Content: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Background: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Pattern: Blank Waves Notes Sharp Wood Rockface Leather Honey Vertical Triangles
Welcome to TerraFirmaCraft Forums

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

  • Announcements

    • Dries007

      ATTENTION Forum Database Breach   03/04/2019

      There has been a breach of our database. Please make sure you change your password (use a password manager, like Lastpass).
      If you used this password anywhere else, change that too! The passwords themselves are stored hashed, but may old accounts still had old, insecure (by today's standards) hashes from back when they where created. This means they can be "cracked" more easily. Other leaked information includes: email, IP, account name.
      I'm trying my best to find out more and keep everyone up to date. Discord (http://invite.gg/TerraFirmaCraft) is the best option for up to date news and questions. I'm sorry for this, but the damage has been done. All I can do is try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
    • Claycorp

      This forum is now READ ONLY!   01/20/2020

      As of this post and forever into the future this forum has been put into READ ONLY MODE. There will be no new posts! A replacement is coming SoonTM . If you wish to stay up-to-date on whats going on or post your content. Please use the Discord or Sub-Reddit until the new forums are running.

      Any questions or comments can be directed to Claycorp on either platform.
Neutromancer

Bloomery and charcoal...

56 posts in this topic

Hello.

First I want to say that I just started using this mod a few days ago and I've got hooked on it. The first time I tried it, the smithing process kinda turned me off, but when I played again months later it just made sense (except for that grindy few hours where you try to get enough nuggets to make an actual pick :P)

Anyway, I have a question: are there currently any plans to introduce an actual "smelter" or whatever it's name (kiln, furnace?) that doesn't have to eat huge quantities of charcoal? Right now we have a Bloomery, which is supposed to be use only to make sponge iron (iron with lots of carbon)... but in TFC the process sems to apply to every single ore. AFAIK, a RL Bloomery takes 1-1 ratio of ore (iron) and coal from the top, but the actual heating coal is fed thru the bottom. The top coal is an actual ingredient to make this iron (since pure iron is actually pretty crappy). In the Mod, all coal is fed from the top and the furnace just seems to eat whatever amount of coal it wants for fuel from the mixture.

Smelting copper or tin or whatever shouldn't need half a ton of carbon inserted into the furnace along with the ore, right? Am I wrong?

I just don't find it very believable that we're using all that "high carbon copper" or "high carbon tin", those things would be completely unusable.

Even if we can make ridiculous amount of charcoal so it's not really scarce or anything, but still.

Well, anyway, keep having fun y'all.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're using the iron/steel making methods for all metals, now, I wouldn't mind more realism but it really gets complicated if we throw too much in.

But, yeah, it's bothered me a tad as well. lol

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it would really be an overkill if you'd have to use a different melting process for each metal. For example: for native silver heating it up would be enough, even for silveroxide heating it up enough is working. Zinc can be made in a bloomery but you'd have to condensate the zinc vapor to get the metal and so on.... would take it a bit too far.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, some of them would be absolutely near impossible but we could at least remove the charcoal mix for most metals in the bloomery I think, or, screw it and just say tfc metals are different than real world ones with the same name, I guess that solves the problem pretty quick. lol

maybe with at least a nod towards realism have different metals consume charcoal differently, maybe tin needs 2 caseterite for each coal, while iron needs 1:1.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're using the iron/steel making methods for all metals, now, I wouldn't mind more realism but it really gets complicated if we throw too much in.

maybe with at least a nod towards realism have different metals consume charcoal differently, maybe tin needs 2 caseterite for each coal, while iron needs 1:1.

Posted Image

(This is a jab at this forum's mob mentality towards the word "realism", not a jab at renadi)

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just ignore the r word and take it for what is meant with it. ;)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just ignore the r word and take it for what is meant with it. ;)

Exactly. It is the context in which the word is used, not the use of the word itself.And it would be too hard to be fun to have a DIFFERENT smelting prcess for EVERY metal.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just ignore the r word and take it for what is meant with it. ;)

That's what I do. I just find it funny how often people are attacked over a simple little word.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, any way, I know that different metals need different stuffs (a lot need specifici minerals to separate, even copper) but in none of those cases you need a 1-1 ratio of material that becomes part of the final metal.

Anyway, I don't actually know if the end metal is the sum of the ore and the coal or simply the same as the ore itself (do we get the same metal from tin in the firepit than the bloomery? more? less?). If coal weight goes toward end tin, then it really just makes it a bit easier I guess, since we have infinite coal... we're in a way multiplying the ore. I don't mind that as a sort of (cheaty) bonus. But if it's the other way, we're just dumping a ton of coal for no reason.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Firstly, bienvenido al foro, Neutromancer :D no me esperaba encontrar a otro latino por acá (If anyone else wanna know, i'm just saying "welcome")

Well, taking a look at the responses, i can say thqat my opinion in this thread has already been said:

it would really be an overkill if you'd have to use a different melting process for each metal. For example: for native silver heating it up would be enough, even for silveroxide heating it up enough is working. Zinc can be made in a bloomery but you'd have to condensate the zinc vapor to get the metal and so on.... would take it a bit too far.

While the mod most of the times tries to be realistic in it's mechanics, the gameplay experience is always above realism. That means that, if something in real life is just too complicated to be entertaining to do in the game, then the mod will go to a more simplistic approach of this. Metallurgy is already pretty hard, so adding in different smelting process for every single metal would be, as Gorni said, an overkill. I'm sorry, but i can't support this.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But support what, exactly? I'm not advocating for perfect emulation of realistic process for each single ore. In fact it's the opposite: get rid of the massive coal requirement for anything except iron!

If anything, we shouldn't even be able to process zinc at this age... I think only one place in the world knew how to make "pure-ish" zinc, in India I believe, others merely stuffed the zinc ore along with other stuff and ended up with brass, never even knowing what zinc was.

What I'm saying is, well, couldn't most low-tier (tin, copper, silver, gold follow mostly a similar process, don't they?) have a generic, simple process that doesn't involve all that coal that is a process highly specific to iron smelting?

What we have currently, is like saying "well, metal X requires a weird process involving kittens and starfire and praying to the mantis god. other metals, you just kinda stuff them in a fire, then separating it somehow. obviously, what we have to do is have every metal follow the same process as metal X".

In this case, Metal X is iron. A metal so hard to make in the ancient times, that we have an entire age named after it: the Iron Age, which is when we finally figured out how to process iron ore, which is literally everywhere. Up to then, a lot of peoples used bronze or less, and bronze was INSANELY hard to get (as often the required ores weren't even common to one region) but a LOT more low-tech to make. And we extrapolate "well, all metals should be as hard to make as iron. that makes sense."

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyway, I don't want to make a big deal out of this. This is not a demand that the game changes, but a question of whether the current bloomery process is a placeholder for maybe a more generic process, or whether it's here to stay as a design decision, which I suppose I can respect.

Thanks for your responses everyone, y gracias TCG por tu cálida bienvenida B) .

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

while not necessarily a nod towards realism, i think kilns should be added, as a low end forge/bloomery combo, though possible limiting them to one use at a time.

they wouldnt be usable past the bronze age for smelting, but could be good for metal working though as they would of course heat slower than forges, but faster than fires giving a nice intermediate area.

plus it would give us an excuse to ask for pottery as well. i dont know about you but the idea of making fire pots out of gunpowder, and possibly alcohols among many others.

on another note, anyone willing to recommend a program that works with cgf files? want to experiment with year lengths a bit.

p.s. sorry for the sloppy post, its late and im lazy. :D

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am latin, but I do not speak spanish. We got a lot of latins here.

About the topic I agree with the OP, but tfc and minecraft is based in another premiss, it is how hard it is for you to find the ore and what is required for you to exploit the ore that defines the tier of that ore. So it is not really the smelting process, as you've said iron is rather common, and ifthis were implemented in tfc even with the current bloomery, iron age would be too easy... What made it hard to achieve is to find that coal with hematite would give iron, when they got the hang of it then almost every civilization had iron.

With that said I agree with having different methods of smelting and different process of making alloys

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am latin, but I do not speak spanish. We got a lot of latins here.

Ups, yeah, sorry. I meant "people who talk spanish", i just went derping and completely forgot about Brasil.

EDIT: and some other countries as well, for that matter... lol

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was bugging Bioxx for the longest time about Bloomery/kiln, as bloomeries are specifically for the chemical reaction between carbon and iron oxides that convert them into pure iron, while native metals could be melted down in little more than a forge. We discussed for hours and I think the conversation ended with an "eventually, but not any time soon".

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, well, that at least is good to hear.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was bugging Bioxx for the longest time about Bloomery/kiln, as bloomeries are specifically for the chemical reaction between carbon and iron oxides that convert them into pure iron, while native metals could be melted down in little more than a forge. We discussed for hours and I think the conversation ended with an "eventually, but not any time soon".

New plan.... clone Bioxx so that he can code faster... :D

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am totally onboard of the idea of more complicated production process. I find that "overkill" argument lacks consistency because there are already enough things that are very difficult and for some people nearly unbearable to accomplish. That just sorts out people who are not ready, who don't understand what the mod is about. I heard that for instance ore finding process is intended so that you may _never_ find some, including some bottleneck ones needed for production (like garnierite). And I take it that this means you don't have to find them to fulfill the purpose of the mod. I feel that this purpose lies entirely in the process of gameplay (which is not restricted to just creating mines, although it is MineCraft after all). For that purpose process is being enhanced to simulate crucial conditions of an actual real-life process. The only thing that should allow you to dumb it down is difficulty change, not actual change in the game. The whole entertainment lies in the process of getting what you want. Harder it is - more rewarding it should be. That means we can't just skip things. Why would we care about dehydration if gravity doesn't always work? That's why vanilla cheaty blocks are being phased out.I see no problem whatsoever it deeper more actual simulation of smelting and related processes. Detail adds believability. And since the game is not about let's say graphics, that approach should be used upon the main point of the game. Since this mod was started I thought that this is what should be done effectively. If you know YT guy named pakratt13 he not long ago (prior to his own discovery of TFC) made a video-rant about vanilla MineCraft losing it's purpose since all update, while being cool, are directed to just beautify, not to enhance the gameplay. He proposed 3 very fun ideas (which admittedly he himself believes never will be implemented by Mojang, I guess because, you know, casuals and interns everywhere). First he talked about actual real-life coal-mining as one of the hardest and most dangerous professions. And totally agree. How can you casually get ton of of coal by mining, knowing that in real life it's impossible. That would just inevitably make more distant from actuality, that would dumb you down as a person too. Thinking people don't simulate what that see on TV, right? So there is no such thing as overkill, unless dumbing down is the purpose of your game. Any game should teach something, like a good book. quality over quantity, you know. But back to the point. In regard of coal-mining pakratt13 told about cave-ins. And we know how great this idea is now, don't we? And I'll brand casual with no turning back anyone who would oppose cave-ins. Next, he talked about gas pockets and how easily those could be implemented. No more random running and throwing torches everywhere. Constant attention to just that condition would drastically increase the way you immerse (is that the right word? English is not my native language) in just minecraft and/or caving aspect of the gameplay. Think about it. Lastly - he talked about molten core and how your careless approach to it should punish you greatly (if you wish to know specifics - there's the video code on YT - 9G2ngH_LfAo). What I'm trying to say that there is no bound how much you can simulate real-life minecraft and relevant process while staying in limits of the game's engine. It won't make the game less enjoyable. Would it make you happy if you could with ease hoard countless food items. That's why I think even in current state that agriculture shouldn't be easier in any way, excepts bug technicalities. And for that matter food should totally go bad at some point. I'm not saying that you have to stop players from carrying around literally a ton of ore in their inventory (and that is exactly so since bloomery points that 20 pieces of medium-sized ore is 90kgs), but I won't have any problem with restrictions on how much you can actually carry and how much space you can have. That would just make every piece of anything you have more precious.

Anyway, sorry for the long post and for the fact it might a little bit more general than the specific topic.

9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

completely 100% off topic but I've lost the ability to like posts, sorry Jee_Host.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, If my way of saying things was too complicated, let's just say that I concur with author of this topic and in my previous essay I just told why.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

completely 100% off topic but I've lost the ability to like posts, sorry Jee_Host.

I can give him a like for you
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've learned more about natural science since joining this forum than I have from all other years since highschool combined, whether to reinforce a suggestion post or refute someone elses.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've learned more about natural science since joining this forum than I have from all other years since highschool combined, whether to reinforce a suggestion post or refute someone elses.

TFC forums

better at teaching than school!

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites