blueprints are way too op

[Biodigious 211]

If you don't like the over powered feature, don't use the over powered feature. Just don't ask to have it taken away from the moaners that threw tantrums to get it put in.

[bsb23 303]

Flint tools.

Stone pickaxe.

One row chests.

A stick for every tree.

Do i need to search deeper for things added and then removed? There has been quite a bit of features like those, and any feature has to be considered one of 'em when it has only recently been released. (Of course, the stone pickaxe was there for a quite long time before being removed from what i know, but that's not my point...)

The first two were replaced with something better not removed and chests were tweaked(I haven't played in a while so correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they're full size). The sticks were a good point though. But really with the way this mod has been headed lately I'm pretty sure Bioxx is in no mood to go back and forth because forum member, he is pretty solid in his opinions and I can only assume this is therefore his opinion and not a test like the sticks.

In other words unless its gamebreaking Bioxx has never been one to go back on something he decided I could be horribly wrong but it sure seems this way.

[redundantusage 330]

If they want to copy your work, they will, all they need to do is reproduce your concept once and make a copy of it on their own locked plan, and the entire thing becomes circumvented. Consider that if they want to be so uncreative as to use your own design then at least accept the compliment instead of complaining about someone else playing with your toys. As a side note, a surefire way to keep others from stealing your ideas is to play SSP.

[stringburka 72]

I'm in agreement with JAG on this. Copying with blueprints is a server rules thing, not a mod thing, just like pvp, stealing from chests, copying designs etc. While it's nice if TFC doesn't prevent plugins from doing this, or even has it as an option, I don't think it's different from stealing from chests and don't think it should be the standard.

[dockwithme 76]

I'm on the same page that there shouldn't be an in-game mechanism to stop this. My feeling is that it is already going to be heavily memory intensive to save the designs for all the blocks/blueprints made by all the people on the server, then you want to add in marking/locking each block that is produced.

I haven't played with this mechanic yet, but I read the change log. If all it takes to make blueprints is paper and ink, then maybe we do need this profession to get a little more expensive. It would be interesting to have an investment/resource sink to be able to make/copy/use blueprints. For those that don't need to use them, just go on and keep chiselling away like you normally would. But in order to use blueprints, you need something like a drafting table? Make it require a certain amount of resources that make it fairly intensive to make so that every Joe-Schmo on your server isn't making blueprints and copying people's work.

[fliffy101 12]

let's think about this, in real life can you look at the thinker, draw him on a peice of paper, and automagically be able to sculpt it? no! If they really want your work that bad, they can either buy it from your shop, or closely study the scupter and copy it by hand, at least then they'd be discouraged.

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

:| I fail to see how a sculptures shop would work... i mean, it's not like you can grab chiseled blocks and place them somewhere else. The only way to sell a sculpture is selling the blueprints for it + instructions on how to make it. And then, you can't say someone stole your design, 'cause you are the one who sold it to him in the first place, and therefore it's now his design (legally speaking).

[bsb23 303]

I haven't played with this mechanic yet, but I read the change log. If all it takes to make blueprints is paper and ink, then maybe we do need this profession to get a little more expensive. It would be interesting to have an investment/resource sink to be able to make/copy/use blueprints. For those that don't need to use them, just go on and keep chiselling away like you normally would. But in order to use blueprints, you need something like a drafting table? Make it require a certain amount of resources that make it fairly intensive to make so that every Joe-Schmo on your server isn't making blueprints and copying people's work.

How about requiring a tool? An expensive tool. A secret tool, using a secret plan like I have been suggesting for the last two pages! Dunk has already mentioned the secret plans found in deep crypts would this not be an excellent time to use it?

We aren't bukkit nor can we use bukkit, last time I checked se were a little lacking in the server control area. It isn't our thing we can balance this, there can be a balance between tedium and OP, TFC is an example of that so what changed?

[Biodigious 211]

A secret tool, using a secret plan like I have been suggesting for the last two pages!

If it's available to one person, it's available to everyone else.

[bsb23 303]

I disagree how many people that you know give away free red steel picks? To everyone? On a large server? They may exist but they aren't frequent. I see sharing in a tight group and sales with a very high price tag.

Its inevitable I see what you mean that it would be shared a little, perhaps it should require a certain expensive resource.

[Biodigious 211]

I disagree how many people that you know give away free red steel picks? To everyone? On a large server?

Who said anything about making tons of expensive tools and then giving them out? What about the "That's a nice [yet-to-be-added tool] you've got there. I'll eventually make one because the recipe is available to everyone." people?

'Available to everyone' and 'everyone will get' mean two different things, you are thinking the latter when I am saying the former.

[bsb23 303]

My point stands regardless only in tight knit groups would the lucky player even think about handing over his very rare plan and then chance of finding one for yourself, I highly doubt that Dunk and Bioxx would make these things common at all.

[halfmaster1 77]

I have a problem with it even in single player, being able to easily make, say, a very detailed roof. It should be harder. A lot of detailed blocks should be impressive, not normal.

[barkingnoise 19]

I have a problem with it even in single player, being able to easily make, say, a very detailed roof. It should be harder. A lot of detailed blocks should be impressive, not normal.

That I can agree with. However, I think the thinking behind it is that it should be able to be less work for the people who are more into creative builds, rather then the "believablity" aspect of the game.

[Waveshaper 33]

I have a problem with it even in single player, being able to easily make, say, a very detailed roof. It should be harder. A lot of detailed blocks should be impressive, not normal.

please excuse - but what's about: If you don't want it - don't use it!

If someone argues cause someone 'steal' his work - that's one thing, even if I don't see the real problem behind - but you have a problem with it ein SINGLEPLAYER? Are you serious? o.O Please think about what you said again... People - it's TFC - even if it tries to be realistic - it's only a game... o.O

[bsb23 303]

Its all game balance you could say the same thing if Bioxx decided to re-add wooden picks, or copy ee2 into our code simply don't use it won't fix the problem. What he is saying applies to multiplayer as well now suddenly making certain structures becomes a whole lot easier for those who use it.

[newcomer200 1]

Rather than a locking system or a signature system, maybe changing how blueprints are made should be altered. Rather than allowing blocks in the world to be copied, there should be a new crafting table (as suggested earlier in this thread) and a seperate GUI. This would make the blueprints be valuable while preventing chiseled blocks from having to be protected.

The problem with this, though, is it would need a different way of dealing with blueprint copying. One solution would be to just disable copying in general. Make it so you can only make a stack of blueprints at a time before you would need to go back to the table and make more.

[Menoch 335]

That I can agree with. However, I think the thinking behind it is that it should be able to be less work for the people who are more into creative builds, rather then the "believablity" aspect of the game.

Then maybe the blueprints should be available only in creative mode.

I try to keep to myself as much as i can, but i have ta say something...

I see the word believable used a few times in this thread, and there is nothing "believable" about a piece of paper and ink transforming a no frills area into an intricate piece. Just because you take a gravestone rubbing doesnt mean you can recreate that gravestone somewhere else even tho its already been created once.

A Van Gogh hanging on someone elses wall doesnt mean jack shit to me if it is a photocopy. Sure i understand they had to buy the ink and press the button on the printer, but so what? Blueprints take away from the creative juices and add a cup full of cop-out. I guess thats why i never play creative mode.

I do think the blueprint is genius however. It speeds up the creative process, but in a survival game, it is only my opinion that it just doesnt fit. There is a fine line between realism (I know... that word is taboo), and believability. In the realm of a "believable survival game", the blueprint in its current mechanic is neither.

Again only my heart felt opinion, but it should be kept in creative mode.

Rome wasnt built in a day.

[dockwithme 76]

--quote--

I was also under the impression that TFC was more 'hardcore' and it seems the blueprint mechanic IS for more a builder/sandbox/creative type of play. Just like some other people have pointed out, it's not believable to just 'copy' a block, then magically transform another into that shape. I hate to say it, but I'd have to agree that this is definitely a Creative Mode feature.

That being said, I keep thinking about all these ideas for the Drafting Table! Like Newcomer200 said, design a new table. Make it kind of expensive (this is the unbelievable part and hard to balance). Have the table take metal to construct? Maybe you need to take an ingot and make brackets out of it. Then use the brackets with a combination of wooden blocks and planks to make the table. The table opens a new GUI which needs you to PUT THE SOURCE BLOCK YOU ARE COPYING in it, along with a blank blueprint (or stack), as well some ink? a feather? and ooh, maybe also a special 'slide rule' tool you need to also create with metal.

Ok that got way out of hand...

[Menoch 335]

I was also under the impression that TFC was more 'hardcore' and it seems the blueprint mechanic IS for more a builder/sandbox/creative type of play. Just like some other people have pointed out, it's not believable to just 'copy' a block, then magically transform another into that shape. I hate to say it, but I'd have to agree that this is definitely a Creative Mode feature.

That being said, I keep thinking about all these ideas for the Drafting Table! Like Newcomer200 said, design a new table. Make it kind of expensive (this is the unbelievable part and hard to balance). Have the table take metal to construct? Maybe you need to take an ingot and make brackets out of it. Then use the brackets with a combination of wooden blocks and planks to make the table. The table opens a new GUI which needs you to PUT THE SOURCE BLOCK YOU ARE COPYING in it, along with a blank blueprint (or stack), as well some ink? a feather? and ooh, maybe also a special 'slide rule' tool you need to also create with metal.

Ok that got way out of hand...

Yes sir. I think that would alleviate the availability aspect of such a powerful building component. But bridging the gap from believable to (dare i say) hocus pocus in nature, is something i fear wont be so easily crossed.

Survival is about blood sweat and tears and i aint talkin motown jams.

Working hard for what you have has been the backbone of TFC imo. From every log felled to every ore smelted and shaped, to every seed planted and month passed til harvest.

The blueprint is more a Star Trek Replicator at the moment, really...

Again, this feature used in creative mode is simply genius. Bioxx is like Santa... full if surprises!

[Just_Another_Guy_:) 1,066]

a new GUI which needs you to PUT THE SOURCE BLOCK YOU ARE COPYING in it

Err... as you can't pick up chiseled blocks, how exactly would you do that? o.o

[Biodigious 211]

A Van Gogh hanging on someone elses wall doesnt mean jack shit to me if it is a photocopy. Sure i understand they had to buy the ink and press the button on the printer, but so what?

I'd forgotten until now to mention my 'Rename the blueprint to 3D printer.' idea.

[dockwithme 76]

Err... as you can't pick up chiseled blocks, how exactly would you do that? o.o

Dammit. Sounded good in my head. Also would stop people from just running around and copying people's blocks. Maybe you have to make the chiseled block INSIDE the drafting table! That would be the only way you could copy it. That would alleviate some of those problems!

[newcomer200 1]

Maybe you have to make the chiseled block INSIDE the drafting table! That would be the only way you could copy it.

By making it in the drafting table, it would force players to have to craft the specific block before they could have a blueprint of it. This wouldn't prevent players from copying designs, but it would at least make them have to go through the work of replicating the block by hand.

There would still be the problems of figuring out a GUI or interface though. Ideally, if it were handled like forges and bloomeries, you could place a block ontop of the drafting table, chisel it into how you want it, and then use the table to make blueprints of the chiseled block. However, this could still cause problems as people could steal designs by just placing the table under what they want to copy. Maybe using clay blocks exclusively for this process would alleviate that though.

[fliffy101 12]

guys, in real life if you do something, then you'll have a pretty good idea at the steps of doing it again right? but if you walk up and see something someone else did, it would be impossible to just be able to instantly know how to do what they did. people who make their blocks should be able to copy their work, and people who didnt can just either buy a blueprint, or figure it out by hand.