Content: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Background: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Pattern: Blank Waves Notes Sharp Wood Rockface Leather Honey Vertical Triangles
Welcome to TerraFirmaCraft Forums

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

  • Announcements

    • Dries007

      ATTENTION Forum Database Breach   03/04/2019

      There has been a breach of our database. Please make sure you change your password (use a password manager, like Lastpass).
      If you used this password anywhere else, change that too! The passwords themselves are stored hashed, but may old accounts still had old, insecure (by today's standards) hashes from back when they where created. This means they can be "cracked" more easily. Other leaked information includes: email, IP, account name.
      I'm trying my best to find out more and keep everyone up to date. Discord (http://invite.gg/TerraFirmaCraft) is the best option for up to date news and questions. I'm sorry for this, but the damage has been done. All I can do is try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
    • Claycorp

      This forum is now READ ONLY!   01/20/2020

      As of this post and forever into the future this forum has been put into READ ONLY MODE. There will be no new posts! A replacement is coming SoonTM . If you wish to stay up-to-date on whats going on or post your content. Please use the Discord or Sub-Reddit until the new forums are running.

      Any questions or comments can be directed to Claycorp on either platform.
ToySoldierAlan

Information embargo? Why? Also, "Hard" does not equal good.

53 posts in this topic

So I'm relatively new to this mod, and as such I've been using the wiki a lot to try and figure stuff out. I'm not really a trial and error guy in games. One thing I come across pretty often is people saying something along the lines of "I hope this isn't too much information" or talking about how they're worried about telling too much and getting in trouble.

Um... why is this even an issue? I get that some people really like trial and error and figuring stuff out for themselves, but why should that stop those of us who want to just mess around in the sandbox from finding out exactly where to find iron (the minerals that smelt into it, I mean).

And then there's the extremely obtuse meals system. Does it really vary based on world seed? Shouldn't the filling values be based on what's put into it and not on random world-gen BS?

This seems like a lot of effort to make things "hard" when it really boils down to personal preference. If you don't want to learn this stuff, don't visit the wiki. Or there could be a spoiler part of the wiki were people who want to know stuff can go and ignorance happy people can ignore like the plague.

Basically, I want to know things without tearing the code apart to find it myself. Or really, learning HOW to do that, because I have no idea how to tear code apart.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, there are some things which vary by world seed: meals and smithing to name the two most obvious.

The "information embargo" as you call it exists because that's the way the devs want it, and we respect them and their wishes. The game is more enjoyable when folks aren't aware of, and thus aren't thinking about the specific math behind the mechanics. When specifics like that are revealed, things begin to lose their wonder, and it instead becomes a game of look up the formula, which is not so much fun.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I'm relatively new to this mod, and as such I've been using the wiki a lot to try and figure stuff out. I'm not really a trial and error guy in games. One thing I come across pretty often is people saying something along the lines of "I hope this isn't too much information" or talking about how they're worried about telling too much and getting in trouble.

Um... why is this even an issue? I get that some people really like trial and error and figuring stuff out for themselves, but why should that stop those of us who want to just mess around in the sandbox from finding out exactly where to find iron (the minerals that smelt into it, I mean).

And then there's the extremely obtuse meals system. Does it really vary based on world seed? Shouldn't the filling values be based on what's put into it and not on random world-gen BS?

This seems like a lot of effort to make things "hard" when it really boils down to personal preference. If you don't want to learn this stuff, don't visit the wiki. Or there could be a spoiler part of the wiki were people who want to know stuff can go and ignorance happy people can ignore like the plague.

Basically, I want to know things without tearing the code apart to find it myself. Or really, learning HOW to do that, because I have no idea how to tear code apart.

AFAIK a meal will always be at least as good as individual components. As for randomness - so, what you want is to go to the wiki and make a fuckton of, say, Speed III meals and farm only the things needed to make it, the only skill needed being basic literacy? I, for one, enjoy cooking in TFC because you need to experiment, do research, instead of merely copying ready-made formulas blindly.

Hard needs not equal good, but demanding skill to be efficent does. You can survive on inferior-quality meals, so it's not like you depend on Random Number God to decide if you are allowed to keep playing. If you want quality, you need to put some time into learning how to be good, instead of vanilla's 'Look it up on Wiki' attitude (which is fine for learning basic mechanics you need to know to play the game).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello new player of TFC, welcome to the mod and the forums.

Bioxx and I created this mod with the goal to make a game that was believable and fun, with challenging and engaging components. We wanted our players to have to work hard to accomplish tasks that vanilla makes trivial, and for them to feel like they achieved something great, and I think we've done that well.

Something that we noticed about vanilla is that it begins to become stale after a while. We can both look back and remember our first experiences with the game, when everything was new and fresh; exciting and entertaining. After a while, you figure everything out. You look up how much durability your tools have, how much damage you do and how much health the enemies have. You know where to find diamonds, and how often they spawn in a chunk. You know the tips and tricks of the game and how to beat it, and it all becomes monotonous, as if you're just going through the paces. There's no sense of adventure, of daring or excitement, and losing that made me a little sad.

What we tried to do was bring that back. We want more mystery, more excitement, more exploration and discovery. We don't release the damage ratings or tool efficiency of our tools and weapons; we don't release item durability; we randomize meal recipes in each seed so that you have to figure them out in each world; we don't tell you the math behind smithing, because we don't want TFC to turn into a game of numbers, we want it to be a game of action.

We can't force you to play a certain way, but this is how we designed the game to be played, and how we'd like you to play it. We feel it makes it more enjoyable by adding the extra challenge, and we hope you don't spoil it for others, and respect our wishes.

I guess if I had to make an analogy, it would be that TFC is like a magic trick: it's fun and exciting, and you may really want to know how it works, but once you find out, the magic is lost, and it won't ever come back.

14

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I get why you're doing what you're doing, and I can respect it.

On the other hand, to use your analogy against you, I (literally, in real life) work for a circus, and I work alongside magicians. I really enjoy learning how the tricks are done, and then watching them in action. Understanding how a thing is done (for me, at least) INCREASES my enjoyment of it.

When you talk about making TFC a game of action, that really goes counter to the experience I've been having once I hit bronze level. I'm trying to get to Iron level tech, because progressing is half the fun in this version of minecraft, but I've gotten so bored of mining for the stuff to make it and finding NOTHING that I've had to do random busy-work to entertain myself as the crops grow. I'm currently making the biggest possible charcoal pit, and that's going to take me maybe a month of in-game time, just to let the monotony of mining wear off.

All that is to say that as much as I enjoy the progression and the sense of accomplishment I get from doing things the hard way, I need to know HOW to actually do it.

In summary. I get why you're doing what you're doing, and I'm not going to fight it. I do wish that things were a little more transparent, but oh well. Thanks for making the mod, btw. It's got some really great ideas, just a few are bogging it down for me.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, the fun part is to know the general mechanic, how to use the pro pick in an efficient way, where to find ore, but as Dunk said, some of the some of the magic does not have to be known to better enjoy the game. What if you had access to a list of the strike order to get perfect tools with any kind of metal...it would make the game boring as you never have to think about what you do, but only have to hit the known formula.

If you have no fun as you do not find something, the best thing would be to ask people for tips. For example, if you want iron, it's nof surface ore, you need to dig deeper, check the kind of rock you are at the deeper level, the pro-pick at the average good level util you hit a reading on your pro pick.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, aliceingame, when it comes to metalworking, I pretty much have it down for bronze level tools, at least the few that I use. And after making 16 axes in a row all essentially perfect, I have to say that yes, it is boring. And mechanical. And repetitive. And it happened even though I wasn't given the list of perfect strikes to use. That's the problem with the obtuseness, it only makes the game harder the first time. After that, it's busywork. And if I'm going to be playing this game as long as it seems to want me to, a WHOLE LOT of it is going to end up with me knowing exactly what to do and in essentially the same position as if I had been handed it in the beginning. Which, for me, makes me want the info NOW, as opposed to mucking about.

And in regards to the finding iron advice, I've been doing that. For a while. I got bored after 3 IRL days of near constant mining. And, yes, I was using pretty much exactly the advice you suggested. I found enough copper and tin to never need to look for it ever again, but no iron, which is what I need to progress. So yeah, that part's a bit obtuse. I can only imagine what the other, rarer elements are going to be like to find. On the plus side, by the time I find this stuff, I'll be set on food for life because it's been 2 in game years and my fruit trees and crop rotation system are going to be hitting their stride by next fall. So the hunger bar is another part of the game that's going to be rendered essentially useless, thus defeating any original difficulty.

Here's my main point. The fun for me is not in the discovery, but in the execution. Withholding information from me does not create fun, it just delays it.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The next world you play in, those same strikes for the bronze axe won't work, as the location of the perfect spot changes with each seed. Nor will it be the same when you do find iron and start to make tools out of it.

You found making all those axes monotonous, but you find the fun to be in the execution? Uhm...

Look, you clearly want everything spoon-fed to you from a silver platter, and that's fine, but maybe this mod isn't for you. It's designed around the very need to explore and having to work hard for your accomplishments.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand what he is saying...

Ex: Smithing. It varies on world seed, but only world seed. It should vary on other factors as well, like temps, ore types, how accurately you hammered out an ingot, etc. This way, its not a matter of finding out the one hit pattern that always works on that world from that point forward. The skill should be knowing how to make a perfect tool in any situation, not just the one condition that works for that world.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gwtheyrn, I like how you can claim to know my exact motivations from a couple text posts.

First, the randomness of smithing needs to be more intense, like Blaster said, so that it's impossible to make it route. Otherwise it's just delaying the inevitable monotony.

Second, making multiple axes of the same type is very monotonus. Almost exactly as monotonous as vanilla, just more extended. That said, it's satisfying to execute. Also, you seem to think that my entire Minecraft experience consists of making axes. I find a lot of satisfaction in building, finding things, and progressing in tech level.

Third. What I want "Spoon Fed" to me is INFORMATION. Knowledge. If I truly wanted things just handed to me, I'd play in creative. I only play on survival, and never on peaceful. I enjoy exploring and working hard, I don't enjoy pointless randomness or things being needlessly difficult to find.

If you told me Iron was only located 20000 blocks away and that I had to make 14 types of picks to mine specific layers of rock to get to it, I would do it. Because I knew HOW and WHERE to look.

So yes. CLEARLY I want things handed to me and you know exactly what I'm thinking at all times.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, okay. Methinks everyone should calm down a bit. I both agree and disagree, from a science enthusiast's perspective, with some of the points made here, and although my own personal dreams for this mod have been proven to be a bit different than the overall consensus, I believe a lot of this is stemming from misinterpretation.

To me it seems ToySoldierAlan is simply stating that there are things that are not made known on the wiki which are pivotal to advancing in the game. However, he clearly still appreciates the unknown in tasks in which he has the information to complete, regardless of the difficulty or arduousness of the task. I appreciate that, and totally agree that the random tasks should be random within a world too (although it is still way more exiting than vanilla or any of those menial tech mods), however that is a suggestion, not a discussion topic. I would however like to know which information you feel you are starved of, ToySoldierAlan, as the wiki tells what stones an ore may spawn in, and it seems you are already armed with the knowledge that iron spawns in the second layer of stone. The only real way to do it is just dig down and take a peek.

On the topic of discovery, I personally want to see this mod at a point where you look at the wiki to see what is possible, and then Wikipedia to see how it's done. I know, it's far-fetched, but as with science, I love discovery, and currently, TFC's 'embargo' on hard numbers has provided that a great deal. Of course, I had to read the wiki to make stone tools, to find ore deposits, to make the next alloys - and honestly, if there were numbers there I would have read them and despised myself for doing so. It is still an adventure discovering the best methods for mining, smithing, discovering the ins and outs of farming, et cetera. Finding the iron with the knowledge you have is the adventure, the part of the sandbox building and mining game you all know and love that separates survival from creative. Now, I'm not saying you asked for this information, ToySoldierAlan.

On the topic of Entropy, I agree that it could use a bit of an upgrade, from simply seed based to including outside factors. However, I definitely do not want to see random recipes, for meals, smithing, or what have you. That would simply rid us of the discovery of method, which is just as important to the entertainment of this game, at least from my perspective. However, I could see the changing of the meal system such that the results, as in the results of smithing, are not completely random for each world, but personal player experience may lead to the intended result, but the getting there is different each time.

I'll end with this: Science gives us answers, and they are universal. The goal of the mod being verisimilitude - and fun every time you play it - randomness should be handled with extreme care. The mining process describes it nicely, as does the land generation and several other features of this mod. You don't know where it is, but you know how to find it. You don't know what it will be like, but you know how to go about it. You don't know what may occur, but you know how to prepare for the worst.

P.S.) I lied, it doesn't end yet :P. I hope I have not offended, or misinterpreted anyone in this post, and if I have, I am sorry. My views are extremely biased from a ridiculous simulationism ideology. Also, I recommend this topic be further discussed in a different post, in the suggestions forum, as I am now thoroughly intrigued. Have a wonderful (insert general time of reading). ;)

And as always, welcome to the forums.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My only qualm about cooking is that there are a massive number of combinations. I never know whether a red bell pepper will give me the same result of a green or yellow bell pepper, let alone different bread combinations. I'm gonna need to make a cook book...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks to Xechon for being a mediator. Very good points, and a pretty clear understanding of what I actually mean.

To clarify my problems with finding Iron. I know what type of rock it spawns in and I know the Y value to search at. That, however, does not narrow it down much because it's not a guarantee of iron spawning. So I can search through an entire chunk of rock and find nothing, wasting days of time because the spawning is too random. Either the pro pick needs a boost of usefulness (maybe a second mode that extends the range in exchange for a LOT of durability) or Iron needs to be a little more common.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something that we noticed about vanilla is that it begins to become stale after a while. We can both look back and remember our first experiences with the game, when everything was new and fresh; exciting and entertaining.

Oh i remember that one, back in Alpha. I managed to figure out how to make a crafting table and some sticks and then ran around trying to figure out how do I make campfires or any form of fire at all. I thought it should be campfire first, then stick wrapped in fiber/wool into the fire to light it up. I was wrong. Luckily, I was on a server, and they teached me survival.

Some time later I was teaching them redstone, but it's a whole another story. Actually, I behave like an old man, telling stories of "good ol' days". Funny.

Couple years later TFC came around, where it's almost exactly like I initially thought it is.

My only qualm about cooking is that there are a massive number of combinations. I never know whether a red bell pepper will give me the same result of a green or yellow bell pepper, let alone different bread combinations. I'm gonna need to make a cook book...

That's the point - I decided to make me a cook book from the very announcement of meal system, not even aware of randomness it has. Not only that - I started making smithing books as well, though I never finished, and probably never will, making one.

From the other side, meal's filling seem to somewhat depend on filling of its ingredients. So full meat meal can or cannot give you a buff, but it will always be a nice filling meal. I haven't researched if it's still a bit random though.

To clarify my problems with finding Iron. I know what type of rock it spawns in and I know the Y value to search at. That, however, does not narrow it down much because it's not a guarantee of iron spawning. So I can search through an entire chunk of rock and find nothing, wasting days of time because the spawning is too random. Either the pro pick needs a boost of usefulness (maybe a second mode that extends the range in exchange for a LOT of durability) or Iron needs to be a little more common.

Iron is actually the most common of all metals, between 3 of its ores in significant (in probability theory sense) number of chunks it takes up at least as many, if not more, blocks than iron in vanilla. FYI.

You know, there's a thing. Searching for ore in TFC is always a lot of mining. Easiest way to go about involves a little less mining, but a lot nonetheless, although it's a bit more dangerous and can result in sudden death.

"Finding iron is tough? Wait 'till you will look for nickel, har-har", - and all that.

There's a lot of people who will appreciate finding this way themselves. Myself once figured a way to find a surface deposit with point accuracy without a use of propick (I can just dig down and will end up standing on top of the ore block) - you have no idea how smart I felt, it didn't quite gone even after I've been told that it's a known method in some parts. In fact, discovery is better than sex (I know, most things are, but still). It doesn't quite work with iron, although "easiest way" has similar bits to it.

And yes, I understand my rant isn't what you're looking for. I apologise for that.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

sluices can actually give you a pretty accurate idea of whether there is an iron ore deposit in the area, if left long enough.

Another thing I would advise is playing on a server. Either find one in our forum section, or make your own with your friends. Working together, building and playing really increases the enjoyment most get from the game; it's possible to play TFC in SSP, but a lot of the mechanics are geared towards small to large groups

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, aliceingame, when it comes to metalworking, I pretty much have it down for bronze level tools, at least the few that I use. And after making 16 axes in a row all essentially perfect, I have to say that yes, it is boring. And mechanical. And repetitive. And it happened even though I wasn't given the list of perfect strikes to use. That's the problem with the obtuseness, it only makes the game harder the first time. After that, it's busywork. And if I'm going to be playing this game as long as it seems to want me to, a WHOLE LOT of it is going to end up with me knowing exactly what to do and in essentially the same position as if I had been handed it in the beginning. Which, for me, makes me want the info NOW, as opposed to mucking about.

And in regards to the finding iron advice, I've been doing that. For a while. I got bored after 3 IRL days of near constant mining. And, yes, I was using pretty much exactly the advice you suggested. I found enough copper and tin to never need to look for it ever again, but no iron, which is what I need to progress. So yeah, that part's a bit obtuse. I can only imagine what the other, rarer elements are going to be like to find. On the plus side, by the time I find this stuff, I'll be set on food for life because it's been 2 in game years and my fruit trees and crop rotation system are going to be hitting their stride by next fall. So the hunger bar is another part of the game that's going to be rendered essentially useless, thus defeating any original difficulty.

Here's my main point. The fun for me is not in the discovery, but in the execution. Withholding information from me does not create fun, it just delays it.

Ah, so instead of having to work to make metalworking monotonous, you want the information so it can be monotonous right from the start.

Got it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really, halfmaster1 ? That's not what he is saying at all, and I believe Wheaton's Law applies here on the forums too. He is just having troubles finding iron, and noticed some possible improvements on the randomization processes currently in place. Now, I disagree about the propick thing, and would like to point out that if iron is too much, you won't have fun finding nickel or gold. Mining in it's very nature is a trial and error process, and I don't think it would be fun if it were that easy. However, that doesn't give anyone an excuse for such a childish, ignorant response. Come on people.

Honestly, the best solution to your problem is as stated above; join a public server, or just try and be prepared to fail. If surface tunneling isn't your cup of tea, there is also the hallway method, where you dig down to the second layer hotspot and just dig until you hit the proper stone type, then branch off and prospect, and move on if all fails. Or maybe you would more appreciate caving, a less reliable and thorough method, but much more entertaining for some. I found my first hematite vein by prospecting the far reaches of the cave that was my home (turned out to be exposed above too, but I missed it :unsure:). You should get used to the ins and outs of TerraFirma mining soon enough, it a learned process, exactly as intended :D.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

INFORMATION like that isn't going to be just handed to you. You want it that badly, you work for it. Experiment and try to figure out the underlying mechanics and mathematics if they're that important to you. And if you do happen to figure it all out, please keep such things to yourself. The wiki provides us with enough information to get started and as a quick reference. Everything else, that's on you.

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

INFORMATION like that isn't going to be just handed to you. You want it that badly, you work for it. Experiment and try to figure out the underlying mechanics and mathematics if they're that important to you. And if you do happen to figure it all out, please keep such things to yourself. The wiki provides us with enough information to get started and as a quick reference. Everything else, that's on you.

couldn't have said it better myself.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So if information isn't going to be handed to me, why is there a wiki? Obviously information has to be handed out for some things, otherwise learning how knapping works would be an exercise in complete madness. The issue now is where to draw the line. There's information on the wiki about farming (what plants absorb what nutrients (and it's not entirely accurate, anyway)) there's information on when metals become workable and when they melt. Those who want information to be found by the players, why aren't you up in arms about that? I'm just LOOKING for the stuff.

My point is, this game is so dense with new information that handing it out is a necessity. Where it breaks down is when things are nigh impossible to find without devoting your life to the game, and in my case, even if I have. I've been playing this game non-stop for the last week. I'm using sluices (perhaps incorrectly) now, I've tried relocating across an ocean (found that advice somewhere in the forums) and In the last week I've gone through 3 in game years of time.

Clearly I'm doing something wrong. Respectfully, I'd like to know what.

I don't fucking know what to DO. I'm sitting here tearing my hear out and all I get from forum members is "You just want it handed to you. You should join a server so other people can do the work for you."

I want to do it myself, but I need to know HOW before I can.

I love this mod. I like almost everything about it, and the thinks I don't love I understand the logic behind. I just can't find the stuff I need to do the stuff I love. I either need advice or the stuff needs to be easier to find. I'd prefer the advice.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know why you've had such a hard time with this stuff. All the information that you NEED to know is on the wiki. All the information that you WANT to know but don't NEED to know, you have to figure out. Some things take skill (prospecting pick). Some things you can figure out by counting pixels (metal working). I recommend that you get on a public server and ask someone when you need help. It really is a team game.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So if information isn't going to be handed to me, why is there a wiki?

I think it would be cool if the wiki wasn't needed at all. That would require that everything be discoverable through some combination of exploration, reasoning and (not too much) luck. Unfortunately, that would be a ton of work, so instead we end up with a large set of things which are difficult-to-impossible to discover for yourself (e.g. that you need plans in order to smith metal tools) and which must therefore be documented in the wiki.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing that REALLY bugs me is that people say that I shouldn't expect to be given information. They then, in the same post, suggest I go ask people to tell me what to do.

I guess I'll ask a question. Who can legitimately say that they figured out how to find iron completely by themselves, no tutorial, no servers of people who already know what they're doing telling you how, just straight self taught searching and mining. If you haven't done that, you have no right to tell me not to ask for more information, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU DID.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a big difference between privately asking for tips and coming on the forums to demand information about the workings under the hood.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites