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Winterbrass

Villagers

72 posts in this topic

Hey. I've been looking at TFC for a few hours now (I found it through rediscovering FiniteLiquid). I particularly enjoyed Spumwack's video tutorials, and I find that TFC meshes very well with and/or duplicates the sort of things that I wanted to create as Forge mods.

Now onto the meat of what I wanted to ask: would the community like to see a mod where NPC villagers also do the same sorts of things as players, a la Kinniken's Millenaire, but specifically designed for TFC? Where they farm and mine and smelt and craft and produce goods which players can purchase by earning coin from the villages by selling to merchants what they or the village need? For example, in a metal-deficient area, a village they might repurpose themselves into a farming village and produce enough food and coal for themselves and enough to trade, but would still require imports which could be player-supplied, earning the player local coin to buy any excess processed materials or finished tools.

I understand that the creators are against NPCs, and I'm in the process of reading the entirety of the Kingdoms brainstorming thread. I wouldn't suggest this as a mod necessarily for their server, but other people might like it, so I figured I'd like to start a discussion on a mod/plugin that's dependent on TFC.

For the NPC-haters, I'd love to win you over, so if you have any questions about how I would handle various issues that could arise, please feel free to ask.

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I'm not against it, but neither i'm for it. I prefer to take the neutral point in this NPC things...

I do have something to say, though. You are talking about trying to make the plugin yourself? (it isn't that clear... :) In that case, if you are gonna take the time to make villagers work by themselves in all this things, you could as well take the time to make different villages interact with each other instead of them requiring player intervention in order to advance. And villages should grow in size as time goes on, as well.

Interactions between villages should also include negative interactions, aka, war and conquest. So, disreggarding your interaction with villages, these should organically grow by themselves in their own nations, which could end up being against you if you aren't careful in your actions.

(note: haven't ever tried millenaire, so i don't know how villages are in there. If what i said was pretty much like in that mod, i'm not aware of that :)

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I'm not against it, but neither i'm for it. I prefer to take the neutral point in this NPC things...

I do have something to say, though. You are talking about trying to make the plugin yourself? (it isn't that clear... :) In that case, if you are gonna take the time to make villagers work by themselves in all this things, you could as well take the time to make different villages interact with each other instead of them requiring player intervention in order to advance. And villages should grow in size as time goes on, as well.

Interactions between villages should also include negative interactions, aka, war and conquest. So, disreggarding your interaction with villages, these should organically grow by themselves in their own nations, which could end up being against you if you aren't careful in your actions.

(note: haven't ever tried millenaire, so i don't know how villages are in there. If what i said was pretty much like in that mod, i'm not aware of that :)

Yes, I was talking about making this mod on my own. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

Villagers would definitely work on their own, if they have the necessary materials. If not, they would take action to try to obtain more, dependent on what was lacking - they might mine, send out scouts or traders, or whatever was appropriate. If they couldn't succeed, and they knew about another village, they might leave and join that village instead, taking what of their belongings that they could carry, and having a go of it elsewhere.

As for interactions between villages... Well, they'd have to know about each other, first. Initially, they would know about no other villages, and would rely on themselves alone, until they had the spare population and enough food to support actually sending out scouts to discover other groups. First contact is always a bitch. Different groups would likely have different cultural traits, and were I to take that route, xenophobia would definitely be on the list, meaning that they would inherently be hostile to other villages and players. Certain other traits might clash, like 'cruel' and 'caring', and it might even end up that a caring civilisation might go to war with a cruel one to liberate its people, even if it cost a great number of NPC lives. Individuals would have access to the same set of traits, and their traits might change as they age, through interaction.

Villages would increase in size as need arose. A village with no mine would need no smithy, and a village with ten adults and five children wouldn't need more than a dozen buildings. Villagers would breed, and would likely die of old age as well. Players would have reputation, both with individual NPCs, as well as the village, and individual NPCs would have reputation with each other as well. The average NPC would be cautious around players or members of other cultures, but as they got used to seeing the player around, and through positive interaction (gifts that the NPC needs, or positive commerce), would come to like and trust the player, meaning that they would be more likely to support them for office if the culture supports that style of government (or supporting them for ruler, if their culture supports that style of government). There would also be 'meta-reputation', where an NPC would effectively act as a wifi-repeater for reputation. Get in good with a merchant, and if that merchant has a good reputation, when s/he talks you up to their fellow villagers, that'll make others like you.

Conversely, if a villager sees you trying to break into someone's home (I do like the idea of lockpicks), or stealing, or breaking blocks that weren't placed by you, or any other nonsense, then you'll earn negative reputation. If the person is the person you're stealing from, they might call the guards, who will take whatever steps they deem necessary, depending on culture, personal traits, et cetera. Maybe it'll be demanding reparations. Maybe it'll be demanding a bribe. Maybe it'll be no-questions-asked straight-up killing you. It will also naturally depend on your reputation in the town and with the guards in question.

Criminal actions wouldn't only be available to players, either. Piss off a villager enough and they might try to burn down your house. Of course, then the guards might get involved...

In any event, everything I've said naturally is subject to change and input, but that's how I'd LIKE to see it work.

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You're clear about that you plan on creating a mod that contains a lot of 'AI'-Features - more than any existing MC mod out there (afaik) - while also have to keep eye on the development of TFC to keep up to date with it for compatibility reasons?

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You're clear about that you plan on creating a mod that contains a lot of 'AI'-Features - more than any existing MC mod out there (afaik) - while also have to keep eye on the development of TFC to keep up to date with it for compatibility reasons?

I'm a Computer Science student earning 95+% in my classes. If I have time to get stinking drunk and wander around, I have time that I could be spending partially-drunk and pondering my code/programming.

Edit: Also, the AI work REALLY isn't that difficult. It's just a matter of building tools and personalities and letting the villagers 'think'. The most work is in just designing the mental tools and keeping the wide variety of potential NPC personalities in mind.

Edited by Winterbrass
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Great words... I'm curios to see what comes out... partially drunk or not :D

The Concept itself sounds good - don't get me wrong - but I've seen so many projects fail, cause the people overdo themselves.

Even some of my (best) Game concepts never came above the early alpha state cause my ideas conflicted with the ability of my coders. :D

But be sure - If you really start such a huge project, I'll probably one of these guys that always have something to suggest and also to criticize ;)

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Good. Criticism is always good; blind support gives me nothing to work with, even if I might dismiss certain categories of ideas as being foolish or worthless. I'm in the process of ordering parts to upgrade my computer to a top-of-the-line rig which will have component failures before it ever has an opportunity to become outdated, and once that's set up, I'll begin if enough interest is present. Input, feedback, and suggestions are my fuel. That and vodka.

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As soon I have the free space to look closer over your ideas and make some thoughts of it, I will be there with 'input'.

Khanskaya or Stolichnaya? ;)

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Interesting. In all honesty, sometimes, I wish NPCs to be implemented (not by the Developers, of course) so I wouldn't be bitten/shot/blown up in the arse by the vHostiles (I use Zombie Awareness), and to construct gigantic buildings either for an aesthetic purpose or a useful purpose. And sometimes, I would (sort of) be hostile to the idea of NPCs. I'm sort of an intricate user, quite frankly...

EDIT: I don't think I am an intricate user, just my mind being a little impaired, that's all...

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Yep, would be very interested to see this, how about building in some form of economy?

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As soon I have the free space to look closer over your ideas and make some thoughts of it, I will be there with 'input'.

Khanskaya or Stolichnaya? ;)

Stoli or Smirnoff's. I'm a Canadian. What can I say?

Yep, would be very interested to see this, how about building in some form of economy?

Economies wouldn't be intrinsic, and the coin of the realm might not even be coin. The value of a coin in one village might be utterly worthless in another, unless they trade or the coin is metal and can be smelted (or the 'coin' is a trade good, like wheat).

Interesting. In all honesty, sometimes, I wish NPCs to be implemented (not by the Developers, of course) so I wouldn't be bitten/shot/blown up in the arse (I use Zombie Awareness), and to construct gigantic buildings either for an aesthetic purpose or a useful purpose. And sometimes, I would be hostile to the idea of NPCs. I'm sort of an intricate user, quite frankly...

As a protip, I hate it when people try to be unique and speshul and decide that the default font and font size isn't good enough for them. And while I prefer buildings that are functional and beautiful, not all cultures would. If you find that a bunch of settlers are building ugly buildings near you, the best solution would be to kill them. Every last man, woman, and child. The bonus is that you get to tear their village apart and utilize their resources.
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Hmm...as a PROTIP? how is that a tip at all? If anything, that is egotistic. Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but that is how it comes across to me. I just don't get how it is a protip that you don't like something. And in all honestly, does it really even matter?

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Hmm...as a PROTIP? how is that a tip at all? If anything, that is egotistic. Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but that is how it comes across to me. I just don't get how it is a protip that you don't like something. And in all honestly, does it really even matter?

It's making the person in question (and all others) aware that I intensely dislike it and to not bother because instead of making it more noticeable, it makes me skim and/or disregard the post in its entirety, AKA failing the basic premise of communication. In any event, enough of this derail as it's a tangent about the rules for garnering a response from me (yes, arrogant, but it means that I don't get annoyed AND that I actually read their post, meaning that they didn't waste their time in attempting to communicate).

Any actual input about the concept of the addon?

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The reason I made that post was that it is just a font, and there is no need to skip over the idea of the post, mindlessly pushing it away because of the font. There is no good reason to disregard the post other than the font it's using. I just find it kind of arrogant.

But yeah, some input. Just don't edit any TFC code, and you should be good with the developers.

I do however, like that you are somewhat emulating the way Civilization uses city-states. How each village is independent at first, but has different traits to them, and eventually forms either good or bad relationships with the player(s) and other villages. I think there should be friendship levels with the villages. For example, the villages could be neutral with you at first, but uneasy, as you are a new person, and a possible threat to them. Trespassing in their village area without the adequate friendliness between you and the village would result in them becoming angry towards you. Also, you should be able to raid a village.

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I think there should be friendship levels with the villages. For example, the villages could be neutral with you at first, but uneasy, as you are a new person, and a possible threat to them. Trespassing in their village area without the adequate friendliness between you and the village would result in them becoming angry towards you. Also, you should be able to raid a village.

I completely agree on all points, but your relationship with the village would basically be an aggregate of the relationship you have with all of the inhabitants (or specific subsets of the inhabitants in different 'districts'). In an open, trusting, friendly village, you'd start with an effective bonus to your reputation, meaning that they might offer you what amounts to a favourable trade ratio in their shops when compared to the same village if they were stingy, cruel, and aggressive. On the other hand, in an older, more established city, you might be popular in the mercantile district but unpopular in the slums (or vice versa).

Raiding villages would work just like raiding your neighbours, if your neighbours never went offline, though villagers will still need to eat, sleep, and work.

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Yes. And the effects of low reputation wouldn't be directly be visible in terms of 10/100 reputation with this village. There would be however effects that you could see. Such as:

  • The value they want in return for trades goes up.
  • Guards are around you more often.
  • They are harsher with their trades.
  • The amount of things that you can do to anger them increases.
  • They get angered easily.
  • At the extremes, they will attempt to push other villages into disliking you (maybe I don't really like this one TOO much)
  • At the high extremes, they will declare war on you, and raid you.
just to name a few.

There of course, would be benefits to being friendly or even allies with them. Here are some other than the ones you said.

  • They will be looser with their trades.
  • They will be more forgiving.
  • They will occasionally give gifts to you.
  • If you are at the high end of allyship with you, gifts will be given on a regular basis.
  • When attacking a village,, they might help you in the battle.
And there would be certain ways to increase or decrease your reputation with a village.

Increase Reputation:

  • Making trades with them that they like.
  • Having mutual friendly villages.
  • Gifting them items.
  • Helping them in battles.
To name a few.

Decrease Reputation:

  • Trespass when neutral or bad reputation.
  • Demand items from them.
  • Raid them.
  • Steal from them/kill one of their members.
  • Attack a village they are friendly with.
Again, to name a few.

Another behaviour I think villages should have is the forming of "Pacts of Protection" so to speak. If 2 villages are allies or good friends with each other, they will most likely form a pact of protection. This pact says that if one of them is attacked, then the other will defend them. For example:

Let us have 3 villages in this equation. Ironclad City, Flame Town and Water Village.

Water Village and Flame Town are on good terms with each other, and they form a pact of protection. Ironclad City however, has taken a disliking to Flame Town, and attacks it. Since Flame Town is in a pact of protection with Water Village, Water Village is obligated to defend Flame Town and help it in the battle against Ironclad City.

So there another bunch of ideas.

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I was thinking more individual and emergent behaviour than that level of definition, really. If you please the masses of one village and get raised to the leader of that village, and you did it at the expense of another village, you might have those two villages at war, certainly. If you make one NPC absolutely ecstatic by constantly and consistently supplying her with the smithing materials she needs, she might mention you when she sends mail off to a cousin in a nearby settlement, causing secondary reputation gain. Less of the explicit and crappy crappy inter-village nonsense that we've seen from previous mods, and more villagers making decisions that makes the world richer.

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I'd love to see this be an added option to terra firma, especially when I can't have buddies play at the same time I do.

The only stipulation I have is the overall quality/ attention to detail. I don't mean to necessarily be nit-picky but millenaire skims over too many of the little details that just breaks the immersion for me

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I'd love to see this be an added option to terra firma, especially when I can't have buddies play at the same time I do.

The only stipulation I have is the overall quality/ attention to detail. I don't mean to necessarily be nit-picky but millenaire skims over too many of the little details that just breaks the immersion for me

Agreed. I also don't like Millenaire as much as I could because there is nothing resembling AI; villagers do what they do because the village demands it, rather than because they need it. I think causing villagers to have wants and needs independent of the village structure will be what makes the difference, especially when combined with the nature of TFC.
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But keep in mind guys. This will NOT be added to the mod. The only way this can work is if Winterbrass (or anyone) CREATES their OWN addon.

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As a protip, I hate it when people try to be unique and special and decide that the default font and font size isn't good enough for them. And while I prefer buildings that are functional and beautiful, not all cultures would. If you find that a bunch of settlers are building ugly buildings near you, the best solution would be to kill them. Every last man, woman, and child. The bonus is that you get to tear their village apart and utilize their resources.

Isn't the default font size 14? Also, no need to despise my font; if people want to be special and unique, leave them be, but try not to be snappy about it (even though I will obviously fail in convincing you that). I just like the font type, that's all... Also, I'm using this font for spacing paragraphs, not to be easily noticable.

If a group of settlers were constructing nastily-aesthetic buildings near I, the simple solution is to leave them, not to slaughter them like sheep.

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If a group of settlers were constructing nastily-aesthetic buildings near I, the simple solution is to leave them, not to slaughter them like sheep.

Well, it really depends on your choice, of course: kill 'em all like sheeps, become their leader, go to some other better looking area, do whatever you wish to. That is, if you can ;) 'cause most of the choices involve some challenge (even running away).

I think you should as well add some kind of mechanic so villages aren't just there from the start of the world. I mean, sure, make villagers themselves spawn randomly in the world. But there shouldn't be generated structures for them to live in: they start like you, no tools, no food, no nothing except for the resources around 'em. They will naturally look for each other, and villagers with similar traits will start to form groups. And if a group gets big enough, they will start to settle down in some place to live in: the start of their own village.

This will allow a number of things:

1-New villages will be able to appear constantly.

2-They will go through a technological evolution similar to yours.

3-It will be possible for you to find a group of villagers at any technologic level due to the first.

4-Villages will be able to grow from something different than migration or birth (a newcomer joins the village if he has similar traits to the members of it)

5-You avoid the problem of making it so a village generates using sorrounding resources instead of some generic resource (they will build their homes with what they have, so their villages will naturally be using sorrounding materails instead of some generic crap)

All this could help to make villages and their inhabitants feel more natural, they will help you to inmerse yourself in the world you are playing in. In the end, it helps giving the player a much more enjoyable experience, IMO ^_^

(And i was supposedly neutral xD)

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Well, it really depends on your choice, of course: kill 'em all like sheeps, become their leader, go to some other better looking area, do whatever you wish to. That is, if you can ;) 'cause most of the choices involve some challenge (even running away).

I think you should as well add some kind of mechanic so villages aren't just there from the start of the world. I mean, sure, make villagers themselves spawn randomly in the world. But there shouldn't be generated structures for them to live in: they start like you, no tools, no food, no nothing except for the resources around 'em. They will naturally look for each other, and villagers with similar traits will start to form groups. And if a group gets big enough, they will start to settle down in some place to live in: the start of their own village.

This will allow a number of things:

1-New villages will be able to appear constantly.

2-They will go through a technological evolution similar to yours.

3-It will be possible for you to find a group of villagers at any technologic level due to the first.

4-Villages will be able to grow from something different than migration or birth (a newcomer joins the village if he has similar traits to the members of it)

5-You avoid the problem of making it so a village generates using sorrounding resources instead of some generic resource (they will build their homes with what they have, so their villages will naturally be using sorrounding materails instead of some generic crap)

All this could help to make villages and their inhabitants feel more natural, they will help you to inmerse yourself in the world you are playing in. In the end, it helps giving the player a much more enjoyable experience, IMO ^_^

(And i was supposedly neutral xD)

Oh, good lord, yes. All of that, absolutely. I would want AI that had to smelt just like a player. They'd figure out the optimal patterns for taking care of common stuff faster, for sure.

But breeding and dying due to old age would also make the villages a lot more dynamic, too, and they would grow slower than they would if there was no death due to old age.

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Shh, don't let dunk hear you. No plugins until the game is out of beta. (do it anyway and link us to it, this seems like an awesome idea) You should definitely let the player join a village (or start one even) and have a profession, it would be nice. Getting them to build structures without a frame (no preset shape) would be amazing, as I kinda hate how every Millenere structure is exactly the same all over the world.

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Shh, don't let dunk hear you. No plugins until the game is out of beta. (do it anyway and link us to it, this seems like an awesome idea) You should definitely let the player join a village (or start one even) and have a profession, it would be nice. Getting them to build structures without a frame (no preset shape) would be amazing, as I kinda hate how every Millenere structure is exactly the same all over the world.

I'd probably approach it using rooms as building blocks and have them build what they need, having new buildings more tailored.
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