More Randomization by Seed (like the meals)

[madflavius 46]

When I first realized that the meal effects and recipes were randomized by seed, I was ecstatic. To me, this offers one of the biggest potential benefits for TFC, and it would be wonderful if it were utilized elsewhere. Let me explain with an all-too-familiar fable.

A player, Mike Noob, comes onto a vanilla server, brand new to the world of Minecraft. He asks in bewilderment, "How do I find diamonds?" Joe Veteran responds magnanimously, "Go onto the forums and look for the ___ mining method--it's the most efficient and easiest to use." "Thank you, kind sir," responds Mr. Noob jovially.

Five minutes later, Mike Noob excitedly broadcasts to the server, "Guys! I've already found twenty diamonds! This is so cool!" And with a single read of the forums, Mike Noob has vaulted over all those players who worked and slaved and theorized and created.

The existence of instantly-accessible information especially frustrates the purpose of TFC, more than vanilla, because TFC seems to be designed to inspire cooperation and trade, requiring expertise, meta-game skill, and hard work. Without the trial-and-error process of experimentation and the excitement of discovery, metallurgy and agriculture become a grind.

I believe that meals provide a solution. Because the recipes and effects of meals themselves are randomized by seed, each player must experiment to find the best solutions. This even provides additional benefits for multiplayer servers: players could start restaurants or food shops to offer the best recipes and meals for sale; experimenters could even sell recipe books in-game. The mayor of a town could draw in new citizens by buying recipe books and making a publicly-accessible library available for its populace.

Imagine this spread into other areas. I propose the following existing mechanics be modified to provide randomization by seed:

• Temperatures and burn length for logs. While believability requires that the woods not entirely change from seed to seed, there could be a range in which they modulate by seed. Therefore, the player who experimented with burn temperature and length, and saved that information, could profit by either using or selling it, because while the average player could still look up the rough range on the wiki, it would be different enough in each seed to give advantage to the player who took the time to find out.
• Working point, welding point, and melting point for ores. Much the same as the logs above, I don't think it is feasible to entirely randomize these temperatures. Rather, it could be a range within which the seed could be randomized, although this range could be far more important to discover--don't want to evaporate your ore, or melt it when you don't have a mold ready!
• Requirements for metalworking on the anvil. Each different tool from each different metal should have a randomized series of conditions required for finishing the tool--the conditions being the requirements for completion of the tool or weapon on the right side of the GUI. These could be entirely randomized by seed, unlike the two points above.
• Growing seasons for crops and fruit trees. Similar to (1) and (2) above, the seasons should be with a range, not complete randomization. The randomization by seed would affect planting, harvest, and the plant hardiness by climate and temperature.

I would love to see if anyone else thinks this is a viable idea, and if so, if any other aspects of the gameplay should be randomized by seed in the same way.

[yubyub96 68]

Woah! i love this suggestion, i think it will add great things to TFC on multiplayer, really good job on this one sir, i really liked thie introductory text, its funny XD

But i didnt understand the log part, randomize at the temperature they generate and how long they burn? if thats right i like it.

[madflavius 46]

But i didnt understand the log part, randomize at the temperature they generate and how long they burn? if thats right i like it.

So far as I am aware, logs both have a unique temperature that they burn at in firepits, as well as the length of time it takes a single log to burn up. I was suggesting those two stats could be made random by seed, but your suggestion also has merit, to slightly vary the temperature at which the trees grow in the first place. I would consider this again to be one like (1) or (2) where it couldn't be a truly and completely random number, as that would be silly (kapoks in the arctic, etc), but random within an allowable range.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

Woah! i love this suggestion, i think it will add great things to TFC on multiplayer, really good job on this one sir, i really liked thie introductory text, its funny XD

But i didnt understand the log part, randomize at the temperature they generate and how long they burn? if thats right i like it.

Every log has a temperature at which it burns (how hot the firepit will get when using those logs) and a time it will burn. I don't think they will go as far away as randomnizing where they spawn : i personally don't want Kapok growing along with Sequioa (i know, extreme example, but biologist will box you to death if you make some tree spawn where it couldn't, that's the point...)

As far as the OP goes, i just have one thing to argue here, and that's the third area. Those rules aren't there just 'cause Bioxx and Dunk said "You know what? i feel like forcing shovels to be made with a draw and two hits" (just an example, i haven't made a metal shovel in a while so i don't know the rules ). They are there 'cause that is how you would forge that tool head if you had to; that's the way you would achieve it. It's a bit like taking a cake recipe, randomly changing both the amounts and ingredients, following the new recipe and surprising when you don't get a perfect cake. There really isn't that much liberty in how to forge them... it's just how you do it.

The bright side is, it already uses a little per seed randomnization: the red thing placement for each tool head and metal is different, depending on your seed. (from what i know) It even 'caused some problems sometimes, due to recipes undoable (like, draw draw draw when the red thing is at the far right ..

[Wicc3R1 36]

I like this idea it would surely give replayability to SSP too not having everything beib´ng same again makes it intresting.

EDIT: what derp is this, im not even fixing this ;D beib´ng

[redundantusage 330]

The forging recipes are already technically randomized per seed as far as the initially required hits go, even if the ending is always the same. It means you can't just log onto a server or new game and instantly know how to make a bronze pickaxe.

[madflavius 46]

The forging recipes are already technically randomized per seed as far as the initially required hits go, even if the ending is always the same. It means you can't just log onto a server or new game and instantly know how to make a bronze pickaxe.

The bright side is, it already uses a little per seed randomnization: the red thing placement for each tool head and metal is different, depending on your seed. (from what i know) It even 'caused some problems sometimes, due to recipes undoable (like, draw draw draw when the red thing is at the far right ..

Hooray! I was wondering if that was part of what was going on--I've been avoiding any posts or wiki discussions of how the mechanics actually work, because I think it reduces the fun somewhat to know exactly how and why something works like it does.

Regarding trees and agriculture, I agree, I don't want things to be completely randomized at all. It'd be silly, honestly. But some range in where things spawn, a bit of a gray area at the temperature boundaries, would do a lot to give a good farmer who tries hard to figure out the best location to build an advantage.

[MadDoctor5813 4]

I like this idea. It would be like the real world world. People figure out how these things work, and sell their knowledge for money, or use their knowledge to manufacture sellable goods. That sounds very realist I mean believable, I said believable. Please don't hurt me.

EDIT: Real world world?

[Leosallespoli 338]

When I first realized that the meal effects and recipes were randomized by seed, I was ecstatic. To me, this offers one of the biggest potential benefits for TFC, and it would be wonderful if it were utilized elsewhere. Let me explain with an all-too-familiar fable.

A player, Mike Noob, comes onto a vanilla server, brand new to the world of Minecraft. He asks in bewilderment, "How do I find diamonds?" Joe Veteran responds magnanimously, "Go onto the forums and look for the ___ mining method--it's the most efficient and easiest to use." "Thank you, kind sir," responds Mr. Noob jovially.

Five minutes later, Mike Noob excitedly broadcasts to the server, "Guys! I've already found twenty diamonds! This is so cool!" And with a single read of the forums, Mike Noob has vaulted over all those players who worked and slaved and theorized and created.

The existence of instantly-accessible information especially frustrates the purpose of TFC, more than vanilla, because TFC seems to be designed to inspire cooperation and trade, requiring expertise, meta-game skill, and hard work. Without the trial-and-error process of experimentation and the excitement of discovery, metallurgy and agriculture become a grind.

I believe that meals provide a solution. Because the recipes and effects of meals themselves are randomized by seed, each player must experiment to find the best solutions. This even provides additional benefits for multiplayer servers: players could start restaurants or food shops to offer the best recipes and meals for sale; experimenters could even sell recipe books in-game. The mayor of a town could draw in new citizens by buying recipe books and making a publicly-accessible library available for its populace.

Imagine this spread into other areas. I propose the following existing mechanics be modified to provide randomization by seed:

• Temperatures and burn length for logs. While believability requires that the woods not entirely change from seed to seed, there could be a range in which they modulate by seed. Therefore, the player who experimented with burn temperature and length, and saved that information, could profit by either using or selling it, because while the average player could still look up the rough range on the wiki, it would be different enough in each seed to give advantage to the player who took the time to find out.
• Working point, welding point, and melting point for ores. Much the same as the logs above, I don't think it is feasible to entirely randomize these temperatures. Rather, it could be a range within which the seed could be randomized, although this range could be far more important to discover--don't want to evaporate your ore, or melt it when you don't have a mold ready!
• Requirements for metalworking on the anvil. Each different tool from each different metal should have a randomized series of conditions required for finishing the tool--the conditions being the requirements for completion of the tool or weapon on the right side of the GUI. These could be entirely randomized by seed, unlike the two points above.
• Growing seasons for crops and fruit trees. Similar to (1) and (2) above, the seasons should be with a range, not complete randomization. The randomization by seed would affect planting, harvest, and the plant hardiness by climate and temperature.

I would love to see if anyone else thinks this is a viable idea, and if so, if any other aspects of the gameplay should be randomized by seed in the same way.

With great randomization comes great confusion and noobs reporting 'errors'... It is good for those who like experimentation, but for the rest that for example depend on the wiki will be hell.

[madflavius 46]

With great randomization comes great confusion and noobs reporting 'errors'... It is good for those who like experimentation, but for the rest that for example depend on the wiki will be hell.

Two points:

• The wiki would be modified to state that certain things are randomized or partially randomized (like the entry for food explains now); people that report errors could be redirected to the wiki for clarification.
• Again, it's not "great" randomization, by and large--it is randomization within a potential range, which broadens the requirement for experimentation while not making the gameplay entirely unique by seed. In other words, it removes the unwanted wiki disadvantages (instant perfection in designs, no need for skill), while retaining the wiki advantages (information and tutorials for how to play the game for new players).

[bsb23 303]

Plant randomization only with genetics otherwise we get attacked by people for our randomness. Metals need to stay for a similar reason although I wouldn't mind a couple "random metals" which were completely different with each world of course that would mean they would have to not be entered in alloys or that we would have to also generate new random alloys as well. We probably would need more uses beyond tools if they were to be worth our time. This means we need each random metal to have its own set of properties which denotes what it can be made into and how. This means we would use the base metals as necessary pieces of the techtree and then additional unnecessary uses could be given to other metals. I'm sure there are plenty of things people will think of. Necessary properties include melting point, malleability/ductility, overall strength, hardness, color, spawning areas, spawning depth, spawning rarity and probably more. This also means that all items/blocks with metal will need a variable color scale in case a random item was used.

Summary: To work we need...

• Plant genetics
• Tree genetics
• Genetic randomizer
• Random metals
• Random alloys
• Alloy uses based on properties
• Color adjusting for metal items and wooden items

In other words this would take a lot of work.

[Leosallespoli 338]

1. There wouldn't be any clarifications there, would there? Just a "its random", so we probably would loose many potential users.

2. Even if it is a gaussian randomization, you're suggesting gameplay effects, so in one world things could be easier then in others, not only that but it affects the believability of the mod AND bug reports would take a serious damage in this because one would look at his crops not growing in 12 days while others had their first harvest in 12days....

[redundantusage 330]

I think randomness in everything might be a bit overkill. For things like growing trees and plants, small deviations in growth time or yield would likely be best. Anymore more than a 10-15% margin of change might end up being a bit rough.

[madflavius 46]

This entire post.

I don't think folks are understanding what I'm saying. Let me use an example.

According to the wiki, ash has an easy splitting difficulty, medium burn length, medium-high burn temperature, and medium growth speed.

Under my randomized scheme, it's not like ash could range all the way from easy to very hard in splitting difficulty. It would be a range. So rather than as above, what would be written on the wiki would be: "Ash has a very easy to medium splitting difficulty, short to medium long burn length, medium to high burn temperature, and medium to slow growth speed, depending on the server." Again, it's a range, not complete randomness--a limited range, at that. However, although limited, it would be enough to provide an incentive for people to experiment to try to find out exactly what the burn length is, and write it down in-game to sell or what have you.

2. Even if it is a gaussian randomization, you're suggesting gameplay effects, so in one world things could be easier then in others, not only that but it affects the believability of the mod AND bug reports would take a serious damage in this because one would look at his crops not growing in 12 days while others had their first harvest in 12days....

This is a definitely a consideration, and why I believe lesser randomization to be better than more--just enough to essentially ruin the day of those who exploit wikis to avoid effort in the game. Yes, it may end up being slightly easier (i.e., lower temperature) to melt copper than in another world, but at the same time it may require a higher temperature to melt tin, who knows?

With crops not growing, it would be solved by this:

Bug Reporter: "So my wheat isn't growing."

Forum Guy: "What is your z coordinate?"

Bug Reporter: "Ummm like -8000" (Just pulling a number out of the air, don't shoot me)

Forum Guy: "Well, wheat's growth range is between -8000 and -8500, and 8000 and 8500...try moving a couple of hundred meters until you're closer to 8500 and try again."

Tada! Bug report can be verified if he tries again at beyond 8500 and it doesn't work, but randomization provides a more interesting gameplay mechanic.

I think randomness in everything might be a bit overkill. For things like growing trees and plants, small deviations in growth time or yield would likely be best. Anymore more than a 10-15% margin of change might end up being a bit rough.

I agree, I think 10-15% margin of change is a good region to shoot for. As I've said repeatedly now, my vision of randomization only works within a range, not just across the board. Otherwise things could quickly become silly, or break important aspects of the game (for instance, you can't heat up steel hot enough to melt because the random number it required was too high).

[Leosallespoli 338]

So this is not about randomization, it is about variability, there is a great difference between the two.

Let me give you an example, if I want to buy a randomn number of oranges in the market, I could end up buying the whole market, now if I want to limit that I want to buy 5 +-1 orange, that is the variation of my purchase.

[bsb23 303]

This certainly is better however this is the mod that people come to for exacts and specifics. People may take offense to us messing with reality. Would it work, I guess so. Is it worth the fuss that people will put up simply to make our worlds slightly more varied. I personally don't think so. Not my decision but it is my opinion.

[1SDAN 38]

Luv this idea, it's new, it's fresh, EETZ JEZT LIK A BABEHS BOTTUHM!!!

p.s. I reached my max like quota for the day and that's why I didn't "like" it.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

EETZ JEZT LIK A BABEHS BOTTUHM!!!

You see? part of the randomnization is already applied. To some posts of our members, for example.

[Vlad 73]

Why not go even farther:

1) Each metal, log, food etc. gets all is properties by seed (melting point, burning time, etc.)

and also gets a texture by seed, color and shape.

2) same with rock layers, random colors and textures.

3) mobs generate their models and textures by seed.

So each new game is differ from the previous game even in the look.

[Leosallespoli 338]

Why not go even farther:

1) Each metal, log, food etc. gets all is properties by seed (melting point, burning time, etc.)

and also gets a texture by seed, color and shape.

2) same with rock layers, random colors and textures.

3) mobs generate their models and textures by seed.

So each new game is differ from the previous game even in the look.

You surely are joking... or are you high?

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

Why not go even farther:

1) Each metal, log, food etc. gets all is properties by seed (melting point, burning time, etc.)

and also gets a texture by seed, color and shape.

2) same with rock layers, random colors and textures.

3) mobs generate their models and textures by seed.

So each new game is differ from the previous game even in the look.

That's... ok, it's not impossible, i know. But it's a fucking ton of work for something counter-productive: you are breaking any kind of believability by placing the player in a completely unknown environment, with completely unknown propertys, ecosystems, dynamics, and such. This confuses players completely, they don't have any idea what they are supposed to do. That's already a problem now, when we have a guideline of how their world is; however, completely random worlds would make us unable to help them, as no one can know how it works except those who are playing in that world. That makes for a extremely frustating game.

"Randomnization" (in the sense intended by the OP) is fine when applied to small scales, NOT when everything around you is pure chaos.

[bsb23 303]

I honestly wouldn't mind a couple random things if normal things of the category still spawned.

Edit: Example, our metals still exist but new random metals also exist.

[puxapuak 232]

Four words:

Work to benefit ratio.

I also strongly agree with Leo's point about newbs being distressed. People don't read... there is evidence of this in the forums every day. People don't read previous posts, they don't read installation instructions, and they don't read wikis. Introducing something like this will clog these forums up so bad that we won't be able to discuss things of real importance and value. It might seem like a good idea, but in practise it will cause chaos.

[bsb23 303]

We would definitly need to reorganize the forums like I had posted earlier, I can't remember where though.

[warfighter67 124]

Why not go even farther:

1) Each metal, log, food etc. gets all is properties by seed (melting point, burning time, etc.)

and also gets a texture by seed, color and shape.

2) same with rock layers, random colors and textures.

3) mobs generate their models and textures by seed.

So each new game is differ from the previous game even in the look.

To add, I would like to suggest that all items get a random texture and name per seed. The textures are taken from anywhere in the items files and the names taken from the list of already-made names.

This would truly make each game different.