you kill it you can have your stuff back, but you can't destroy a corpse. You can prevent any corpse from walking away by surrounding it with blocks. Although if you will ever try to destroy any block surrounding its grave - it will attack you immediately.

Now, I don't know as to how good it actually can be in terms of slapping players for dying, but you will be able to build a nice graveyard.

Sorry, I don't understand this. Can you explain how it would hurt?

Or do you just mean how it would destroy resources faster?

Not only it will destroy resources very fast, but losing community pickaxe is far worse than your own pickaxe.
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I like the idea of corpses, but not so much the idea of them coming back to life. It just feels like it doesn't fit. I may have Dwarf Fortress stuck in my head too much.

As for not caring about gear:

It happens in vanilla all the time. You play the game and get a ton of iron, so when you lose your iron armor you would rather just make new armor instead of running down into a cave to get your old armor back.

The same thing can happen in TFC, it would just take longer since resources take longer to gather in TFC and you have the added difficulty of smithing.

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You play the game and get a ton of iron, so when you lose your iron armor you would rather just make new armor instead of running down into a cave to get your old armor back.

Like I said, I'm not "efficient" like that. You know how many times I ran back naked dodging arrows and blasts to get my stuff back?

Well, not that many, because I prefer not to die, but I do this every time I die. But still, now you have the challenge to get whatever the hell you died in less than five minutes. If inventory got wiped, there won't be any of that anymore. And can you explain please why exactly it gets wiped? I know just so many things that can destroy an item and zombie is not one of them.

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Point taken.

It was merely a suggestion which would make the death penalty stronger.

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Anyone who thinks it's a good idea to stop someone from playing a game for a period of time because they died is a moron. A complete and total moron. Video games should be challenging. They should not be designed to frustrate you for no good reason.

You people just don't understand how the mind of a griefer works. Via death bans on SMP, you are giving a griefer a highly effective tool that literally makes someone stop playing the game. Your idea for death bans just makes the game worse. It adds nothing of value.

If you want some sort of penalty for dying, how about the fact that, in the system Bioxx implemented in build 56, you restart as a level 0 again, hungry and injured? That's enough of a handicap as it is, considering how hard TFC can be.

Jesus Christ, do you even stop to think about things? Can you imagine implementing something like this in another game, like a Mario Game? "Oops, you died, you can't play for 30 minutes". I don't want to log into a server for the first time only to be killed by some griefer in full steel armor with a steel sword and then be disconnected from the server and unable to rejoin.

Simply losing all your stuff and coming back weakened when you could have been an uber badass is penalty enough. This mod already walks the extremely fine line between complexity and tedium, and we don't need it moving over in the tedious instead of complex.

If I were to propose a system, it would involve wound tracking, which would probably be annoying to implement, since I highly doubt the Minecraft engine is set up for something like that. Players would never be killed. They would be "knocked out". A "knocked out" player respawns at their spawn point, without any XP (and the increase in HP XP now brings), or items, with low HP and Hunger and Water. We will assume that some good Samaritan dragged them back home. With wound tracking, there would have to be a system of medicine added to the game. For example, if I fell from a great height, when I "come to" back in my room, my legs would be broken and I would suffer a penalty to move speed and be unable to sprint. This would slowly go away on its own, or you could speed up the process by creating and using splints and crutches. Or someone else could have to use the splint on you.

There are lots of other possibilities, which I leave as an exercise for the attentive reader.

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There are lots of other possibilities, which I leave as an exercise for the attentive reader.

You should be more attentive in your reading. The "death = ban" issue was addressed a long time ago, sans your rage.

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One thing I'm currently irritated about is the mentality people have about "losing the community pick," and how any death penalties should avoid that possibility. I have a question: Why are so many people against a death penalty option that is fair with it's punishment? Let's change the scenario a bit: you die in lava, community pick is lost. Most likely, the community gets mad at you and gives you a lot of flak for it, because you did something stupid. Now, how is this so drastically different than something that'd wipe your inventory? There really isn't any difference. What looted your stuff? Well, since mobs now carry equipment, what's to say they didn't nick your stuff and wander off? I mean, how do the mobs get the equipment in the first place?

Back to the community part, of course you should be able to lose the community pick. If you can lose it to stupidity or carelessness anyway, that should apply to any careless or stupid death, not just deaths involving lava and fire. Plus, on top of any other death penalties, you have the community irritated at you for losing a shared item, which you probably deserve. Also, if your community is unable to afford making a new pick, then your community is rather idiotic or horribly misfortunate, since it's always a good idea to have a stockpile of metal to work in case of an emergency, and the only reason you shouldn't have one is either you just started, or you've found very little in the way of metal.

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You should be more attentive in your reading. The "death = ban" issue was addressed a long time ago, sans your rage.

People don't feel a need to read the Kingdoms Discussion thread, I didn't feel a need to read the whole thread here.

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Anyone who thinks it's a good idea to stop someone from playing a game for a period of time because they died is a moron. A complete and total moron. Video games should be challenging. They should not be designed to frustrate you for no good reason.

I'm sorry, I just have to wonder, have you ever heard of hardcore mode?

And are you aware people enjoy it?

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People don't feel a need to read the Kingdoms Discussion thread, I didn't feel a need to read the whole thread here.

That is where you are wrong. People simply CAN'T read through 30 fucking pages just to see if they idea was or wasn't posted. As well as you can't read the whole 10 pages to see if death penalty was up or down by now. I mean, you can, but no one will spend 20 minutes of their lives reading discussions that don't have anything to do with them.

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In the real world, if you die with a sack of gold, that sack stays with your body until it is found.(in extreme cases this is not true, though these cases are rare) Any death penalty that does not allow this is not worth it.

also, hardcore mode is a CHOICE, and should not be forced on any other player who did not specifically check it off. Its hard enough surviving in tfc without having hardcore mode shoved down your throat.

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I'm sorry, I just have to wonder, have you ever heard of hardcore mode?

And are you aware people enjoy it?

Are you aware that some of us don't want it forced down our throats because a minority like it?

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Are you aware that some of us don't want it forced down our throats because a minority like it?

Yes, well, that statement doesn't really cover only "moron. A complete and total moron." adding features like that in to the game.

perhaps you should speak more accurately, you don't like it. Nobody will fault you that, but don't just go calling people morons unless you're talking about something that isn't 100% a matter of opinion.

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Yes, well, that statement doesn't really cover only "moron. A complete and total moron." adding features like that in to the game.

perhaps you should speak more accurately, you don't like it. Nobody will fault you that, but don't just go calling people morons unless you're talking about something that isn't 100% a matter of opinion.

It's not a matter of opinion. Making a horrible mechanic that a few people might like but that a majority of the population would not like mandatory is something that only a complete and total moron would do.

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Wow. Bicker City, huh?

I REALLY like the idea of growing your health pool as you spend time in the game alive. Sort of like growing older, wiser, stronger. You want to work hard to stay alive so that you continue to improve your health stats. Maybe it takes less time to get hungry, etc. But this is good because it REWARDS players for staying alive. When you die, *ploop* back down to original health/strength. All that time you spent in-game, growing your health pool to 2000 units (instead of 1000) is now all gone down the drain because you were careless and put yourself in a bad situation (or didn't start up your agriculture and had no food to eat!). Imagine the legends that would arise, players staying alive for years and years and having maxed out their health pools and are nearly indestructible now, all because they were careful, set up the right industries to SURVIVE and were rewarded for doing so.

As for items, you should loose everything. What do people fear more than losing all of their precious items they spent so much time working on? Going out to mine? Better leave those ingots at home (what use are they to you in the mine anyways?) Only take with you what you need. I don't know how the game handles mobs and they weapons/armor they use, but it would be great to distribute your items out to them. Maybe scatter them across the map (this would be interesting for servers). Then, you could actually go looking for that bow you lost, find a skeleton shooting you down with it, kill the sucker, and reclaim your bow!

Just a side note on mob deaths/corpses/etc. When mobs die, you should have to loot them. The normal drops you get should be on them. When you loot this corpse, you have to take all their stuff, then the corpse disappears. If you don't loot the corpse, it will disappear within 5 minutes (to help the game out, expire un-used objects). Maybe zombies have a 50% chance to re-animate and come back for more!

As for injuries and ailments, that's a whole other ball game. I like the idea of small debuffs for injuries, and a medicine system would be cool. But this is a death penalty thread. And I think there shouldn't be any debuffs to a player when they die.

Players should not be turned into corpses. Scatter their items, throw them back in their beds. Deplete health pool back to normal status.

Edited by dockwithme
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It's not a matter of opinion. Making a horrible mechanic that a few people might like but that a majority of the population would not like mandatory is something that only a complete and total moron would do.

Again, this is not true, if TFC was designed as a profit making venture it would not make sense, but in terms of making a good game, your opinion is in the minority as only a minority would even think of playing TFC, design is made for a minority, whether it's the one you're part of or not, your opinion is different from my opinion, is different from most people's opinions, you choose one as a developer, but you must acknowledge that it is still that, a personal preference.

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Again, this is not true, if TFC was designed as a profit making venture it would not make sense, but in terms of making a good game, your opinion is in the minority as only a minority would even think of playing TFC, design is made for a minority, whether it's the one you're part of or not, your opinion is different from my opinion, is different from most people's opinions, you choose one as a developer, but you must acknowledge that it is still that, a personal preference.

This whole issue [debuffs vs no debuffs, banning, timeouts, etc] is solved by using Difficulty settings, just like in vanilla.

--Really meant to answer the whole question of people not wanting hardcore/punishments/etc which brought everyone to this point.

Edited by dockwithme
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It's not a matter of opinion. Making a horrible mechanic that a few people might like but that a majority of the population would not like mandatory is something that only a complete and total moron would do.

Oh, you seem to be so well informed! Did you ran a poll? A public opinion research? Hey, silly me! A majority of the population talked to you about this!

Besides, it is Bioxx's mod, if he likes it that way and he feels it should be like that then he will make it like that, you don't like it? Download Eclipse, MCP, Java SDK and Forge src. Sure you can complain, but don't call others morons because of your narrowed mind. Ok? Thanks.

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Wow. Bicker City, huh?

I REALLY like the idea of growing your health pool as you spend time in the game alive. Sort of like growing older, wiser, stronger. You want to work hard to stay alive so that you continue to improve your health stats. Maybe it takes less time to get hungry, etc. But this is good because it REWARDS players for staying alive. When you die, *ploop* back down to original health/strength. All that time you spent in-game, growing your health pool to 2000 units (instead of 1000) is now all gone down the drain because you were careless and put yourself in a bad situation (or didn't start up your agriculture and had no food to eat!). Imagine the legends that would arise, players staying alive for years and years and having maxed out their health pools and are nearly indestructible now, all because they were careful, set up the right industries to SURVIVE and were rewarded for doing so.

As for items, you should loose everything. What do people fear more than losing all of their precious items they spent so much time working on? Going out to mine? Better leave those ingots at home (what use are they to you in the mine anyways?) Only take with you what you need. I don't know how the game handles mobs and they weapons/armor they use, but it would be great to distribute your items out to them. Maybe scatter them across the map (this would be interesting for servers). Then, you could actually go looking for that bow you lost, find a skeleton shooting you down with it, kill the sucker, and reclaim your bow!

Just a side note on mob deaths/corpses/etc. When mobs die, you should have to loot them. The normal drops you get should be on them. When you loot this corpse, you have to take all their stuff, then the corpse disappears. If you don't loot the corpse, it will disappear within 5 minutes (to help the game out, expire un-used objects). Maybe zombies have a 50% chance to re-animate and come back for more!

As for injuries and ailments, that's a whole other ball game. I like the idea of small debuffs for injuries, and a medicine system would be cool. But this is a death penalty thread. And I think there shouldn't be any debuffs to a player when they die.

Players should not be turned into corpses. Scatter their items, throw them back in their beds. Deplete health pool back to normal status.

I like everything except the grayed out section. I am highly against a system where items simply disappear. Even if they get randomly distributed throughout the map... what even explains that?! That's not even believable. If a mob walks over the items, then yes that's fine. But I don't think the items should simply 'teleport' to other mobs.

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