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Owl

Not my problem, but...

25 posts in this topic

"The prospecting pick's detection range is WAAAAY to fucking far for it to be useful

it also follows no discernible rules, so it's less prospecting and more "there might be something in this way maybe!"

It's fucking bullshit, really. Everyone on the TFC forums says to prospect the sides of mountains; I've never found a single vein of metal like that. The only (non-surface) metal I've ever found was by stumbling into a cave.

TFC's prospecting system is notoriously broken. Everyone I've ever spoken with on the subject who isn't a rabid fanboy of the mod has agreed with me on that.

I'd be fine with it if those who ARE rabid fanboys of the mod would stop defending it as if it's a useful, sensible system. Finding ore IRL isn't even this hard."

I have no idea how to help this guy.

I'm fine playing without the prospector pick, but apparently he isn't

If anyone could help me so I can help him, it would be nice.

This started from him asking if the ore generation would be "fixed" in tfc II by the way

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I'm not sure there's anything to be fixed, yes it's hard to get started but that's the point. The prospector's pick does the job it's supposed too and it's up to the individual to work out the best method to get the ore they want. Do I think there should be spawns of ore nearer the surface and above datum? Yes, but I wouldn't say the game was broken. How can he complain that the system is broken when vanilla doesn't have a prospecting system at all and other mods (Equivalent Exchange comes to mind) are way overpowered for what the devs are trying to achieve with TFC.

"You can please some of the people all of the time or all of the people some of the time, but this is the internet and there will always be moaners." As Abraham Lincoln said in his pod cast.

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Its designed to be difficult to use, its designed like this because this mod is for a believable experience with a higher learning curve, not a believable experience that's rather easy. Just tell him to try and try again and if he has trouble finding ores, marking down where he gets ore from rocks should help him.

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.... TFC's prospecting system is notoriously broken. .....

I can not, in any way, confirm that. The prospecting system works perfectly as designed, and i can not imagine mining without it.

....

If anyone could help me so I can help him, it would be nice.

This started from him asking if the ore generation would be "fixed" in tfc II by the way

Well, this is how i do it.

Start collecting ore nuggets from rocks and sluices(optional...i like the idea of using sluices so i use them) to make a chisel, prospector's pick and 2 or 3 pickaxes.

Then start digging down, in any way you prefer (i dig straight down with the danger of falling into a HUGE cave and killing myself), to a lvl of around 60, and start digging a 2x1 tunnel in one direction....any direction is ok.

Use the prospector's pick every 10-15 blocks to check if you get a read. When you get a read of the ore you are looking for, start branching all over the place until you find the vain.

Use the chisel to make brick-blocks, so you can make bridges if you dig your way into caves...some of them are HUGE.

That's about it :)

note: my tunnels are sometimes a few thousand blocks long

I see many disappointed people saying "I cant find ore anywhere...the system must be broken", but i would say, there is too much ore in TFC. I have one tunnel that goes through 4 huge ore vains, and that tunnel is not even the longest one i made.

All i have to say is, the prospector's pick is a very useful tool when you learn how to use it properly.

It's also very good for telling you if you mined the whole vain or not.

I hope this helps you to have more fun with the prospector's pick....a very cool tool :)

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My system of prospecting is a little too math-heavy to share on the forums without Dunk yelling at me for killing the immersion of the mod, but suffice it to say that if I get a read on an ore deposit with the pro-pick, I've found the related vein within 100-150 block breaks every time. The only exception is when there's 2 deposits close enough for their pro-pick reads to overlap, at which point I usually have to do a lot of extra digging to discern the direction each deposit is in.

The pro-pick design is actually beautifully done, though it takes a ton of work to get used to. As Mephistos said: it's a learning curve issue, not a development one. The pro-pick doesn't tell you exactly where to go. If you want to click a button and know where the ore is, kill the game's believability and use X-ray. This tells you more obscure clues, but they can read plain as day for one who knows what they're looking for.

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'Anyone who has a different opinion than me is a fanboy!'

Make my day... <_<

Finding ore IRL isn't even this hard

We talk again when you have your selfmade tin-pick and know about detecting traces of ore in sediment only with prehistoric 'chemistry'.
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Going on his responses I don't think this helped.

I suppose the only way would to be for him to file his complaints directly to the devs or come here himself.

I'll keep my argument with him private and go ahead and say the thread should probably be closed now.

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You can't close this thread, it hasn't been properly derailed yet.

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*ties mephistos to rails*

ONE DERAILED THREAD COMING UP!

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Owl, I use the propick fairly efficiently, and know what to look for before digging. its intuitive once you understand it, but a horrible device if you dont. I agree the propick(and for that matter, mining all together) should be changed significantly, but changing the propick because a member does not understand it is absurd. I am no fanboy of the system, but changing it on me now after me learning how it works... just no. big, no. Everything about this mod is geared towards skills the player learns, not skill the player character knows.

Edit: if you want to learn how to use it, ask me. I can show what I know.

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The stuff within the quotes is from a guy from another forum.

I ended up raging at him after he said that the devs had a "responsibility" to make it "playable" in a way he understood.

Still it would be nice to learn about the propick.

Wait, going to post the rest of the argument because why not.

tl;dr I got had

CG:

"It's not broken, I can find ore after making a few hundred starter metal picks and digging ludicrously long tunnels!"

This is not how IRL mining has ever worked at all (FUNFACT! I live in a mining town. I'm quite familiar with the subject!)

”How can he complain that the system is broken when vanilla doesn't have a prospecting system at all and other mods (Equivalent Exchange comes to mind) are way overpowered for what the devs are trying to achieve with TFC."

The base game doesn't have it, so it isn't broken!

EE exists, so we can do anything we want!

I'm very fucking aware that TFC is supposed to be minecraft hardcore mode. That's the initial reason I started playing it; minecraft is way too damn easy.

"its designed like this because this mod is for a believable experience with a higher learning curve, not a believable experience that's rather easy."

Really fucking hard =/= Believable. GTA IV's cars are not believable just because they handle like shopping carts full of cinderblocks on an ice road (though, with proper modding, they do become pretty realistic).

"We talk again when you have your selfmade tin-pick and know about detecting traces of ore in sediment only with prehistoric 'chemistry'."

Lol argumentative fallacy.

I've actually got a selfmade rock hammer around here somewhere. Granted, it was made from an old tire iron and some other odd bits.

Even with all that aside, there's also a certain responsibility to make the mod playable.

""It's not broken, I can find ore after making a few hundred starter metal picks and digging ludicrously long tunnels!"

This is not how IRL mining has ever worked at all (FUNFACT! I live in a mining town. I'm quite familiar with the subject!)"

What he said was not that it is realistic, what he said was that it worked, and since it worked, then it is not broken, at least not entirely.

In fact tell me how they found the location they started mining at, so I know how "wrong" the in game method is.

"We talk again when you have your selfmade tin-pick and know about detecting traces of ore in sediment only with prehistoric 'chemistry'."

Lol argumentative fallacy.

I've actually got a selfmade rock hammer around here somewhere. Granted, it was made from an old tire iron and some other odd bits.

The iron from said odds and bits had already been smelted out of the rock that they had originally been in.

What did you use when you made the scrap into a hammer.

Plus you didn't answer the part about finding minerals without any modern techniques.

Even with all that aside, there's also a certain responsibility to make the mod playable

You have valid opinions and points everywhere else, but THIS is what pisses me off.

No there isn't a responsibility, there is a desire to make the mod "playable" ( your definition seems to be "playable in a way I can understand") so people will play it, and since they already have a substantial amount of people playing it, there is no such desire.

And there's the possibly that they want to make the mod the way they want to, therefor they will not care about your opinions.

You just WANT there to be a responsibility so it comes out exactly how you want it to.

If TFC were exactly how I wanted it, it would be it's own game a-la Wyrm, with voxel-based terrain deformation and construction. I don't give a shit what direction Bioxx takes, I care that he builds his mod on a firm foundation.

There IS a responsibility for any good modder or game-maker to make their game playable, with the consequence being the production of a mechanically bad mod. A balance of gameplay and realism/believability (in this case) must be struck.

And it REALLY pisses me off how badly nerfed stone tools are. Picks should be able to be made of hard stone and mine through soft stone relatively easily. Chisels should be able to be made with stone. Making a huge chunk of the mod's content dependent on metal which you cannot reliably find by any reasonable system of rules is pretty fucked up.

Except that balance is not defined solely by your opinions.

There are several other people who think that TFC is good as it is, and among those people are the developers themselves.

And that's not a responsibility, that's a requirement for success, using the word responsibility implies that they themselves are beholden to do this, which they aren't.

And the "need" for success is undermined by the fact that it's not a actually game made for a profit, but a mod made because a person or a group of people were themselves dissatisfied with how the original game worked, and are making the mod for their own personal satisfaction.

Also you did not answer my questions posed to you in response to your other post.

And finally, have you put these opinions to the developers themselves, regardless of who's right, they are the ones who are making the mod to begin with.

The devs aren't always right, for one~

You're super mad and I'm sitting here cool as a cucumber. It's pretty funny.

TFC's ore/metal dispersion system is shit. The Prospecting system is shit.

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last i saw the propick was still quite useless indeed, just randomly dig down and eventually you'll get lucky, it's how all of my metal in every TFcraft world i've ever had was found.

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I wasn't asking to change the propick, I was asking how to use it.

The accusation that it was broken came from this other guy that trolled me on another forums.

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sorry about that comment then, but it is the truth, compared to randomly digging down, propicking comes out severely behind.

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I suppose so.

I just felt severely aggravated because of the way he talked, plus the "the mod developers have a responsibility to make the playable" bit seemed to imply that they were beholden to make the mod exactly how someone else wanted, even though the devs made the mod for their own satisfaction. They may take input from the mod's player base, but ultimately they don't have to.

I suppose I made this thread for support in the argument, not for problems with the mod, which isn't the purpose of this section of the forum.

Sorry for that.

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erm... own... may I suggest to you, to use the quote-function when you quote someone else? Even, if the quotation wasn't made here on the boards?

It took a while for me, to figuring out what you actually want to say - especially when english isn't someones native language!

It's rather hard to understand what's your opinion and what is something, another has said. ;)

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I find the propick rather useful. The best way that I have found to use it is to first find a reading. Then dig 4 shafts (2 minimum) extening out in strait lines at 90 degrees from one another. These shafts should be pretty long, 20+ blocks at least. Then use your propick to average out the readings to help you triangulate the ores position relative to your shafts. In the time I have been here I've seen alot of people complain about the propicks mechanics, but honestly, I think that most are either expecting to much, or dont understand how to triangulate. Its simply not designed to draw you a picture, its designed to give you some vague idea of where the ores are, or that they are even near you. As for early ores, you dont even need a propick. If you map out all the drops you get from stones on the surface for a given deposit, you can just sorta average out their distances and find the rough center of the drops, and dig a spiral stair strait down. This technique has rarely ever failed me when finding my first ores with my first pick. Without the propick while mining deeper, it would be almost entirely luck. So I would restrict use until your down deep in some mine, and scanning for ores.

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... 'nuff said.

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The propick was useless for me until I learned the maths and radius of the thing, then it became fairly useful.

That said, getting out of the stone age is only hard if you rolled a world that doesn't have an excess of starter metals, and the last few worlds I've played had plenty. Harvest the stones on the ground as you explore, once you find an area that provides either cassiterite or sphalerite from the stone drops, mark it. Clear the area of stones and you'll likely end up with all the stacks of small ore you need for a tool or two. Take said tool back to anywhere you found a cluster of three or more drops in about a 5-10 block radius and you'll have your spot to dig down. It's not rocket science, it's just time consuming.

TLDR: If you have a hard time getting metal tools you're likely either inexperienced or incompetent (though unlucky also sometimes happens).

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I have a different method of using prospector's picks than the rest of you, but I find I can use a tin-bronze prospector's pick for every 3-4 steel pickaxes I go through. Once you get the hang of how the pick works, it's a VERY ingenious method of finding ore. My server has boxes upon boxes of ore waiting to be smelted. We're actually having a hard time gathering enough wood to cook it all, but that's another story altogether. I can show you how I do it, but it'll be... interesting... to pick up lol.

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erm... own... may I suggest to you, to use the quote-function when you quote someone else? Even, if the quotation wasn't made here on the boards?

It took a while for me, to figuring out what you actually want to say - especially when english isn't someones native language!

It's rather hard to understand what's your opinion and what is something, another has said. ;)/>/>

It has been done.

Thanks for the link to the post treyflix, I'll try that next time I play.

Now that I look at it, it seems to that he just hopped to whatever part of the argument he felt he could prove, and jumped ship whilst attempting to unsettle me when he felt he could no longer sustain his end of the argument.

Oh well, at least I will learn what he refused to.

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if you're talking about me, i've proven multiple times now that randomly digging down is by far superior, so thanks for that misinformation.

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you know, honestly i've long though that the propick should be an easy thing to fix too, just add a second type call it prepick (short for precise pro-pick) craftable only with ingots, maybe even only with non starter metals as well if needed, 1 use per crafting, hell maybe it could even require double ingots, using it is supposed to be a huge gamble, much much shorter range, maybe 5-15 blocks long (forward if you prefer) by a 3x3 width size, you'd use it when the propick is giving you readings that you think you've nailed down to find out if you really had.

i mean, even something like that? would that be too much? i've suggested something kinda like that before but with a cheaper recipe and more uses, i kind of think something along these lines is inevitable for a broader audience to enjoy TFcraft in any case but i see that it has to be at a gigantic risk/cost if at all and besides that, think about this way, if you already know how to propick properly, you wouldn't even need one of these unless you decide to waste materials on one purely as a luxury of convenience and you'd somewhat have to know how to use the propick anyway to some extent just to not waste your 1 chance with the prepick.

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