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weylin

Alloy Simulation (no 'fixed' alloys)

36 posts in this topic

Instead of having the current method of predefined alloy recipes, have an interface that allows one to combine several metals in varying amounts.

Ceramic trays could be placed into slots, each with a variable percentage (which must add up to 100%).

When you press the MIX button, a completely new and unnamed alloy will be created, dumped into a ceramic tray, and if you see results you like, possible to 'save' to a piece of paper to exactly repeat the alloy later on (and so that if you choose to mass produce it, all instances will stack properly with the same meta data)

The alloy created will have properties that are not necessarily those of the parent materials, and may produce something unexpected, but that would have some internal discoverable 'rules' governing why it did what it did. The map seed could work as a kind of modifier to make it possible for alloy discoveries to differ from one server to another, so that on a fresh new game, one player wont have a perfect one memorized.

Kind of like how meals work...

Anyway, this suggestion is to add more depth and realism to metallurgy, making it a possible puzzle of sorts to be learned and mastered, and not simply a list of predefined recipes.

Here's the depth that another game delved into:

I doubt that half of those would even be necessary for this idea though.

Posted Image

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Neither suggestion would work very well.

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I tossed it here so weylin will read it. I do believe there was nice explanation why this kind of approach wouldn't float. (I don't know if there is, because I didn't read it much.)

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That's really sad how everyone shot it down on silly things that don't even matter. "oh look, you accidentally made percentages add up to 110%, the entire suggestion is invalid" Who cares?

And then it got derailed pointlessly when so much more constructive discussion could be had.

Why does everyone bring up counter-arguments that if they thought for a moment could be dealt with by modifying the original idea?

Instead of saying the idea is bad, maybe contribute by providing alternatives.

Using the uselessness of a 50% Iron and 50% Gold Alloy as a counter-argument? Why?

You don't HAVE to do every combination possible, some alloys just wouldn't make sense, but on the other hand, some may, and could have unexpected non-magical effects, like an added resistance to wear and tear, or a better effeciency at a given task

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"oh look, you accidentally made percentages add up to 110%, the entire suggestion is invalid"

Wow, wow, wow, when the f+ck did anyone said that? i just made a joke out of something that ended up being a mistake.

Let me tell you something: When a developer comes to your thread and says it's out, the worst thing you can do is what you just did: keep defending your idea despite his decision. His word is final, just let it go, there is nothing else you can do now.

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You know, there's another game out there that did have an extensive alloy system that worked pretty much like this. It was called Beyond protocol, a MMO persistent RTS where different resource types mattered.

Posted Image

And from the post, it doesn't seem like the developer really thought of any alternatives, just "he said meals, he compared it to meals, nope, not happening. just because of the meals"

Maybe we should just make a mod for the mod that adds this? At least then it could be truly proven if the idea is as bad as some people are trying to make it.

It is possible that alloy items would have their stats based on metadata, so you would only need one of each tool, and the coloration and effect would be handled by the data.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it doesn't seem like the idea was given a fair chance, and the other post devolved into really unnecessary behavior.

Things like stats and balance are really something that would need to be ironed out by testing, so that shouldn't really be expected to be laid out by the user suggesting it.

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You know, there's another game out there that did have an extensive alloy system that worked pretty much like this. It was called Beyond protocol, a MMO persistent RTS where different resource types mattered.

Posted Image

And from the post, it doesn't seem like the developer really thought of any alternatives, just "he said meals, he compared it to meals, nope, not happening. just because of the meals"

Maybe we should just make a mod for the mod that adds this? At least then it could be truly proven if the idea is as bad as some people are trying to make it.

It is possible that alloy items would have their stats based on metadata, so you would only need one of each tool, and the coloration and effect would be handled by the data.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it doesn't seem like the idea was given a fair chance, and the other post devolved into really unnecessary behavior.

Things like stats and balance are really something that would need to be ironed out by testing, so that shouldn't really be expected to be laid out by the user suggesting it.

This game looks... brilliant, does it still exist??

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I thought the game died, but apparently it's back up. The one who made it probably had to shut down the servers to catch up with payments

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I still think this is a good idea, not sure why everybody hates it. Especially you JAG, I didn't think you could be so narrow minded :/

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While I like the concept behind the idea, I think Dunk may be right. TFC is good where it is in terms of metallurgy in my opinion. As I said, it's a nice idea, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing it somewhere else. :)

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You know, there's another game out there that did have an extensive alloy system that worked pretty much like this. It was called Beyond protocol, a MMO persistent RTS where different resource types mattered.

Posted Image

And from the post, it doesn't seem like the developer really thought of any alternatives, just "he said meals, he compared it to meals, nope, not happening. just because of the meals"

Maybe we should just make a mod for the mod that adds this? At least then it could be truly proven if the idea is as bad as some people are trying to make it.

It is possible that alloy items would have their stats based on metadata, so you would only need one of each tool, and the coloration and effect would be handled by the data.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it doesn't seem like the idea was given a fair chance, and the other post devolved into really unnecessary behavior.

Things like stats and balance are really something that would need to be ironed out by testing, so that shouldn't really be expected to be laid out by the user suggesting it.

haha.

If I was your dad I would beat your ass.

Do I have to explain everything to you?

Not having data hard coded into the tools makes everything that much slower. You'd have to be getting and calculating the damage, strength and durability constantly. We have no real reason to make alloys dynamic like this and it would just add to a level of confusion. What do we do with anvils? Do we add in a bunch of new ones? Do we have to make a shit ton of new sprites for each POSSIBLE alloy? You didn't really think this much beyond how it would feel on the user end, did you?

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I don't know, dunk, DO you need to make a separate item for each possible combo? I am not all that experienced with the minecraft capabilities, but I have over times gotten an idea for what works and what doesn't

I wasn't aware that having a default tool that is given base stats and a list of enchantment-like modifiers tacked on to it would cause that much lag.

Couldn't there be one of each thing, and something similar in structure to enchantments are applied to it?

What about colorizing a sprite by code? Aside from color, can you have many graphics for a single block/item ID?

As far as this idea goes, there would not be a completely different and random behavior between a 90:10 alloy and a 91:9 alloy. It would be slightly different, yes, but it would not be a difference that results in some super epic godlike tool.

I'm just wondering here...

Would this cause more lag than items which have a stack of enchantments?

If you have a 'default' item which is changed by varying levels of mining speeds and resistance to damage, I don't see why that would be an issue, I must be missing something, and I would appreciate if someone could clear that up for me.

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I don't know, dunk, DO you need to make a separate item for each possible combo? I am not all that experienced with the minecraft capabilities, but I have over times gotten an idea for what works and what doesn't

I wasn't aware that having a default tool that is given base stats and a list of enchantment-like modifiers tacked on to it would cause that much lag.

Couldn't there be one of each thing, and something similar in structure to enchantments are applied to it?

What about colorizing a sprite by code? Aside from color, can you have many graphics for a single block/item ID?

As far as this idea goes, there would not be a completely different and random behavior between a 90:10 alloy and a 91:9 alloy. It would be slightly different, yes, but it would not be a difference that results in some super epic godlike tool.

I'm just wondering here...

Would this cause more lag than items which have a stack of enchantments?

If you have a 'default' item which is changed by varying levels of mining speeds and resistance to damage, I don't see why that would be an issue, I must be missing something, and I would appreciate if someone could clear that up for me.

I never said you'd need separate items, in fact, that's sort of the point of what I said. It would just be bad overall, and that's just the way the game is coded.
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While I agree that, in concept, dynamic metals are VERY cool, they wouldn't really be feasible in-game. This sort of system would work well in meals, and maybe like... smoothie brewing.

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smoothie brewing.

sigh...

fuckin' joey.

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Joey, YOUR BACK :D where ever did you go?

Also Dunk, thanks for clarifying, I understand why this has been rejected now.

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Wait, having one type of item is the problem, or having too many items is the problem? :D

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Wait, having one type of item is the problem, or having too many items is the problem? :D

too many is bad, but putting too much into a single item is also bad. Look, it's just a bad idea. I could give you more reasons, but frankly I don't have the time to do that.
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'What do we do with anvils? Do we add in a bunch of new ones? Do we have to make a shit ton of new sprites for each POSSIBLE alloy? You didn't really think this much beyond how it would feel on the user end, did you?'

Hate to be on THIS side of the argument, but yes you do. This idea is great on principle, and while doing it exactly like it suggests(based purely on one set of metadata) is horrible, the idea as a whole its not all that hard to do. From what I understand, its as simple as copy, paste, minimal research(check wikipedias data tables), Edit basic values based on wiki info(durability and such), Sprite work via rudimentary colour alterations(gimp does this well), repeat till satisfied, tweak between versions as necessary.

Copy/paste=~15s

Research=~3m

Edit values=~5m

sprite=~15m(creating a greyscale template) ~2m(applying/tweaking colour filter+saving)

total=~10m*repetition (excluding template times)

If done in bulk, this time sheet here is DRASTICALLY reduced. Repetition also builds momentum. I know you two like thinking outside the box, but this approach I have listed here is very inside the box and simple. more work for you all? Hell fucking yeah. Profit from work? You know it. this might even be enough to push a little code up, retouch something that bothered you for a while but you nodded off saying 'eff it, aint worth it

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The thing is - the alloy's properties are not just combined of metals, nor at maximum of ingredients', nor average of them. Alloying iron and nickel can give you boost in durability, or worse durability than any of ingredients', or alloy will melt at temperature that is lower than iron/nickel melting point, or it will be very fragile because of crystalline phases interaction, or it will indeed will be your nickel steel. That's only for two metals alloying, three metals is harder to compute, and we talking about, say, up to ten metals in alloy, aren't we?

And the funny part is - in minecraft implementation you have no actual idea what alloy do you got, unless you dig the code. Or extensive field tests. Or if devs will add you some tool that will tell you alloy properties.

Edit:

Sure, making alloying of metals can create even another profession for someone to master. Probably. But don't you try to say it will be easy to code.

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I still think this is a good idea, not sure why everybody hates it. Especially you JAG, I didn't think you could be so narrow minded :/

I don't hate it, nor love it; i have never seen it applied anywhere, so i just don't know how that would be like : even though it sounds good. However, i know for sure that when Dunk says something is a bad idea, he has his reasons, other than "i don't like this guy's way to write >:-(".

I also know that, as transcegopher just pointed out, alloys (or for that matter, any composite containing metals)'s properties are extremely dependant in so many different things... for instance, the difference between iron and steel chemically speaking is a carbon's percentage between 0,05% and 1,70% (depending on the kind of steel you are making). Minimal percentages of impurities, minimal differences in the way it crystalliced, minimal differences in the temperature it was exposed to, in the composition of the air it is made in, in the amounts of each metal you are using... All that things can drastically change how your alloy will be regardless of the properties of the original metals, it's not just a matter of "tin and copper will make bronze".*Then, it's pretty hard to write a program capable of predicting the properties of X alloy.

*Damn, studying metallurgy was pretty useful for this post... ._.

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x] Alloys in the real world are honestly pretty boring, specific and... scientific.

I honestly don't want that so much, I'm ok with gamifying it a bit, alloys could behave different in TFC because it's not really earth Metals, make it more interesting... though honestly it's probably not really possible in Minecraft to be the way I'd want it, or at least would involve some very clever programming.

Also I'd got the impression JAG didn't mind the idea in theory...

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Also I'd got the impression JAG didn't mind the idea in theory...

What's that supposed to mean?

No, really. I have no idea ._. what you mean?

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alloy properties aren't always linearly related to the metal composition. It IS much harder than you think.

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