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Tathar

Nutrition: picking up where meals left off

51 posts in this topic

I'm just now realizing how slowly the hunger bar depletes now.  I'm thinking that making the hunger bar deplete faster or making foods restore less of the bar might help complement nutrition.  What does everyone think about that?

 

This should be adjusted judiciously and can have great ramifications as to what kind of mod TFC becomes.  Adjust it too far and you risk focusing all of the player's efforts on eating and staving off hunger.  Hunger should not be a constant distraction: "Mined 10 blocks, time for a steak!" "Mined 5 more blocks, need a sandwich." This is hyperbolic, but the point is still there.  If you eat well, you should be rewarded with relatively long stretches of satiety.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure it's worth tweaking just that one parameter outside the context of an entire food/nutrition overhaul.  The changes introduced will affect the rate of hunger bar depletion and the devs will have to address that as part of the overall direction of the mod.

 

If some people would like to see this as more of a survival mod, I would love the option of a much more developed add-on that incorporates perishable foods, nutrition, reworked hunger, and food preparation mechanics.

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With pots in the game I'm not too worried about needing to carry multiple food items. If you have room for one food item you have room for four. Lunch pot. Not to mention that it's not that hard to just eat out of chests and whatnot. Heck you can use any random block to serve as storage for four food items if you have a knife and a bowl. Eat from there. If you need food for travel there's pots.

 

My thought, really, is that you should not have to eat often, but you should have to eat considerably more than you do. So rather than eating a steak and filling up your hunger bar and watching it rapidly deplete, the amount of the bar food items fill should be reduced across the field. Then make food more accessible, and give better bonuses (and perhaps penalties) for having your hunger bar above or below certain thresholds.

 

I don't like the idea of food giving diminishing returns simply because you eat too many of the same thing. You can live your life practically on little more than bread and water, with a few supplements here and there. It's not like you need to keep eating more and more bread.

 

Rather than punishing people for eating the same thing over and over, perhaps reward them for having a more diverse diet. Some kind of morale boost. You have more energy for a while because the last three or four items you've eaten have been different. Meals would count as a different kind of foot item. So if you make the same meal twice in a row you don't get the boost. But if you make three different meals you're golden.

 

The alternative, in my opinion, would need to be a more in-depth nutritional system as is being discussed in the Nutrition thread. If you're going to start forcing food diversity you might as well go the distance and do it as a well thought-out system.

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I really don't see what's wrong with a few staples in the diet

 

I'm just now realizing how slowly the hunger bar depletes now.  I'm thinking that making the hunger bar deplete faster or making foods restore less of the bar might help complement nutrition.  What does everyone think about that?

I just measured how long the onset of starvation takes. I started a new world on peaceful and didn't run around, doing my usual early game without sprinting, drinking but not eating until my hunger depleted. It takes about a month (28 days) calendar time for heath to finally be affected (and a big chunk is taken out at once). However, I also watched how long a day-night cycle lasts in TFC, and it's about two days on the calendar, so this gives us about 14-15 days game time before hunger starts getting you. If I hadn't started eating then, I think that by the end of the 15th day, I would have succumbed to hunger.

 

I think this is about right, actually. You can actually last quite a while without food, because you burn off your inner reserves. The present starvation is in line with the three-three-three rule: three minutes without air, three days without water, three weeks without food.

 

 

Third, how many different types of food will the player eat under this system?  If a player can achieve full benefits from just alternating between two or three foods, especially if they're collected the same way, then the goal of food variety hasn't been achieved.  

Most people didn't eat a large variety of food until modern times anyway. In olden days, you'd have one or two major staples with a smattering of other food. The staples varied from region to region depending on what would grow in each region. I'm therefore not too concerned with a great amount of resolution to this nutrition thing. Besides, if you find yourself in a region where the RNG is not being kind to you, you would be SOL if you had to eat a large variety of food to stay healthy. There needs to be a reward for variety over and above basic necessities, instead of a penalty for not doing so.

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It occurs to me that there's already three different kinds of nutrients that crops need, and each crop needs only one.  There's three food groups right there.  Make meat a fourth, and fruit a fifth.  (Or distribute some of the fruits among the others.)

 

Only problem is, fruit trees are quite rare lately.  I've yet to see one in my current world.  (And yes, I'm in an appropriate latitude.)

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Perhaps, instead of having the hunger bar increase when you eat, and decrease over time, their can be a hidden "fullness" bar, which, when you eat, fills up and depletes just like the hunger bar does now. When your fullness is full, your hunger bar goes up and when it is empty, it goes down, all the values in between changing gradually. This would encourage people to eat large meals instead of snacks every once and a while.

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Perhaps, instead of having the hunger bar increase when you eat, and decrease over time, their can be a hidden "fullness" bar, which, when you eat, fills up and depletes just like the hunger bar does now. When your fullness is full, your hunger bar goes up and when it is empty, it goes down, all the values in between changing gradually. This would encourage people to eat large meals instead of snacks every once and a while.

Please. No. Have you ever tried playing with Iguanaman's hunger overhaul? That exactly what that mod does and it becomes far too obnoxious. If it was added to TFC you would have to eat meat raw because finding and killing an animal would empty your hunger bar. Each weapon stab/swing and jump takes away hunger. Heavy armor also takes up extra hunger when you move. In vanilla, I had to carry two stacks of steaks every time I went mining. Either it's the numerous ways you can lose hunger or the fullness bar, but I had to disable it in my modpack. It was really debilitating. Made it impossible to do day to day things.
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Warning: Math incoming.

 

I just checked, and it's possible to eat the same thing up to 44% of the time and still have 100% nutrition, given the specifics in my OP.  It would require more micromanagement than I'd like (understatement) but it's definitely possible to have a staple food and high nutrition at the same time.  

 

If each set of foods eaten was increased from 25 to 50, then the percentage increases to 72% with the same level of micromanagement.  With significantly less micromanagement, you could probably get away with 40-50% staple food that way.  

 

Either way, it wouldn't kill someone to have less than 100% nutrition, so what I just said doesn't really mean much.  Do what you like.

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This is my first post on this forum so please be gentle. 
 
Introduction:
I have been playing TFC for some time now and have fallen madly in love with it. As someone who has always had a fondness for survival, wilderness and otherwise, it should bear some weight when I say that TFC blows all its competition away in the subjects of Geology, chemistry and Physics. However there is one subject that I feel TFC tragically lacks in and that is Human Biology. Now, I would love an advanced disease and complex injury system in addition to complex nutrition. Obviously, however,  I understand that the gods of Terrafirmacraft work with obvious limitations, Java and the architecture of Minecraft being the most insurmountable. That said, and admitting that I have very limited coding experience and have only dabbled in game design, I have constructed a basic outline for the core of what a Nutrition system would need to add some challenge to a problem we still struggle with in this day and age: Food and the Lack thereof
 
A nutrition system should be based, at least loosely, on the most fundamental aspects of human digestive needs. Calories, Proteins, Vitamins and Minerals, and Fats. For the purposes of this proposal and the purposes of dramatically reducing complexity and difficulty, lets assume the human body will get enough fats through the consumption of these other nutrients. 
 
That said, we are left with three basic things: Calories, Proteins and V&Ms. I will be the first to admit that lumping V&M's into one simple category does the study of biology and chemistry a great disservice but for these purposes the tracking and monitoring of the dozens of Essential vitamins and minerals a human body needs would be prohibitively difficult and would add almost nothing to the experience. 
 
What follows is a very general outline and all facts, figures and math should be taken with a grain of salt. That said I have also done a fair amount of research on these subjects so take that as you will (I will be using Work to refer to speed with which blocks are broken when exerting force):
 
Calories: The core of the bodies needs, Calories act as fuel required to operate cells, muscles and damn near everything else. A loss of calories would have severe ramifications inevitably resulting in death. 
 
Caloric Restriction: To have the body continue to burn calories at the same rate when dying of starvation as when full of hot delicious goodness would be not only game-breakingly unbalanced but also woefully inaccurate to real life. When the human body loses enough calories and has not received new caloric intake it activates a slew of signals to slow metabolism and to burn fat to prevent its own destruction.
As such we the players calorie count would reach below, say 40%, the body would begin burning fat to keep itself functioning, it would also activate such things as sirtuins to increase mitochondrial development and slow the metabolism.
 
Caloric Abundance: Conversely to the restriction mentioned above, when humans and most other animals are inundated with food and caloric resources they begin storing fats for later use when food sources are not so abundant. That said the rates of Caloric consumption should look something like this as the percentages shift from 100% (Full and Fed) to 0% (Starving to death) and burn rate changes from 4x at overfed to .1x at starving.
 
200%-101%: 4x |Fat Growth at 1% of Calories burned until 100%
100%-81%: 2x |Minor Increase Heal Rate
80%-51%: 1x |No Benefits or penalties
50%-31%: .5x(.75x w/o Fat) |Burning fat
30%-11%: .3x(.5x w/o Fat) |Minor Slowed Speed, Work, Damage and Stop Heal
10%-0%: .1x(.25x w.o Fat) |Minor DOT, Major Slowed Speed, Work and Damage
 
Fat: Representing stores of energy for later use, fat has a number of other uses such as insulation against cold weather and cushioning from impact and other external damaging forces. 
As a general outline fat could be stored in the players body when the caloric intake exceeds the 100% mark. While the excess is being consumed, 1 calorie for every 10 burned would be stored as fat for later use. 
When the body would begin burning fat it would do so in addition to existing calories, for example when at <40% calories the body would burn calories at .75X it's normal rate. However if you have body fat it would burn that at a rate of .25 and the remaining calories in the body at a rate of .50. In this way fat would act as a mitigating factor when starvation begins to occur. 
Fat would not be without its drawbacks, however. At 30% or higher Body fat content the excess weight would cause slowing of movement speed, at above 40% would reduce work and slow speed even more as well as increase the rate of Caloric burn.
As Body temperature has yet to be implemented Fat's effects would likely need to be determined in later releases after the kinks have been worked out of the basic system.
 
Proteins: Proteins are chains of amino acids which make up massive stores of energy and can be used to a small degree in protein synthesis, building new muscles through exercise. 
A lack of Protein would likely result in weakened muscles and physical strength and endurance. 
 
100% - 91%: Minor Increase in Work, Speed, damage and Heal Rate
80% - 71%: No benefits or Penalties
70% - 51%: Minor Speed Debuff
50% - 31%: Stop Healing
30% - 11%: Major Speed Debuff, Minor Work and damage Debuffs
10% - 0%: Major Speed, Work, Damage Debuffs, Can't Heal
 
V&M: On the more wild and interesting spectrum Vitamins and minerals, or the lack thereof can result in some fascinating ramifications from losing of teeth to reduced immune system (did I mention I really want to see disease in TFC because I REALLY want to see Disease in TFC) to even hallucination and a massive range of other mental and physical issues.
Unfortunately with this level of variety in the importance of V&Ms it would be hard to nail down a specific result from a deficiency and as such I have little to offer other than examples of ways in which a loss of V&M could affect players.
 
In my mind the easiest way to affect the player would be to have 2 major types of V&M: Mental and Physical. A lack of Physical could result in odd visual effect and filters on the players screen, inability to sleep in beds from insomnia, sudden change in directional controls or simple drifting off course, even hallucinating mobs would be an interesting way of showing the mental degradation from a loss of essential vitamins and minerals. As for physical it would likely be done in the same way as Protein or Caloric deficiency unless of course Disease were to factor in. 
 
 
UI: As for Representation, it was brought up that a person doesn't know when they have less than a certain percentage of a given nutrient  in their System. However, this can be easily corrected by have a general description of one's wellbeing:
You are feeling strong and energetic but a vague sense of being unwell cannot be shaken (For a lack of V&M)
While healthy enough when working you feel weak and sluggish (For lack of Protein)
Or in more specific terms, categories of wellness can reflect ones nutritional wellbeing:
 
(Cheesy Example)
Vigor: Poor (For Protein)
Vitality: Fair (Calories)
Vim: Good (V&M)
Constitution: Lean (Bodyfat Percentage)
 
In any case there you have it. A General outline of a very basic Nutrient system for TFC, as you can see it wouldn't be too terribly different from the system that's already in place, adding a bit more complexity and challenge. 
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Welcome to the Forums!

 

A nutrition system as well as food decay has already been added for Build 78. The nutrition is extremely simplified but still believable (not realistic) because it needs to be properly balanced for enjoyable gameplay.

 

There are 5 categories of food: protein, vegetable, fruit, grain and dairy. Each category accounts for 20% of your total health, so if your max health is 1,000HP and you are full on every nutrient but one, your max health will be 800HP.

 

The player inventory UI has been expanded to show inventory, calendar, skills and health via tabs.

 

Posted Image

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Oh! I didn't really understand from the livestream.  So... what was he talking about with the debuffs?

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The debuff is that you just lost 20% of your possible max health if you never eat something from a specific category.

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Oh, ok, that's perfect.  I though it was like a slow effect or something.  Great idea.

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The debuff is that you just lost 20% of your possible max health if you never eat something from a specific category.

so If I can't find cows, I will always lack 20% of my overall health?

We need more dairy products

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I second this opinion!

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Do eggs count as dairy?  They are sometimes lumped in with it irl...

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Pretty sure dairy is milk and milk products such as cheese, yogurt, etc

 

Anyways, we have 9 fruits, 13 vegetables, 5 grain(10 if you count bread, I guess), 7 meat(protein, also, 8 if you count eggs), and 2 dairy products.

All veggis and grain can be gotten via breaking grass, meat can be gotten by finding any animals, or squid-hunting, fruits need fruit trees, and dairy needs cows.

 

And I think if all nutrition has the same effects, I think it needs some adjusting, don't you?

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Eggs are part of the protein group. Although I agree that they are sometimes lumped into the dairy category especially in the states. Eggs are always in the same section at the grocery store as all the dairy products since they have to be refrigerated, and both eggs and dairy products fall into the same category of "animal food product that isn't meat."

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Thanks for the welcome, the community here seems really great. 

 

I had no idea there was going to be a nutrition system being added and now I feel like a bit of a tit (Bird not anatomy) formulating a system what is now vestigial. I am a little disappointed to see that it's based on food groups. I have a few gripes especially in regards to having a lack of dairy being essential enough to have a drawback without it. 

 

Many cultures, before widespread trade and commerce were able to survive fine without Dairy, re Japan. In actuality dairy is, by and large, non-essential and is usually a supplement for communities who lack easy, regular access to fat soluble vitamins which can often be acquired by local hoofed ungulates (ovines, bovines all that) as they can break down the cellulose in grasses and tougher plant material on account of their multiple stomach chambers.

 

Another main purpose dairy serves, at least before pasteurization, is to replenish gastric and intestinal bacteria which can assist in the processing of food. This however is usually only necessary for communities that are regularly plagued with purgative diseases (dysentery, stomach flus etc.) as these deplete bacteria. That said even that purpose is unnecessary as that is exactly what the appendix is for and why the appendix is such a ticking time bomb:

The appendix stores a small supply of essential bacteria which are released after a massive dangerous purge to recolonize your intestine. This, however, can become unbalanced leading to appendicitis and ultimately peritonitis, sepsis and death.

 

Dairy is also high in calcium as well but that is easier accessed in nuts and vegetables, though lacking the extra lipids (fats) that can encase the calcium as calcium is not often water soluble. Though as long as you eat calcium in other things high in good fats, eg almonds, or eat fats with your calcium rich veggies. 

 

Also Fruits and vegetables by and large serve the similar purposes (Kale, Broccoli and Cauliflower being even higher in vitamin c than even oranges) which is usually why they are often lumped together, not only that but many vegetables are actually biologically fruits so I would be concerned about the accuracy of these meters. For example Zucchini and Cucumbers are biologically fruits as they are the ova of plants containing diploid cells for reproduction. The primary purpose of these is for vitamins and minerals which are hard to come by in Grains and animal byproducts.

 

Mainly what my issues come down to is that a person could survive without any health ramifications eat only animals and the occasional vegetable or nut (Liver being crazy high in vitamins and minerals, as well as blood being nutrient rich when cooked). Other communities subsist fine on nothing but fruits, vegetables and grains completely abstaining from meats and animal byproducts. To say any of these are essential enough to merit a 20% loss in health should they be found lacking is not only inaccurate but does a disservice to vegetarians and the Inuit tribes that survived in Tundra with minimal Vegetables and no fruits to speak of. 

 

Obviously beggars can't be choosers so, if the powers that be decide to stick with a food pyramid, I'm not in a position to stop them nor will it ruin the game for me but I would really like to see a nutrient dependent necessity system rather than a food group based one. 

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Obviously beggars can't be choosers so, if the powers that be decide to stick with a food pyramid, I'm not in a position to stop them nor will it ruin the game for me but I would really like to see a nutrient dependent necessity system rather than a food group based one. 

Like, people in the cold arctic needed more fats and such to make more body heat?

What I'd like is if each food group/nutrition had different effects then just, 20% health control.

Say, your body keeps warmer if you have fat, so while in hot places, fat is a non-desirable food, in cold places, eating lots of fat is needed to keep warm.

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well... I like the simplicity of the balance, even if it isn't exactly realistic.  Having a list of every vitamin and mineral needed, and keeping track of them in both static levels in different foods as well as dynamic levels in players would be unnecessarily complicated.  

 

However, dairy does need fixing. I'd say either lump it into proteins and get rid of the category entirely, or add eggs to it and give sheep milk.  And add sheep's cheese.  I mean, come on, who doesn't like feta?

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But what if we don't keep track of every vitamin and mineral needed?

Instead of protein, grains, vegetables, fruits, and dairy, we can have vitamins, protein, fats, minerals, and carbohydrates or something like that.

 

So we don't have to look for the specific foods. Instead of looking for specific foods, you can substitute other foods.

Like, grain is the main source of carbohydrates, but you can use corn and potatoes in a pinch to get your carbohydrates if you can't find grain

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Keep in mind, the purpose of the original suggestion was to give a purpose to having a varied diet and encourage people to seek out different foods.  I believe that build 78's nutrition system accomplishes this pretty well.  While a nutrient-based system could work to some limited extent, if foods are too interchangeable or replaceable, then we're missing the point of having so many different foods available again.  

 

Since I wrote the OP before this system existed, let me give my analysis of the gameplay considerations introduced in this version.  The problem with build 77's food options was that late-game, when you have access to lots of different foods, you're still probably only munching down on a single type of fruit because it's the most accessible food available.  It's a waste of the food variety in TFC, and it discourages the use of more involved food-making processes.  Now in build 78, you can't do that without only ending up with 20% of your total health.  It pushes you to explore the other content and try new foods.  This is a good thing, and a nutrient-based system could complicate the relationship between the nutrition system and food-making processes.  

 

The only thing left I'd still like to see is more differentiation within the food groups, such as some sort of culinary difference between cherries, apples, and bananas.  However, build 78 accomplishes so much in terms of rewarding food variety, and I like the implementation better than my own original suggestion.  

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Keep in mind, the purpose of the original suggestion was to give a purpose to having a varied diet and encourage people to seek out different foods. 

But the only thing this really does is make you just eat 5 different food.

Just eating mutton all day and just eating mutton, apples, rice, corn, and cheese all day.

Sure it makes you try new foods, but only until you get food from the 5 groups. Then you just eat them all day long.

 

I thought three things which I believe can improve nutrition a bit.

1. Overdoes:

If you eat too much of one food type, you can get an overdose of the food, which would at highest, decrease 4% of your total health(so if you have an overdoes of all five, you get -20% total health)

 

2.Different nutrition values:

Different food gives different nutrition values. If egg gives say, 3 units of protein, steak gives 12 units of protein

 

3.More nutrition:

Some food gives more nutrition then just one food. Say, soybeans are in the vegetable group, and fill your vegetable meter, but also slightly fill up your protein meter.

 

This way, you can't just chop on one food type to fill it up. You need to alternate between food that gives lots of nutrition. and little nutrition to have a healthy, balanced diet.

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Eggs are part of the protein group. Although I agree that they are sometimes lumped into the dairy category especially in the states. Eggs are always in the same section at the grocery store as all the dairy products since they have to be refrigerated, and both eggs and dairy products fall into the same category of "animal food product that isn't meat."

 

It makes sense that eggs are protein, because they are so high in it.  I don't get why dairy is a requirement though.  Many cultures around the world don't drink milk past infancy.  It is hardly a dietary requirement.  Milk should be counted as a protein, and the same with cheese.

 

If possible they could act as both a protein and a carbohydrate, maybe even a bit of fat.  Though the way food is structured now that wouldn't work, because there is no fat bar.

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