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EternalUndeath

Weapon/tool 'finishing'

58 posts in this topic

Well I originally thought that I might put this into one of the repair/improvement threads already out there, but I feel this constitutes a significant enough difference from those to warrant its own thread.

So here's the idea - in D&D (which we seem to be drawing a lot of inspiration from lately), there's a variant of any given weapon called a 'Masterwork' weapon. It confers a bonus to hit chance, but not to damage, and is non-magical. Only masterwork weapons and armor can be enchanted.

Well, I looked at that, and I figured... 'What if there was a way to get higher-tiered tools at any metal age?'

So, here's what I think for-

Tools/weapons:

Item + knife (in craft grid) = tool head/sword blade (the stick is lost).

heated item + anvil (with new rule set and target area) = 'finished [item] head/blade stage 1'

'Finished [item] head stage 1' + grinding wheel* = 'finished [item] head'

*smooth stone + chisel + stick + wooden pressure plate

The grinding wheel UI has a similar 'progress bar' as the anvil, only instead of the target being a range, it's a point which varies from item to item. You click the various buttons to move the progress marker just like in the anvil, but once you get close enough to get the product, a previously greyed-out 'finish' button becomes available. A pedal button will need to be constantly pressed to increase the 'speed' meter on the side, similar to a temperature bar. Certain metals will require certain speeds to be grindable (idea credit to ECC). Other buttons include Grind (large movement right), Buff (moderate movement right), and Polish (small movement right). The grinder has similar rules to the anvil, preventing you from just polishing everything to perfection (such as grind last, etc...)

The closer the marker is to the goal, the better the durability, but if the marker goes past the goal entirely then the tool is ruined and you get a broken tool head*. Not going over and hitting 'finish' in the proper zone, gives you a "'Finished' [item] Head/Blade", which carries half the durability of the completed item.

*Can only be tossed into the bloomery for 90% of the metal back

The handle will have to be made separately. I'm thinking that for the meantime, you craft together a knife, log, leather, and a gem, and the quality of the gem determines the durability of the handle (which makes NO sense, and is only a placeholder idea until the woodworking update gives me something to work with on this). The handle will also carry half the item's durability with it.

You just combine the handle and finished head like you would a regular head and a stick, and get your 'finished' tool, the current and max durabilities of the 2 parts being added together for the final item.

Armor:

heated armor piece + heated metal sheet + flux = finished armor piece stage 1

finished armor piece stage 1 + anvil/hammer = finished armor piece stage 2

finished armor piece stage 2 + grinding wheel* = finished armor piece

*rules for armor are always: Polish last, Buff not last, Polish not last

For steel armor and up, you also may have the option of crafting a feather onto the stage 2 armor piece to get a plumed finished helm. This, however, changes the rules for the grinding wheel for the final step. Since these are only available on high-tier armors, change the normal layout of the process, and MUST be added mid-crafting (preventing people from getting a helm from someone else and just tacking the feather on themselves to increase the value).

Concluding:

Finished items are separate items from their normal counterparts (not like there's any shortage of item IDs, hell...), and are 20% 'better' at whatever it is they do (mining/digging speed, armor rating, damage, etc...).

Also, when enchanting is implemented, only finished items will be capable of receiving enchants. This ensures that players are forced to work for their enchanted gear, and makes it a little less OP

Moreover, finished tools present an additional layer of challenge for not that great of a reward, and at the risk of losing all your progress on a tool and having to re-smelt it. As such, smithing finished gear will become the mark of a master, and carry high status and coinage value on servers. Smithing a plumed helm would become the ultimate sign of a true master, and they would presumable be worth a small fortune. Server admins (kings) would refuse to step onto the field of battle without their plumed helms to mark their rank.

so, interesting idea or just a shiny turd? Lets hear it

EDITED FOR CONTENT AND FORMAT

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Flux + leather = tanned leather

stick + tanned leather + gem = quality handle

The rest of it, I agree completely.

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One change, and thats the grinding wheel GUI. A button(called a petal) that you tap repeatedly. this raises a 'speed' meter. This meter has to be different speeds to work different metals. Too slow, nothing changes. too fast, your blade takes damage(ending in loss of the material). You place the desired tool on the whetstone and have a moving bar moving between a range with a range on it(placed at random). you have to hit the 'grind' button when the moving bar is within the random range. this range shrinks and moves, and you do it again(3 times at most?) Failing at this ends in a 'normal' item. getting a perfect one ends with what this thread details, a 'perfect' item

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Flux + leather = tanned leather

stick + tanned leather + gem = quality handle

The rest of it, I agree completely.

Hold up. We have oak. We have water. The method most commonly used to tan deer hides in the old days was to put oak chips in water and let sit for... quite a while. The oak has tannin in it which, well, tans the leather. So, the water becomes loaded with tannin, the hide is thrown in, and the whole thing soaks for a few days. Usually, you take the hide from a vat of low concentration to higher concentration over several stages, but for gameplay reasons that can be skipped.

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One change, and thats the grinding wheel GUI. A button(called a petal) that you tap repeatedly. this raises a 'speed' meter. This meter has to be different speeds to work different metals. Too slow, nothing changes. too fast, your blade takes damage(ending in loss of the material). You place the desired tool on the whetstone and have a moving bar moving between a range with a range on it(placed at random). you have to hit the 'grind' button when the moving bar is within the random range. this range shrinks and moves, and you do it again(3 times at most?) Failing at this ends in a 'normal' item. getting a perfect one ends with what this thread details, a 'perfect' item

Love the pedal button. Adding to OP

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I was trying to say that as it is a different task, it should have an ENTIRELY different minigame. Diversity is the game. Nothing like the anvil at all(no progress bar, just an annoying menigame designed to cause failure with low reflexes)

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I was trying to say that as it is a different task, it should have an ENTIRELY different minigame. Diversity is the game. Nothing like the anvil at all(no progress bar, just an annoying menigame designed to cause failure with low reflexes)

well yeah, but trying to translate that to actual consequences makes no sense - my way specifically denotes that going too far overgrinds and ruins it, but not going far enough leaves you with an incomplete tool. Your way is more abstract and is pretty much just for it's own sake. It's original, but it's not intuitive, which is what I'm looking for.

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... Too slow, nothing changes. too fast, your blade takes damage...

What about server lag?

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What about server lag?

what about it? its a fact of life, so just

Posted Image

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What about server lag?

Pretty much what noodles said.

If you really must roleplay it, pretend some noisy kids were running by outside your shop, or a bear roared, or something else distracting

If it really fucked things up for you (say, ruined your one and only red steel pick head that you don't have the resources to remake), then call shenanigans to the OP and appeal for a new one from creative in trade for the busted one

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I think what he was trying to say is that if the server lags, it would be a hell harder to know if you are going too slow or too fast, due to there being a delay between you pressing the petal button and the marker changing to show you the speed ._.

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What about server lag?

Hmmm, that sure is a doozy, you done thunk up there pardner. I have an inclination to think ya shud jus' stop pressing that there button if your gosh darn server starts gettin' a pinch slow.

you know, just a thought ;P

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Nice sig arch, quite tastefull :D.

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1.) it's true

2.) you used the word tallywacker, i just couldn't resist :D

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A few of my ideas, these could be tags used on swords after they have been worked.

Blunt

Increases knockback. Decreases damage. Chance to 'stun'. Requires Grindstone.

Sharp

Increases Damage. Chance to crit. Requires Grindstone.

Serrated

Damages armor quicker. Requires Grindstone

Curved

Acts as shears/scythe as well as weapon. Requires Grindstone

Long

Increases range. Decreases durability. Requires Grindstone

Wide

Slightly reduces damage. Increases durability. Less damage is taken whilst blocking. Requires Grindstone.

You could work a blade/sword to be any combination of these but the following cannot be combined,

Blunt and Sharp

Long and Wide

This is because these are sort of opposites. It will also make players weapons less overpowered and make them make multiple swords

I think this idea would be more varied and complex than just working them to make them better, since it will let the player make choices about the kind of sword they want instead of just giving them the option to improve it (which everyone would do)

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I like the idea of variations in combat, so it's not just everyone in steel+ armor with a finished sword. I know I'd be the local smith grinding out long serrated blades for the locals. Of course, being able to make a masterwork long serrated sword would be a nice way for me to show off my abilities as well. These weapon variations could be caused by working the ingot in specific ways while smithing the product; not defined, but something that the blacksmith has to actually learn how to do on top of getting the the two markers to line up. An example is that using draw on the weapon enough times without the use of the shrink command might yield the "long" classification.

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A few of my ideas, these could be tags used on swords after they have been worked.

Blunt

Increases knockback. Decreases damage. Chance to 'stun'. Requires Grindstone.

Sharp

Increases Damage. Chance to crit. Requires Grindstone.

Serrated

Damages armor quicker. Requires Grindstone

Curved

Acts as shears/scythe as well as weapon. Requires Grindstone

Long

Increases range. Decreases durability. Requires Grindstone

Wide

Slightly reduces damage. Increases durability. Less damage is taken whilst blocking. Requires Grindstone.

You could work a blade/sword to be any combination of these but the following cannot be combined,

Blunt and Sharp

Long and Wide

This is because these are sort of opposites. It will also make players weapons less overpowered and make them make multiple swords

I think this idea would be more varied and complex than just working them to make them better, since it will let the player make choices about the kind of sword they want instead of just giving them the option to improve it (which everyone would do)

Or, you know, not.

...Because that's kind of what enchantments are for.

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Fuck enchantments, they suck.

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Or, you know, not.

...Because that's kind of what enchantments are for.

Couldn't enchantments be saved for things of a more magical nature and this sort of thing be used to flesh out weaponcraft and finishing?

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Couldn't enchantments be saved for things of a more magical nature and this sort of thing be used to flesh out weaponcraft and finishing?

But then you have to up the number of effects that could be applied to an item to a rather silly amount. Imagine the tooltip for a Serrated sharp finished redsteel sword with knockback III and Bane of arthropods? It'd take up half your fucking hotbar. And unless I'm mistaken, items in MC only get like 2 bytes of data for them, which has to include ID, damage, and any metadata. So to implement an extra layer of metadata like this, you'd either have to re-write base classes to assign 3 bytes to an item, or you'd have to make separate items for each combination of traits and swords. I only doubled the number of tools and combat gear items, your suggestion would multiply it by 12 unless you went with the first option

A third option is to count these as enchantments in the metadata, but you can only have 3 on any item, and so having non-magical properties would then reduce the number of magical ones you can put on - and since magical ones are pretty much all better, that makes these extras useless anyway

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I'd be a liar to say I knew anything about coding, but couldn't weapons and armor be coded to be exceptions to the rule and to store 3 bytes rather than 2, or is it so intrinsically tied together that separation is impossible?

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I'd be a liar to say I knew anything about coding, but couldn't weapons and armor be coded to be exceptions to the rule and to store 3 bytes rather than 2, or is it so intrinsically tied together that separation is impossible?

It probably could, but that would still entail fucking with base classes which Bioxx doesn't want to do

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ARmour can be overhauled by removing all vanilla armours and redoing the classes as ArmourTFC.java for example.

One of the ideas I'm tossing around right now for grindwheel GUI (for a sword) is that you would have a sword which would be locked to your mouse and an animated spinning wheel. Y directional movement would affect the angle that the blade was applied to the grinding stone and the X movement would affect the lateral movement, ie what part of the blade you are working on currently. Clicking might push the blade to the wheel.

This format allows you to control the andgle of the edge on the blade, but also means that if you over sharpen a single section or sharpen certain sections more than others, you will mess up the blade, the edge won't be uniform or you may dull the edge or damage it.

Sharpening tools incorrectly leads to shitty weapons, but if you can manage to do it properly, you can get a sharper edge. Adding this feature may cause weapons to dull over time. Dull weapons could be sharpened, altough sharpening may sacrifice tool durability. It's a balance thing, you have to weigh the pros and cons, which I like, because it means that there is a deeper level to it, it isn't always a win-win or even a win-lose.

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ARmour can be overhauled by removing all vanilla armours and redoing the classes as ArmourTFC.java for example.

One of the ideas I'm tossing around right now for grindwheel GUI (for a sword) is that you would have a sword which would be locked to your mouse and an animated spinning wheel. Y directional movement would affect the angle that the blade was applied to the grinding stone and the X movement would affect the lateral movement, ie what part of the blade you are working on currently. Clicking might push the blade to the wheel.

This format allows you to control the andgle of the edge on the blade, but also means that if you over sharpen a single section or sharpen certain sections more than others, you will mess up the blade, the edge won't be uniform or you may dull the edge or damage it.

Sharpening tools incorrectly leads to shitty weapons, but if you can manage to do it properly, you can get a sharper edge. Adding this feature may cause weapons to dull over time. Dull weapons could be sharpened, altough sharpening may sacrifice tool durability. It's a balance thing, you have to weigh the pros and cons, which I like, because it means that there is a deeper level to it, it isn't always a win-win or even a win-lose.

First of all, that sounds awesome.

Second, if this is the way it ends up the way you describe it, it would make a great profession on SMP servers, if your sword got dull and you didn't have the skill needed to sharpen it, you would have to bring it to the local sharpener to get back in shape, and hopefully this sharpener would be as good as they claim :P

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One thing i think we can all agree is,

  • Awesome swords/armour should be hard to make/get
  • Very rarely should a player should have the exact same sword/armour as another
  • It should entail a fun mini-game of some sort
  • Could be improved multiple times without being OP
  • Players should feel rewarded by the process of improving weapons
  • Should have a new block for sword and armor working (like a grindstone)
  • Would take the player ages to perfect an awesome sword
  • Should be customizable, eg, belts for chestplates, plumes for helmets, gemstones for swords
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