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PaoloEmilio

Ingame money

77 posts in this topic

Barter, and backed currency - you forget the idea of a fiat currency completely.

I am quite sure it was regarded, even in my post just before yours, with the example of ores, coal and whatnot. Tsk tsk, please read the thread first before answering?
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I am quite sure it was regarded, even in my post just before yours, with the example of ores, coal and whatnot. Tsk tsk, please read the thread first before answering?

 

I'd started posting earlier that afternoon, then was called awayYour post had not existed when I first started writing

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There was some talk about metal coins and such right? Well myself have a problem when melting ores into ingots the often occure due to poor or rich ores in the mix, if we could divide an ingot into 20 they'd be great for 'coins' and to balance alloys so you don't end up with 1,05 ingot or something like that (Crushing ores into 5mU pieces would also help as chopping up whole ingots might not always be the best solution)

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So... if coins take say, 5 units of metal, you can use it to make alloys and such easily by melting coins rather than ores and ingots.

 

Why not just have metal nuggets then?

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So... if coins take say, 5 units of metal, you can use it to make alloys and such easily by melting coins rather than ores and ingots.

 

Why not just have metal nuggets then?

Because coins are shiny.

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This whole thread is silly, because you people are only talking for the most part about 2 forms of trade

Barter, and backed currency - you forget the idea of a fiat currency completely.

^ This.

 

I think rather than coins made from metal, we should go with paper money or something thereabouts.  A material that has no inherent worth and can be made rare, through serial numbers, or as mentioned earlier, a stamp with a unique name.  When gems were first added to TFC, i was mayor of a town on a non white-listed server that had many people coming and going.  I was tasked with creating a fiat currency system using gems and it worked out alright... at least until someone who had been sluicing for gems for days came in and destabilized the economy :P.  I think that if we had a complicated and / or expensive way to produce a fiat currency that could be regulated and controlled, it would serve to be a boon for multiplayer servers.  

The reason I would like to see this is because not everyone likes to do the same things in TFC.  For instance, I hate mining, and trying to find ores, or even working them on the anvil.  I very much dislike it.  Rather than doing that, I enjoy making town infrastructure, taking care of the agriculture and livestock, etc.  When I need a tool made, I call on a townie of mine whose only joy in TFC is metallurgy and making rum ;).  It would be a great boon if I had a stable currency to trade to him in exchange for his tools, which would then be circulated around as he purchases ores from the other players and towns, so on so forth.  Ultimately the currency would serve three purposes,

  • Allow the trade of items between players who might not have something the other wants, which in the case of "specialist" players, is a difficult hurdle,
  • Give a tangible feeling of worth for said "specialized" players, as they can see how well they are doing and how their services are appreciated by how fat their coin purse is,
  • Encourages specialized professions through a time vs reward metric, where they can figure out what makes them more currency in the long run, being a jack-of-all-trades or actually improving your skills with agriculture, metallurgy, etc.

 

I can understand the people who aren't interested in currency, saying its a waste of time to code, but it all depends on what interests you in TFC.  If you like to do everything in the game without any help from others or you have goods that others want for which to trade for goods you want, then it would be not much use to you.  However, if your server hosts a diverse group of players who dislike certain aspects of TFC and do their best to avoid it, then this will be useful for you.

 

As for the fiat currency itself, it should be an item with no inherent worth, something that is rare or production of it could be controlled as a unique substance.  That said, I would highly discourage the use of metals, whether they be tool metals or non-tool metals, due to what people have pointed out in this thread, people will most likely melt it back into an ingot for other uses.  

 

Anywho, thats my 2cp on that :)

Choc

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This whole thread is silly, because you people are only talking for the most part about 2 forms of trade

Barter, and backed currency - you forget the idea of a fiat currency completely.

 

Fiat means "decree".  To get a fiat money system started you have to rule over someone first, so that they care about following your decrees.  So for example, you and a group of friends could conquer and subjugate a SMP server by force, make all the players swear fealty to you, then issue a decree that everyone must accept your exquisite amethysts as payment for their valuable goods like food and metal.  That would be a fiat currency, if you could enforce it.

 

For a different example: suppose we are on an SMP server, and that you enjoy collecting gems and are willing to voluntarily give me your real goods for them.  Of course I'll start saving gems and trading them to you (if you have things to trade that I want), but this is not gems being used as currency; this is barter.  I value real goods like ingots and food that are useful in the game, and you value collections of shiny worthless rocks, and we are bartering.  The proof that this is actually barter is that if you offer me a chest full of gems for a set of steel plate I will laugh at you.

 

Now suppose that you invite many friends to the SMP server who also love to collect shinies more than collecting anything else in game, so that the number of "shiny collectors" outnumbers the people who care about having other things like steel and cheese.  Once your group hits a critical mass, people from outside your shinies-collecting group might start accepting gems from each other as payment for things, based on knowing that you and your group of friends will reliably trade real goods for these gems.  If this happens, the shinies will be functioning as an actual money (not a fiat money though).  However, as soon as you and your friends stop making valuable things and using them to buy gems, this gem money system will collapse.

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I'm fairly certain the people who are intelligent enough to understand the basic economics at play in these hypothetical situations are also smart enough to realize that there is absolutely no need for a currency in the mod at this time.

Therefore, I don't really see much point in continually attempting to educate the people who post here demanding a money item without the smarts to read the plethora of existing posts explaining why it's not useful.

 

Not aiming this at any post or person in particular, it's just my general feeling towards this thread.

 

If anyone who reads this is about to post  "Add gold coins please! I would love gold coins for SMP!" Please check this out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

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Currencies in a game such as Minecraft are functionally equivalent to aesthetic additions to the game

 

They aren't needed anymore than you need to build houses, castles, doors, or any other aesthetic addition to the game. Those aren't neccesary at all. People just want them

 

Look at MadeofMeat's post above. Everything about was about immersion into a world. If people want to simulate kingdoms with currencies, why would they be uneducated just because it is a unnecesary thing to do? Lets face it playing Minecraft is a unneccesary thing to do, so should it not exist?

 

If there is any part about asking for a currency addition to the mod that goes against common sense, it is because other people have made currency mods that are probably compatible with TFC

 

In less than 1 minute, I found 3, including one that is open source and would probably allow a TFC compatibility patch to be released to make the recipes seem like they would better fit in the world of TFC

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In real life money value is not the same everywhere or for everybody.

100 dollars is a lot more valuable for me than for bill gates.

And I can buy more staff with it since I dont believe he shops on the same kind of stores that i go.

You can buy a 12 pack beer for 15 dollars on the 7Eleven or a cup in a band concert.  

I don't think TFC needs an economy. But I agree with Palisight, in a game what is needed is what people want.

There are a lot of currency mods out there but I have not liked how they work on some servers.

The way I see a true economy is based on actual value ( translate as how hard or rare something is).

The system would need to self regulate giving value depending on scarcity. 

So suppose you have a central market on the server where you can go and sell all the stones you have.

The problem is that the market would calculate the value of stone depending on how much stone it has in stock.

So the first 64 batch would sell for 10 copper coin each (for example ), The second would sell for less and so on to the point that the market would just refuse to buy.

The same works on the inverse if the market has no stock of a certain item and knows it would sell it fast it can give a real high value.

In conclusion You need to have either an actual moderator or AI to constantly monitor and control the prices for every single item.

Coins should not be meltable, The only reason for me to trade something of value for coins should be because I Know I can use those coins to buy something else not to melt the coins.

On the same line no one should be able to make coins. Only the server admin or the economy AI would determine if the server needs more coins. 

Usually if I need something from someone I can find something that they need. And barter with coins or with charcoal works the same for me.

I just enjoy the existing system more than on certain server where you can actually sell dirt and just buy everything else.

(I know some people will buy dirt for construction projects, but not that much).

For now I am against the inclusion of economy in the form of coins in TFC.

What I seen on servers is the admins and their friends having huge amounts of money. If I see a system that really works I could change my mind.

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Functioning systems of currency exist because people beleive they have value. Creating a functioning currency requires convincing other people to accept it has value. This is a social issue, not a technical one.

 

The mod makers job is to give you the tools to make currency in your game. Mod makers have done that already

 

Nonsensical currency choices and kleptocracies are both the historical and modern standards for how economies work.

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Nonsensical currency choices and kleptocracies are both the historical and modern standards for how economies work.

When I think about you are right, hence the government and its friends having all the money. 

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...Therefore, I don't really see much point in continually attempting to educate...

 

Because if we do not, then all D&B will hear is the constant outcry for these frivolous things, while those who understand that they aren't needed just sit back and assume that the devs will simply let what they perceive as the wishes of the community go unanswered. Plenty of mods added stupid shit because the players bleated loudly enough about them.

The vote has to be contested, because so long as there is a divided audience, it leaves the devs free to listen to their good sense and creativity, knowing that someone will be happy with it either way. If we fail to stand against bad ideas, they'll be the sole voice of the community.

 

I don't want that.

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D&B are smart enough not to add something because of the first post in a thread that's been discussed to death many times before by the disillusioned and the impractical. If this was a NEW terrible idea then please, educate away. 

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IMO all that is needed is a multiblock coin making press, where only the server owner, or admin, has the right to use it. (or anyone that gets that role)

Coins can be exchanged for copper, silver or gold ingots which are then used to make more coins.

These coins are a normal item in your inventory that can be lost just like IRL.

There is no need to control anything else, because once the coins get out there, everything will fall into place and just, work :)

One more thing that would fit into all this, is an item exchange GUI.

 

We tend to over complicate stuff, but very often, the most simple things work best.

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A few things.

 

If only the server owner/admin/whoever can make coins, what's the point? It might as well be a vanilla diamond gotten via creative by the server owner in that case.

 

Also, by exchanging coins for copper, silver, or gold ingots, I'm guessing you mean copper makes X amount of coins, silver makes Y amount, and gold makes Z amount, and X amount of coins can be turned into copper, and so on. That would mean that if you have enough of one ingot, you can change it to any of the other ingots you want simply by owning a printing press. That seems kinda... off....

 

And just because the coins are out there, doesn't mean that everything will 'fall into place'. I mean, minecraft has a currency that is hard to get, and can be used for trading with npc's, the emerald. Have you ever seen people on minecraft servers trading with emeralds?

 

Most likely people will just ignore the coins and trade in raw goods to save themselves the hassle of making and/or trading the server owner/admin/whoever for coins.

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currency is only something that can be done if someone with power enforced it, for example a faction founds a town where anyone could settle in then you'd have to make sure that you get power over the necessary resources such as large farms and mines and have them accept only the factions currency of choice, be it metal nuggets or paper or hell even gems. it's not something that the mod itself can impose.

(Although giving people the means to do it, like what Allen's suggestion in his thread would do, would most likely be appreciated and not by the traders among us)

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There was no money in the world until trading was so high and demanding that it was needed.

The point is that in TFC you do not really need to trade. Most people live in what is considered as auto-sufficiency.

The first thing needed to have money is to actually have a trading economy that benefits from the existence of money.

When I hear people talking about adding money to the Game what I really hear is how much they wish there was a lot of trading in game.

So if you want money think of suggestions to make trading needed. Because until people need to trade, money will not be a reality.

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TL;DR of the thread: You want trades? You need jobs. Specializations. Large range of skills. Lower efficiency for people that lack skills. Until then, economy is nothing but producers.

Yeah, seriously, if living economy is a must for coins to have a value, jobs should be a requirement. Have people invest their time to a/2 particular skill/s until they're productive enough to supply other people who uses it. The server starters are the most precious assets to a server and a faction. When an admin OPs someone, 3 random skills are increased for as long as the person is an OP to encourage the person to improve on their gift. OP can assign people to professions so that their skill will increase based on the profession assigned. Training should also be encouraged. For example, someone chopping wood in the vicinity of a master logger would get more experience. People watching a master quickly chop a tree would get some experience. oh my im derailing this thread but srsly skills A master miner will mine fast*. a master logger will chop fast*. a master cook will easily identify flavor. A master smith will make masterwork toolheads and armor. A master planter will be able to identify soil easier and increase yield of plants(but not fruit trees)*. However, if you, a farmer, try to mine while you are not skilled, you will have a hard time(and stone). Unskilled people will only give marginal result compared to skilled ones to make the imbalance required for trading to be useful. Basically, jobs are needed.

*For the sake of gameplay! Yes, they don't depend on skills IRL, but that's what they do in games. Gameplay.

The enforcement method only works when the admin are enforcing it. If only some factions agree to use coins to trade, they may invite other members of the server to use coins and converting them to coin-user. They may not.

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I never liked the idea of "you are assigned a job of Miner! Now go and hold LMB for three hours straight.  Shoo, shoo! ". Because that DOES sound like a job, and I have a REAL job, so I don't have the need to have another fake one.

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Well, someone doesn't like to roleplay, apparently. Of course you can communicate to the OP for the job. You can go focus on what you like from the game and let others do what they want. You want food? Go buy some(a lot) with your paycheck from mining 50 salt/30 graphite or from finding an ore vein. You want to focus on smithing? Good, your skill is increased. Now do it because you want to do it. OPs not cooperating is another problem.

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Instead of The server admin or OP assigning jobs, what if it was a question of location?

Like I said if you want to have money you need strong trading.

Lets make the ore vein bigger a lot bigger but farther apart. So when you find Hematite you going to take possession of all the land on that region or biome, exactly like it goes on real life.

The problem is that there are no other ores close by so you actually need to trade with the other towns on the server for all other ores.

The reason we have trade in Real Life is because we want something that we cannot obtain any other way.we travel half way around the world to get oil and we ship food to the desert oil rich producers.

When creating a town you would have to choose between a land favorable to harvesting crops or rich in minerals.

As long as the game mechanics are change even basic resources can be made scarce in terms of how spread they are with the condition that once you find then you going to have enough for trading for all your needs.

I am not saying that I want the mod to go in this direction, only that  is a sure way to make trading  a reality on multiplayer.

It would only work if town creation would give the player dominion over a whole biome and each biome would have a random richness. Be it a ore or grains or even wood.

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I have read this topic before and gotten some ideas, but as I didnt want to revive it, I hadn't posted, now that it is revived, I'll go.

A) First off, money would insinuate a capitalistic economy, and it is a historical fact that NO capitalistic economies in the world have emerged without at least several hundred people working in a realitivly limited area. Practicly no server ever has been that big, and smaller than in the hundreds, bartering works just fine

 

B) If money is "Officialy" introduced, there would be nothing preventing anyone who wanted to be rich from just counterfiting hundreds or thousands of coins and flooding the economy. No resource is rare or valuable enough to be made into money without allowing anyone with a mind to to make many, many more and unbalancing the economy. Money has been tried in other mods and if their aren't NPCs, which the creaters aren't going to add, to accept it, the money is essentialy worthless.

 

C) If you realy want to make a monetary system in a server, do as suggested above, mod in x amount of some random vanilla only item like vanilla diamonds or emeralds or gold nuggets or whatever. That will prevent, without further modding, inflation and would keep the value of the money stable, as long as everyone accepted the money as having value.

 

D) Now this is the realy important one, The creaters of the mod, in a much more recent post that mentioned money, have stated they are not going to impliment it in this mod. Theirfore, this whole discusion is pointless, or atleast in the wrong catagory.

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Coin mint/stamp are OP-only block/building. No counterfeiting.

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the only value of a coin mint that only the admins of the server could use would be if they wanted to impose a top-down economy, and I can't see how that would improve gameplay in any way.

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