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Shiphty

Challenge vs. Annoyance

55 posts in this topic

My main problem is I feel tedium in what's currently in game. Maybe that's just my problem but I've hit the iron age and a wall. I want to make a crucible but I've mined until my eyes bled. 2000 blocks in each direction, making swiss cheese of any rock that could contain kaolinite but not a single trace to be found. I think to myself okay, I know this part is absolute shit but lets just push on, get past it! But for what? So I can spend another week swiss cheesing the ground trying to move up in metals, for what? To do it again? I don't think that there's a challenge in the game at this point, just a throttled gaming experience. Maybe I need to try playing on a server or maybe TFC just isn't for me. I don't know anymore.

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My main problem is I feel tedium in what's currently in game. Maybe that's just my problem but I've hit the iron age and a wall. I want to make a crucible but I've mined until my eyes bled. 2000 blocks in each direction, making swiss cheese of any rock that could contain kaolinite but not a single trace to be found. I think to myself okay, I know this part is absolute shit but lets just push on, get past it! But for what? So I can spend another week swiss cheesing the ground trying to move up in metals, for what? To do it again? I don't think that there's a challenge in the game at this point, just a throttled gaming experience. Maybe I need to try playing on a server or maybe TFC just isn't for me. I don't know anymore.

 

I would agree to an extent.  There's a limited sense of metal progression discovery for me once you get that copper propick.  At first you're scouting for stones and get an idea where the shallow deposits are.  Then you make a pick/propick and start looking for veins underground.  But there's no next step after that.  You don't get a more effective pro-pick, you don't get any more efficient or better at hunting for metals.  You don't get any more advanced ways of finding deeper metals.  I'm curious what the devs have planned to address this issue or if this is still an open-ended question.

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I would agree to an extent.  There's a limited sense of metal progression discovery for me once you get that copper propick.  At first you're scouting for stones and get an idea where the shallow deposits are.  Then you make a pick/propick and start looking for veins underground.  But there's no next step after that.  You don't get a more effective pro-pick, you don't get any more efficient or better at hunting for metals.  You don't get any more advanced ways of finding deeper metals.  I'm curious what the devs have planned to address this issue or if this is still an open-ended question.

I find myself thinking the same thing. There has to be something, a next tier of technology to help mining. Something.

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Well I believe they are looking at adding rudimentary forms of power generation. Mechanical and possibly steam power. So my thinking is that the benefit of reaching higher tiers of metallurgy will be automation and increased efficiency, allowing more materials to be processed in shorter amounts of time.

 

Which kinda comes back to what I said earlier. It's alright for things to be time-consuming as long as there is something to work toward to make it less time-consuming. You work hard to reach a certain point, and from then on you have the tools to make everything you did up to that point relatively trivial, and you can refocus your time on other goals.

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TFC is not the best mod to be used for 'model building.' Pretty much every single task in vanilla Minecraft takes longer and is more involved in TFC. In some cases wildly more involved. However, I've had no trouble building large structures once advanced tools are available. It takes longer, particularly because you need to perform many other tasks during the process of building, but it's never taken me enormous amounts of time to build a reasonably large structure. I can only assume that you're taking on this project at a point in the game where your tools are substandard, if it is taking you that long. And well, that's your decision.

 

Why not just have one level of tools that work extremely fast? Why force the player to work through tiers of metals in order to work at their maximum potential? Why prolong things at all? If all we're here to do is just build model dwarven cities then maybe we're playing the wrong mod. TFC is very much more about the journey between point A and point B, that's why all of these systems exist, that's why it's 'tedious' to players who are mostly concerned with the end result. TFC forces you to build infrastructure and take extra steps and spend time exploring in ways that vanilla doesn't even come close to. It boggles my mind that someone would use TFC to build a model city and then complain about tedium. TFC is rewarding because it is harder, because it is more of an investment of time and planning. In vanilla minecraft you could bake any metal in an oven. In TFC you have the option of doing it slowly in a campfire or using one of the several installations you can construct in order to do it progressively more efficiently. The fact is that smelting metals over a campfire is tedious. If you think that 'overcoming tedium' isn't a selling point then I don't know what you get out of TFC. I assume it's something, but I don't know what.

 

The point I was trying to make is that yes, certain tasks are hard and time-consuming until you have the right tools and the creativity to mitigate those things. Which was a point you seem to have utterly missed.

 

A limited inventory is only time-consuming as long as you i) don't have the right tools to mitigate it, or ii) aren't innovative enough to find solutions.

 

There are two possibilities for building an underground dwarven city more quickly.

 

1) Wait until you have the tools and technology to build infrastructure to support its construction. Build minecarts and rails that you can fill up with far more blocks than you could normally carry, push it outside, empty it into a pile, and repeat. Yes, the net result is that it takes longer than it does currently, but it has also given you an excuse to engineer something you wouldn't have otherwise. Frankly, taking the time to engineer the infrastructure required to build something magnificent is almost as satisfying as (and occasionally more than) building the project itself. If you're clever you can make many jobs easier by investing a little time and resources into preparations rather than just running at a wall and swinging your pick blindly until it breaks.2) Pick a site that actually makes sense. You could dig out a whole mountainside or, like peoples in the past have frequently done, settle a site that makes that job easier. Maybe it's a natural cavern you're simply shaping. That reduces your workload by an enormous magnitude. Maybe you've picked a site that has a natural vertical cave drop next to it, so that you can easily dump your excess dirt/stone into it rather than carting it outside. 

Don't be afraid of challenges, find ways to overcome them. That's part of why I like TFC. In vanilla minecraft any location is as good as any other location. It's lego for adults. I like games that force me to find ways to overcome a difficult process. I like games that make me build structures and infrastructure because they provide some tangible benefit, instead of just building them because they look neat. If somewhere along the way I end up with a fortress built of carefully crafted stone, I know that it was because through planning and labor I made it possible. That is rewarding. Chewing through 800 cubic meters of stone, pocketing it, and rapidly constructing a castle, is in my opinion wildly more tedious because it lacks the interim stages that make that process interesting.I don't think that's a niche in TFC players, I think that probably makes up the majority of us. We might all disagree on the finer points of what constitutes tedious, what our limits and preferences are, but I don't think there's many TFC players who want TFC to be more like vanilla. I think most of us want more depth and complexity. But there's no point introducing new tools like handcarts and wagons and functional roads if the player can carry a castle in his pocket. There's already a pretty advanced system for minecarts available and nobody uses those. Because they are absolutely unnecessary. That's my point. By placing limitations on the player you give them the opportunity to find creative and interesting ways to overcome their limitations. You open up myriad possibilities for future content to help mitigate those limitations.

 

I said 20 blocks of stone off the top of my head. That's not necessarily the number I'd choose. Where it comes to inventory limitations everyone has a different threshold for what is annoying. If you could carry one less block of stone would it bother you? Two less? Ten less? Twenty less? A hundred less? For Mossman his threshold (he thinks) is one. For me I think it's closer to twenty. For someone else it might be one stack of 64. Etc etc. The number isn't important, it's the spirit of it. Limitations lead to innovation.

 

I am not "model building" any more than someone who makes a log cabin.  The structure I'm building is functional.  The chamber I've mined out is going to be a smithy, it will contain twenty forges and four smelteries plus rooms for storage and whatnot.  I am using bronze tools.  I could be using steel tools but I've an aversion to setting up a makeshift forge/smeltery out doors... I want my first steel making experience to be conducive to focusing solely on the task at hand.  It took a month or two to get to where I am because I'm on my fourth server... the first one closed down, at the second one the owner started just freely spawning whatever he pleased for himself and anyone who was nice to him... the third one had so many technical difficulties that my progress was all eventually erased and I had to start from scratch... further... each time I start over I have to gather all the resources I want to begin with and find an ideal site... which is no mean feat.  All this takes time.

 

Additionally... there were other tunnels dug which I haven't mentioned... some service tunnels... others are mining tunnels from whence I derive my metal.  As I understand it steel isn't much faster than bronze so your argument about substandard tools doesn't seem to carry much weight but instead completely ignores the fact that having to stop mining every twenty blocks and then go to the surface to dump my rocks would exponentially multiply the time it takes to do any mining at all.  Honestly, this argument is more like a dodge and seems to me dishonest.  Did you really need all this explained to you?

 

Let's talk about storage and leave off the ridiculous amount of time you want to add to mining... log piles contain 16 logs... but let's assume you want a rock pile to be able to hold 32 rocks.  I've over twenty five double chests full of rocks from excavating that chamber alone.  Each double chest holds 45 stacks of 64 rocks.  I'm doing all of this without actually referring to the exact number of chests... but let's just say i've got 72,000 rocks.  That's 2,250 piles of rocks.  For a single chamber.

 

Honestly... I don't have the energy to address the rest of what you said.  You built strawman arguments.  "all we're here to do is build model dwarven cities" is not something I said.  You are dishonest in your representation of my position on multiple counts.  Firstly, I didn't say "all we're here to do is" anything at all, I never used that phrase or suggested it.  Secondly, it isn't a "model" and I'm not sure why you'd employ that term unless you're insinuating that I want to build things that look pretty but serve no actual in game purpose, which isn't the case and is presumptuous.I've made some valid points about your suggestion for limited inventory space.  It would definitely eliminate large builds.  But let's set aside large builds.  It would also completely hinder most folks from mining productively at all.  How many miles of tunnels do we all have in our branch mining shafts?  I can't imagine even mining a 2x1 for 800 cubits if I have to go back and dump rocks every time I have twenty.  It'd be faster to nap through them without making anything (another loophole) then eventually be traversing 800 plus cubits to dump and then 800 back to mine for more.  Folks would never get past bronze.

 

It's a bad idea.

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......

 

It's a bad idea.

 

I think this can be a good idea if it's implemented well.  One might start out with little inventory space and low carrying capacity.  But at the beginning, all you're carrying are wooden logs, a few rocks, and thatch.  Then you make a leather backpack, you get more inventory space.  You start mining, but find you can't carry all the stone - it's too heavy.  But as you advance technologically, you can build a wagon and your weight capacity increases.  Then you can move a lot more stone/bricks/etc.  You build advanced storage units.  After advancing further, you build a rail system and your carrying capacity along those lines multiplies drastically and weight is not an issue.  Just some ideas that immediately come to my mind.

 

You may not be able to carry a castle in your pocket when you spawn fresh on a shore for the first time with nothing but the clothes on your back, but after you advance enough, it would be satisfying to see how far you've come and get a real feel for progress.  And of course, the situation you described sounds miserable and no one would ever want to deal with that nonsense.  But ideally that would never happen if the mechanics are balanced well: you should have inventory/carrying capacity appropriate for your technological level.

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Low inventory space would be difficult at the beginning. I have tried multiple times starting over when i was trying to get a flawless start without a death from monsters. Cutting grass, gathering rocks and sticks, chopping trees and digging for clay need a lot of space when you don't have a chest. This is obstructed also when you find seeds, small ores, food and try to find a good place for a home. Most of the times i had up to half my inventory filled with various things.

 

You can stockpile wood, but rocks, sticks, clay, tools, seeds, food has to be carried. Clay can be made into blocks and stored, one way or the other it's still a lot...

 

This could not be a problem as i would start gathering seeds in bronze age, food on a second day or when i am able to make clay vessels. Getting to your first chest is a drag and imagine you aren't able to find any native copper or tetrahedrite for some time. Not finding clay from the start would also be a hindrance.

 

The idea is an interesting one, but should be thought over, without limiting the player to have to create new worlds, hoping he has most of the things so he/she can store the big amounts of items in his/her inventory.

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Yo, limited inventory would fuck up my stone ages, I'm usually already full of vessels when I settle (and some are just dumped on the way!)

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Inventory restrictions would certainly alter the way that one plays through the ages, but yeah, the system would have to be thoroughly thought out and tested.  It would be far too easy to make it over-burdensome, but rewarding if done right.

 

Perhaps having dedicated inventory space (like pockets) for really light/tiny things could help.  In the current standard inventory, 1 item takes up 1 space no matter what it is.  That way a tomato seed has roughly the same dimensions as a stack of wooden logs.

 

One thing I'm definitely not proposing is just limiting the inventory space without making other adjustments or unlocking inventory advancements.

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I am not "model building" any more than someone who makes a log cabin.  The structure I'm building is functional.  The chamber I've mined out is going to be a smithy, it will contain twenty forges and four smelteries plus rooms for storage and whatnot.  I am using bronze tools.  I could be using steel tools but I've an aversion to setting up a makeshift forge/smeltery out doors... I want my first steel making experience to be conducive to focusing solely on the task at hand.  It took a month or two to get to where I am because I'm on my fourth server... the first one closed down, at the second one the owner started just freely spawning whatever he pleased for himself and anyone who was nice to him... the third one had so many technical difficulties that my progress was all eventually erased and I had to start from scratch... further... each time I start over I have to gather all the resources I want to begin with and find an ideal site... which is no mean feat.  All this takes time.

 

Additionally... there were other tunnels dug which I haven't mentioned... some service tunnels... others are mining tunnels from whence I derive my metal.  As I understand it steel isn't much faster than bronze so your argument about substandard tools doesn't seem to carry much weight but instead completely ignores the fact that having to stop mining every twenty blocks and then go to the surface to dump my rocks would exponentially multiply the time it takes to do any mining at all.  Honestly, this argument is more like a dodge and seems to me dishonest.  Did you really need all this explained to you?

 

Let's talk about storage and leave off the ridiculous amount of time you want to add to mining... log piles contain 16 logs... but let's assume you want a rock pile to be able to hold 32 rocks.  I've over twenty five double chests full of rocks from excavating that chamber alone.  Each double chest holds 45 stacks of 64 rocks.  I'm doing all of this without actually referring to the exact number of chests... but let's just say i've got 72,000 rocks.  That's 2,250 piles of rocks.  For a single chamber.

 

Honestly... I don't have the energy to address the rest of what you said.  You built strawman arguments.  "all we're here to do is build model dwarven cities" is not something I said.  You are dishonest in your representation of my position on multiple counts.  Firstly, I didn't say "all we're here to do is" anything at all, I never used that phrase or suggested it.  Secondly, it isn't a "model" and I'm not sure why you'd employ that term unless you're insinuating that I want to build things that look pretty but serve no actual in game purpose, which isn't the case and is presumptuous.I've made some valid points about your suggestion for limited inventory space.  It would definitely eliminate large builds.  But let's set aside large builds.  It would also completely hinder most folks from mining productively at all.  How many miles of tunnels do we all have in our branch mining shafts?  I can't imagine even mining a 2x1 for 800 cubits if I have to go back and dump rocks every time I have twenty.  It'd be faster to nap through them without making anything (another loophole) then eventually be traversing 800 plus cubits to dump and then 800 back to mine for more.  Folks would never get past bronze.

 

It's a bad idea.

 

By 'model building' I mean 'making large elaborate structures that are inherently time-consuming far beyond their functionality.' That seems to be the purpose of your game, currently. You have a 'model' in mind and you are working tirelessly to bring it to fruition despite the fact that it is not even remotely efficient. Is that not an accurate depiction?I don't have anything against model building. I regularly build large, attractive structures just for the sake of it. But if you enter a game and your first thought is 'I need to get started on my <huge project>' then you are model building as a goal rather than allowing model building to be an interesting side-track. There is nothing wrong with that either, and I never said there was. It's just that if your goal in TFC is to build large elaborate structures then it is an incredibly inefficient and time-consuming mod for that purpose. Every single feature of TFC makes doing this harder. You shouldn't be surprised that along the way it is going to get even harder and more involved, because that is what every feature does already. It is safe to assume future features will continue to make it harder.

 

I am sorry you feel I am presenting a strawman. I don't think I am, I think you are being overly defensive.

 

I also think you are ignoring all of the interesting suggestions for inventory management and resource handling. Again you say 'if I had to stop and cart stone to the surface every 20 blocks' as if that is what I was suggesting you do. But either you are willfully ignoring things that have been said or you simply aren't reading them.

 

Yes, building large structures will be far too time consuming... until you have the tools and infrastructure to support building large projects. Just like building a full set of armor and a weapon is wildly time consuming if you're still running around picking up rocks off the ground hoping for ore. But eventually you develop the tools to mine effectively and suddenly it's not so hard to put together a suit of armor. Mining out a tunnel will also be time consuming until you have developed storage containers, carts, minecarts (I like the idea of wooden minecart/tracks that are not as fast and can't carry as much as metal minecart/tracks), etc. 

 

If you take the time to build tracks and a cart into your 'dwarven city' and create some storage containers then you could be moving rocks out of your tunnel at pretty huge numbers and it wouldn't slow you down much at all. That's the whole point. Introduce difficulties and give the player tools to overcome them.

 

I don't think it's a bad idea at all. It would just need the appropriate attention in terms of balance, new content/recipes, and new features. It's not something I'd tack onto the current game by itself.

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By 'model building' I mean 'making large elaborate structures that are inherently time-consuming far beyond their functionality.' That seems to be the purpose of your game, currently. You have a 'model' in mind and you are working tirelessly to bring it to fruition despite the fact that it is not even remotely efficient. Is that not an accurate depiction?I don't have anything against model building. I regularly build large, attractive structures just for the sake of it. But if you enter a game and your first thought is 'I need to get started on my <huge project>' then you are model building as a goal rather than allowing model building to be an interesting side-track. There is nothing wrong with that either, and I never said there was. It's just that if your goal in TFC is to build large elaborate structures then it is an incredibly inefficient and time-consuming mod for that purpose. Every single feature of TFC makes doing this harder. You shouldn't be surprised that along the way it is going to get even harder and more involved, because that is what every feature does already. It is safe to assume future features will continue to make it harder.

 

I am sorry you feel I am presenting a strawman. I don't think I am, I think you are being overly defensive.

 

I also think you are ignoring all of the interesting suggestions for inventory management and resource handling. Again you say 'if I had to stop and cart stone to the surface every 20 blocks' as if that is what I was suggesting you do. But either you are willfully ignoring things that have been said or you simply aren't reading them.

 

Yes, building large structures will be far too time consuming... until you have the tools and infrastructure to support building large projects. Just like building a full set of armor and a weapon is wildly time consuming if you're still running around picking up rocks off the ground hoping for ore. But eventually you develop the tools to mine effectively and suddenly it's not so hard to put together a suit of armor. Mining out a tunnel will also be time consuming until you have developed storage containers, carts, minecarts (I like the idea of wooden minecart/tracks that are not as fast and can't carry as much as metal minecart/tracks), etc. 

 

If you take the time to build tracks and a cart into your 'dwarven city' and create some storage containers then you could be moving rocks out of your tunnel at pretty huge numbers and it wouldn't slow you down much at all. That's the whole point. Introduce difficulties and give the player tools to overcome them.

 

I don't think it's a bad idea at all. It would just need the appropriate attention in terms of balance, new content/recipes, and new features. It's not something I'd tack onto the current game by itself.

 

Fine, you aren't presenting a strawman, you're simply being presumptuous.  What I am doing is NOT constructing an inefficient building just for show.Do I NEED a smithy the size I've made it?  No.  But it is far from inefficient.

 

When you represent me you do so very poorly, I can hardly be blamed for calling it a strawman.

 

You say what I'm doing is inefficient... you've next to no information upon which to base that assertion.

 

I'm building a city/fortress... they are meant for multiple people.  The smithy would then need to accommodate more than one person working at once.  Much of the space I've mined out is meant for storage which I will actually use.  I've a pantry planned which will hold probably around 800 double chests.  Do I NEED 800 double chests?  No.  But I believe in advanced city planning.

What I hate is the crammed quarters I see so often where folks are constantly finding that they've no room and needing to expand haphazardly... chests all mixed and full of all kinds of things to the point that you can't find anything.

There will be store rooms for stone of each kind, there will be a place for gems, there will be a place for ores... et cetera.  I do not believe it is a waste... I won't have to spend any time trying to figure out where I left something.  Everything will be labeled so anyone who joins me will also find anything they need with ease.

 

To call my build inefficient suggests that any other way besides a spartan bee-line toward red/blue steel is wasteful.  This is minecraft after all... we do build don't we?  It's still a sandbox game isn't it?

 

And to suggest that TFCraft does not suit my playstyle is also presumptuous.  I'm not someone who wants to play in creative or skip over challenges as you seem to believe.  I enjoy overcoming challenges.  Working such things as carts, wheelbarrows and whatnot into the game could be really cool.

But your suggestions are not pragmatic.  You aren't thinking it through.  Firstly, minecarts presuppose that the individual has iron.  Acquiring iron could, currently, take miles of branch mining.  You're still looking at weeks of doing nothing but carrying twenty stones back and forth.  Then let's say that you've got the iron... now are you going to use it up on a minecart and rail?  rails are currently very expensive.

 

You assume that I jump on a server for the first time and immediately said "okay I must build my fortress immediately."  This is also not the case.  Most of the folks who've worked with me have felt that I dwell on each facet of the game too long and I feel that they rush through.  This is also why I build big.  I could've had steel a long time ago but I've waited until I had my smithy mined out.  The crucibles just sat there waiting patiently while I excavated.

 

I do resent the insistence that big builds are inefficient and superfluous, a diversion from the game.  What else is there?  There is the combat aspect for what it's worth and there is advancing along the tech tree.  I think it's unfortunate when folks leave aside making their home beautiful while they play just so they can keep advancing and worse when they advance just so they can have the most shiny weapons and armor, minecraft is a sandbox game... if you're not building you're missing out.

 

You haven't presented any solutions to eliminating inventory space almost entirely.  Minecarts and handcarts/horsecarts will not do it.  You'd still take an aspect of tfcraft that already takes a very long time (finding ore) and multiply it exponentially.

 

There's a great difference between the approach you seem to be taking and actually adding challenges... your goal seems to be dragging out the game... even a person who had employed and achieved all of your presented solutions would still have their game slow down to a crawl.

 

I have thousands of cubits of 1x2 tunnels and I've yet to lay my hands on silver, gold, and nickel.  If I mined up every last bit of iron that I've come across I wouldn't have enough for tracks to cover those tunnels alone.  I also wouldn't get to use that iron to make any other tools.

 

Listen, we get it... I'm sure everyone reading knows that you want limited inventory space.  You've presented  your reasons and some folks actually like what you have to say.  I do not.  I don't think it will work.  I think there's a very select group of folks who even like the idea and I'd bet that a bunch of those wouldn't actually like it in practice.

 

The purpose of this post wasn't to talk about limited inventory space but to talk about the more broad topic of challenge vs. annoyance.  I say that making things take longer or more difficult does not automatically make them more fun.

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TFC models real life.

 

However, it also models Vanilla minecraft. Change a few things.

 

Remove all hostile mobs. Change wolves so that they become hostile at night, change bears so that they become hostile, add large predatory cats; keep the spiders and throw in a yeti or two.

 

Most importantly. Make food rot over time, especially raw food. (All meats, over varying lengths of time, simply turn into rotten flesh.)

 

Add salt, and preservation of food. Add a new function to the ceramic vessel: you can use it as a pot, for making stews(), and for cleaning water by boiling it. Unclean water has a small chance of making you sick.

 

This would validate farming as an effective means of survival, in addition to removing the age old problem of: I wandered around and mangled fifty creatures, I'm now set until steel.

 

Have climate actually matter.

 

Is the temperature hot? You burn through thirst more quickly. Dehydrated? Status effect it. 

 

Is the temperature cold? You can warm up by wearing warm clothing(introduce expanded crafting), eating warm food, or by moving into a warm area(heated home). Cold? Status effect it.

 

I can go on, but this is merely a handful of ideas that, when combined together, considerably increase the challenge of the game, while not making it more annoying and tedious.

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TFC models real life.

 

However, it also models Vanilla minecraft. Change a few things.

 

Remove all hostile mobs. Change wolves so that they become hostile at night, change bears so that they become hostile, add large predatory cats; keep the spiders and throw in a yeti or two.

 

Most importantly. Make food rot over time, especially raw food. (All meats, over varying lengths of time, simply turn into rotten flesh.)

 

Add salt, and preservation of food. Add a new function to the ceramic vessel: you can use it as a pot, for making stews(), and for cleaning water by boiling it. Unclean water has a small chance of making you sick.

 

This would validate farming as an effective means of survival, in addition to removing the age old problem of: I wandered around and mangled fifty creatures, I'm now set until steel.

 

Have climate actually matter.

 

Is the temperature hot? You burn through thirst more quickly. Dehydrated? Status effect it. 

 

Is the temperature cold? You can warm up by wearing warm clothing(introduce expanded crafting), eating warm food, or by moving into a warm area(heated home). Cold? Status effect it.

 

I can go on, but this is merely a handful of ideas that, when combined together, considerably increase the challenge of the game, while not making it more annoying and tedious.

 

 

The majority of the things you just stated have already been either in the works, or will not be implemented for valid reasons.

 

Mobs: Already in planning, although "monsters" will simply be moved underground into caves and dungeons.

 

Rotting Food: Will not be implemented due to the limitations of Minecraft and stacking mechanics

 

Climate: The first step towards clothing, changing the wool to cloth mechanic is already implemented. Thirst also does already drain/deal damage according to temperature.

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I wouldn't say rails are expensive. At the end of the day, it takes 4 ingots to make 64 of them. But the problem is - rails are end-game. Rails itself are iron age (and are annoying to make in current system - I'd definitely like them to be steel or have a crafting recipe using steel). And you basically require to pushi carts yourself. Mind you, the way carts join together makes it very annoying to push more that one cart at a time. And powered rails are black steel age thing.

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I wouldn't say rails are expensive. At the end of the day, it takes 4 ingots to make 64 of them. But the problem is - rails are end-game. Rails itself are iron age (and are annoying to make in current system - I'd definitely like them to be steel or have a crafting recipe using steel). And you basically require to pushi carts yourself. Mind you, the way carts join together makes it very annoying to push more that one cart at a time. And powered rails are black steel age thing.

 

 

On the note of minecarts, in the case of this kind of inventory overhaul, I would like to see wooden carts and rails. They'd be slower and have less weight capacity than regular carts, and would need to be pushed everywhere, but they'd work.

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Fine, you aren't presenting a strawman, you're simply being presumptuous.  What I am doing is NOT constructing an inefficient building just for show.Do I NEED a smithy the size I've made it?  No.  But it is far from inefficient.

 

When you represent me you do so very poorly, I can hardly be blamed for calling it a strawman.

 

You say what I'm doing is inefficient... you've next to no information upon which to base that assertion.

.......

I'm building a city/fortress... they are meant for multiple people.  The smithy would then need to accommodate more than one person working at once.  Much of the space I've mined out is meant for storage which I will actually use.  I've a pantry planned which will hold probably around 800 double chests.  Do I NEED 800 double chests?  No.  But I believe in advanced city planning.

 

I don't know how you can say that isn't inefficient, and do so with a straight face.

 

Look, you're clearly taking this very personally. I don't know why, exactly. That's not my intent.

 

But suffice to say, what you are doing is not the ordinary way of playing. Why should the vast majority of players be subject to game rules that assist a handful of people in going about building vast cities by themselves without assistance? Most players want to build up. Most players aren't going into the game starting off with digging out space for 800 double chests. I don't care how you want to justify it, that's just excessive for most. As I've said, I built large and elaborate structures to house my facilities and infrastructure, but starting your private project with room for 800 double-chests is well beyond the average player. I mean feel free to be excessive, that's fine. I admire people who go above and beyond. But it's not fair to ask the developers to model their game after such a style of play. I don't mind it taking a city to actually build a city, in TFC.

 

I'm not going to bother repeating myself regarding inventory space and solutions because once again you have blatantly ignored what I've written (specifically about wooden minecart tracks) in favor of charging on down your own personal narrative. Since you're not interested in listening I'm done talking about it.

That said, I focused on inventory space because I think it's a very good example of how the line between tedium and challenging gameplay is fuzzy. It wasn't even initially my idea - it just does a very good job of bringing out the different sides of the equation, and it's particularly interesting because it's very much a flexible concept. You could decrease available inventory space a little bit, a lot, or take it to an extreme. Or staunchly refuse any change whatsoever. I wanted to drive home the point that what is tedious for one person is challenging to someone else. And the trick to making tedium interesting and challenging is to provide game features for players to work toward overcoming them.

 

For the majority of players, increasing the challenge of moving inventory around in the world, results in having to build items and infrastructure to overcome that challenge and reach a level of efficiency approaching what it was before such a change. For you, the exponential end result might be extreme, but for most people it would be entirely manageable. Most people aren't digging out room for 800 double chests in advance. And I'd argue that every single feature of gameplay that affects mining also exponentially affects such a vast project, so it's nothing new.Anyway, I think you've shown pretty well that you are at one extreme end of the spectrum. You've made your case. There are obviously people who have posted that such an idea would appeal to them. Everyone has different ideas of how it might be best implemented and balanced. But I think what this is really about is that you have a very specific playstyle which most people don't really have the stomach for in the first place, and because of that you are taking a preemptively defensive stance against any change which might make things harder for you. The fact is that everyone plays TFCraft for different reasons, and you staunchly defending your own extreme playstyle is hardly any less selfish than people wanting a little more depth and challenge.Anyway, I am confident that the devs will take a balanced approach on whatever (if anything) they decide to do with inventory down the road.

 

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 Working such things as carts, wheelbarrows and whatnot into the game could be really cool.

.  Firstly, minecarts presuppose that the individual has iron.  Acquiring iron could, currently, take miles of branch mining.  You're still looking at weeks of doing nothing but carrying twenty stones back and forth.  Then let's say that you've got the iron... now are you going to use it up on a minecart and rail?  rails are currently very expensive.

 

Thats the thing, for this system to work there would need to be other methods of carting goods around. You said it yourself, carts (human powered, animal powered(horse, bull/ox)) wheelbarrows, minecarts (having wooden one would help early on (if it makes sence), while you could upgrade later for more speed/ more carry capacity), even sleds if you wanted to go that far.

 

Unless these are added, then the game would not work, as as you stated it would take years just to mine a small tunnel.

 

Personally i think if done correctly, it could work great, as it would make people actually use carts for what they are ment for, and would encourage the use of roads ect.

 

 

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The introduction of stuff like special road tiles (perhaps a new mode on the shovel) would be incredibly interesting to me, especially if they provided a small speed bonus to walking (perhaps 15%), and then have a system by which stuff like handcarts move quite slowly off-road (perhaps 50% normal walking speed) and at about 90% on roads. I'd love to have to build infrastructure like roads. I've built roads before for the hell of it, but I've always wished they had some function.

 

The problem is, adding stuff like handcarts and roads is superfluous for the most part, because you can waltz through the forest with a castle in your pocket. For transportation methods to be useful and interesting you need to make transportation more difficult. That's why I'm in favor of limiting inventory space - because it's the only way to make things like minecarts worth building beyond the novelty of riding it down a hill. What I find fun about TFC is that it makes building things practical. In Vanilla you can pretty much do everything inside a single small room. There's no reason to explore beyond curiosity (TFC fixes this by spreading resources around), there's no reason to build structures beyond creativity (TFC fixes this by rewarding efficient design and having a lot of industrial facilities that need housing), and there's no reason to build transportation beyond the novelty. So far TFC hasn't given us an excuse to build minecarts or roads or anything else. Some might see inventory restrictions as adding to tedium, true. But I see it as expanding our options. Suddenly there's value to all of these ideas, like extra storage space for your inventory, minecarts, roads, and handcarts. Suddenly there's a reason to worry about the basic infrastructure that forms the basis of every civilization; transportation through which to move resources.

 

A well designed, well-balanced system should provide a maximum efficiency that isn't far from where we are now BUT requires some time and resource investment. Build your big projects but do so with a backpack and bags, with a minecart to shift stone around, and handcarts and basic roads to service the branching tunnels.

 

Anyway, I think wooden minecarts are a good idea. Here's how I'd balance it; wooden carts don't roll on their own, even on hills. They need to be pushed along and don't have any way to power them. I'm actually not sure if powered minecarts are a thing in TFC, but if so, being able to run powered minecarts to automate the process would mean all you would need to do is fill a minecart, press a button, watch it go, and fill the next minecart. When you're out of minecarts ride the last one to the dump and empty them out and send them back to your project. It'd be nice to have a system like that which actually dramatically improve efficiency instead of just being a total waste of resources.

 

The fact that Shiphty said 'But if I'm making iron rails then I can't use it to make tools' kind of highlights the absolute uselessness of rails, currently. That shouldn't be that useless that you balk at sparing a handful of ingots, depriving you of a few of your hundreds of tools you eventually make. Rails should be powerful tools. There's a reason why in real life mines would use up tons of iron digging out more iron: because it was far more efficient to do so. TFC is nice in that there are occasional motherload ore veins where an iron minecart track would totally be worth the investment - if it weren't for the castle-in-a-pocket effect. If you're not saying 'okay, digging out all this ore is taking too long' then what reason do you have to use minecarts?

 

Anyway, point is, you can find the entertainment in things by imposing limitations on yourself. Just by playing TFC you're already implicitly on-board with that philosophy, as there is pretty much nothing about TFC's features that aren't directly limiting the player from doing things they could do in Vanilla. As a mod it introduces very little that is new to Minecraft except for those objects and mechanics whose whole existence is predicated upon trying to delay you from acquiring items that are easily crafted in vanilla. Everyone who plays TFC is implicitly saying 'I want it to be more challenging to do these things I can do in Minecraft.' They are implicitly saying that tools should be harder to get. That digging tunnels should be harder. That finding metal should be harder. That building structures should be harder. At the end of the day, if you complete the tech tree, then what do you have? Minecraft, basically. Vanilla minecraft. The same tools and equipment, plus a lot of stuff you had to make to get there. A few extra features like the ability to carve wood and stone and place planks, some new animals. But for the most part, you have put wildly more effort into the game just to achieve what is (roughly) the Vanilla Minecraft experience. Obviously this has some appeal to people or else why would we be here?

 

Things taking longer and being more difficult to do is the basis upon which TFC is designed. And it is the very fact that things take longer, and are harder to do, which makes doing them more rewarding.

 

It is leagues more exciting to build your first good home out of good materials in TFC, than it ever was in Minecraft building a castle on a mountaintop because you really couldn't think of what else to do with the two thousand cobblestone in your inventory. I care more about my accomplishments in TFC because I work harder at them. Things like castles and towers and cities have more value to them because they require a considerable investment of time and scarce resources compared to vanilla. Things are innately more impressive the harder they are to accomplish. Which is why a castle in vanilla creative mode is yawn-worthy while a castle in survival mode is far more interesting. And why a castle in TFC is impressive as hell. You know that person went through the trouble of crafting the tools necessary to manufacture thousands of brick blocks.

 

So while in theory I agree with the OP - it is possible to go too far in simulating the minutia of every moment of gameplay - the broad strokes of the brush that the OP uses are such that if his perspective were applied from the start this mod would never have seen the light of day. Because every feature has made things 'more tedious.' Every feature has made things more complicated, more difficult to do. And there-in lies the fun of this mod. It is a careful balance, true - but failing to try and sticking with the status quo is hardly balance at all.

 

So I will say what I often end up saying in forums like these;

 

Let the people suggest what they will, and don't get upset when someone suggests something you don't like.

 

Let the developers make the mod they want to make. It is unlikely that any one thread is going to change their mind - the best you can hope for is that you might inspire them to work on something before they might otherwise, or give them an idea they hadn't thought of but fits in with their concept of the game. They aren't going to reluctantly implement a feature they don't like just because someone spent a few pages of a thread harping on about it. It is perfectly possible that they agree with the OP on the inventory thing. It is also possible they don't. In the end not everyone can be happy with every decision they make, but thus far they've done a damn good job and I'm happy to trust their vision. 

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I give.  You win Hyena.

You've proven your superior ability to shovel verbiage.

 

I find in your representation of my position you consistently ignore what I say in favor of what you imagine to be true.

I also find much of what you say, suggesting that I'm an extreme case and that most players do not play the way I do... while you yourself are another extreme case.  The difference between us is that my playstyle does not superimpose itself on others... no one has to build the way I do.  If the changes you suggest are made it would affect everyone.

You talk about the way most players play... most players I've met and most folks I've read on this forum seem to find suggestions like yours unappealing.

 

And I also find it ridiculous that you can address the way I play personally, misrepresent the way that I play, and then when I correct you you turn and say that I'm taking the conversation too personally.  Sophistry at its finest.

 

I'm not going to check this topic any longer, you've dominated the conversation and are not being productive.

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the only way to make things like minecarts worth building beyond the novelty of riding it down a hill

there's no reason to build transportation beyond the novelty

a system like that which actually dramatically improve efficiency instead of just being a total waste of resources.

 

The fact that Shiphty said 'But if I'm making iron rails then I can't use it to make tools' kind of highlights the absolute uselessness of rails, currently.

Are you kidding me. The way you have said first three theses I quoted somehow makes me think those "large and elaborate structures" you build are not that large at all. Because I sure as hell build rail systems even in vanilla minecraft not just for novelty or the looks. I somehow find moving twenty inventories of stone to building sites uncomfortable. Again - IN VANILLA.

Rail systems in TFC are not useless, although they are hindered. YOU don't use them. Because YOU would rather make a dozen of picks and walk everywhere. Because efficiency, I guess. Oh, and overcoming tedium of walking.

 

I am sorry I caved in under the desire to yell at people, but I held it for a bit too long for my liking.

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I give.  You win Hyena.

You've proven your superior ability to shovel verbiage.

 

I find in your representation of my position you consistently ignore what I say in favor of what you imagine to be true.

I also find much of what you say, suggesting that I'm an extreme case and that most players do not play the way I do... while you yourself are another extreme case.  The difference between us is that my playstyle does not superimpose itself on others... no one has to build the way I do.  If the changes you suggest are made it would affect everyone.

You talk about the way most players play... most players I've met and most folks I've read on this forum seem to find suggestions like yours unappealing.

 

And I also find it ridiculous that you can address the way I play personally, misrepresent the way that I play, and then when I correct you you turn and say that I'm taking the conversation too personally.  Sophistry at its finest.

 

I'm not going to check this topic any longer, you've dominated the conversation and are not being productive.

 

Very mature.

 

Every time you have attempted to describe how I am misrepresenting you, you have pretty much managed only to reinforce what I have said. I am not even sure how you think I misrepresented you in my last post. Every point I made was in regards to something you specifically said you did - starting a build with room for 800 double chests. All I said is that most people don't start off their build thinking about 800 double chests. That is the only piece of information I needed to make the points I made, and no amount of additional context would have changed that. But just to be sure, I did read all of your post through several times. Despite the niggling feeling that you have failed to fully read several posts you have responded to. I have repeatedly said that I find nothing wrong with the way you play. I have even said I admire it. I just don't think that the developers should use your playstyle as a guide for how they develop the mod. If you get defensive and touchy about that, yes I'm going to call you out and say you are taking it personally. Sophistry my foot.

 

As to whether or not I'm being 'productive' I'd have to disagree with that. Disagreement can be very productive. If you didn't want disagreement then why did you start a thread basically drawing a line in the sand? What is this thread about if not the conflict of 'game mechanics' and differing playstyles? You can't start a thread detailing how you believe the game should progress in opposition to what you see as a 'common' theme, and then call disagreements and suggestions 'unproductive' just because people didn't rapidly fall in line behind what you've said. Ironically the inventory suggestion pretty much followed your OP to the letter; It adds a new dimension to the game, a new challenge to overcome - things you specifically mentioned in your OP, but are still staunchly against. Specifically because it conflicts with your playstyle.

 

Again, just because I am disagreeing with you doesn't mean it's unproductive. As I said, in theory I agree with your OP. However you have consistently represented yourself as having a balanced and moderate perspective, and consistently represented any disagreement with your point of view as 'extreme' and 'harmful to the game' when it's fairly clear that you don't hold the middle view. I find that dishonest. The health and depth of the mod, and the vision of the developers, come before any one person's personal play style.

 

Literally my only position here, is that limitations provide rationale for other features to be added. I suppose my position might be extreme, but if it is, then I'm already in good company. The developers have already taken steps toward inventory limitations. They have changed the way stacks work. I can carry sixteen logs in a stack instead of 64. About half as much stone blocks. Already they have nudged the bar down. That was a change that also affected everybody and nobody more than the builders and miners. Most of the features in TFC impose limitations in order to suss out additional gameplay mechanics: If ore wasn't hard to find you wouldn't have much use for a prospector pick and the entire mining subgame would go away. If kiln-smelting was an efficient way to get every metal ingot then you wouldn't have much reason to build a crucible or a bloomery and the smithing subgame would go away. I see room for a subgame built around moving resources. You don't. That's fine, we disagree.

 

People often fail to see the potential to improve gameplay by imposing limitations. I am by no means saying that inventory limitations is the best possible change. I am simply countering flimsy arguments against the idea because it points out that for the most part, the disagreement isn't about whether such a system would work or improve the game, only that it would hinder YOUR game. And you fail to see how that isn't necessarily a good argument, and are confused as to why someone who doesn't share your view of the game might not agree. And that's disappointing.

 

Every change in the game affects everybody. Every single change. That in itself is not a reason to not explore deeper systems. If it were you'd have a handy go-to argument against every feature in the game. You've already seen inventory get drastically reduced. Depending on your building material you can only carry about half what you can in vanilla. A bit more if you use lots of pots. I think this improved the game dramatically. You need to plan ahead now, where before you could pretty much keep everything you needed in your inventory. Could more be done? Maybe. I think it's worth looking into because further limitations could bring about positive change the form of interesting new features.As I have said, there are plenty of features in TFC that have no particularly compelling reason to exist, and there are plenty of things people have talked about adding (such as handcarts and roads) which would serve little purpose beyond the cosmetic using the current inventory system. The resource expenditures involved in minecarts and the like are very rarely worthwhile.

 

Anyway, you said you weren't going to check in on this thread, which is a shame. But it's your prerogative.

 

Are you kidding me. The way you have said first three theses I quoted somehow makes me think those "large and elaborate structures" you build are not that large at all. Because I sure as hell build rail systems even in vanilla minecraft not just for novelty or the looks. I somehow find moving twenty inventories of stone to building sites uncomfortable. Again - IN VANILLA.

Rail systems in TFC are not useless, although they are hindered. YOU don't use them. Because YOU would rather make a dozen of picks and walk everywhere. Because efficiency, I guess. Oh, and overcoming tedium of walking.

 

I am sorry I caved in under the desire to yell at people, but I held it for a bit too long for my liking.

 

'Large and elaborate' yes, 'massive and sprawling' no.I didn't say I built any vast, massive, gigantic, enormous, huge, or anything denoting anything other than 'large' and 'elaborate' structureMy 'large' may be dwarfed by some particularly industrious people but they are nonetheless pretty large.

 

You can lug around a total of 2304 items in your inventory at once in vanilla. You said twenty inventories. That's 46080 stone. Don't get me wrong - I find builds that require 46080 stone fascinating and impressive. And I've probably - over the course of numerous chained projects - built up structures and areas around them that used up some amount of that number. Over a decently long period of time. I have never gone and mined 46080 stone in one go just to cart it back to build something that would require 46080 stone. I can see how a minecart might be a relief in that situation but I'm also skeptical that you're actually saving much time. Twenty trips doesn't take very long compared to how long it would take to actually mine the iron for the tracks, construct them, and then lay the tracks. That in itself is going to require a number of trips, digging, planning and smelting time.

 

Unless you are moving truly enormous amounts of objects in one solitary sitting then the amount of time spent building the rail system in the first place is going to dwarf the time saved in moving goods. It is like any investment; you need to measure the return against the cost. If you want to improve the value of the return you need to play with the 'time saved' variable. Or decrease the cost of constructing the rails. We shouldn't need to move 46080 stone blocks before a rail system is genuinely worthwhile.

 

Anyway, again, as I said to Shiphty; I admire people who take on vast, 46080 stone projects. In TFC they already take much longer than they do in Vanilla. Yes I am aware that they would likely take even longer with (additional) changes to the inventory system. But you seem to be getting by alright despite the fact that you can carry half as much stone in your inventory than you could back in what, update 62? That didn't stop you from building vast structures. You're still kicking along. Further changes wouldn't kill you either. In fact, if you're already in the habit of building minecart tracks for your builds, you probably wouldn't notice a huge change. It's just that the value of minecart tracks would increase to the point where they actually have value to the average player rather than only to those people building vast structures. Ie, you would need transportation methods with smaller-than-epic builds. I personally feel that large construction projects would be made more interesting and more rewarding by requiring that additional measures (in the form of transportation) before they are easily undertaken.

 

In any case, getting angry and upset at people over their suggestions is, once again, silly. There's no 'winner' of a suggestion argument. The Devs aren't keeping a tally.

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Just read through the entire thread, and I'd just like to say to Mr. Hyena Grin that I find your arguments logically compelling, enjoyable to read, and respectful to whom you're arguing with. And to Sir Shiphty, I'm sorry you're taking this so personally. Anyway, on to the main topic:

 

I would like to chime in here and say that a general overhaul in how minerals are distributed and recovered by the player could be beneficial. If resource distribution is less homogenous (Depending on the rock type, I can typically find enough ore for a bronze colossus in a single chunk or two, digging vertically), and minerals are treated more like rock layers themselves then bits of candy sprinkled at random within a layer, then we can approach a more realistic and varied technique for mineral exploration, I think.

 

If, for example, one could detect traces of a particular mineral throughout the entire rock layer of a particular region, and could see something like this, which is a seam of coal exposed in a natural formation:

Posted Image

 

That it would more or less eliminate the benefits of digging kilometers of 1x2 tunnels for prospecting purposes. The more or less artificial limit on the higher-tier ores spawning in lower layers makes little sense to me; Adhering more closely to real-world geology in these terms would make surface prospecting more viable. I would much rather walk 10 Km along the surface in hopes of seeing an exposed seam of ore in the face of a cliff (Which I've seen in real life more times then I've seen in TFC) then dig an 800 meter tunnel. I could be wrong, but I think many people would agree with me here.

The truth is that digging tunnels IRL isn't easy, and the only reasons you'd have to do a whole lot of it is to get valuable rocks out of the ground. I think it'd be grand if the only reason to ever dig close to the bedrock would be if you were following an ore vein. I know I can't speak for everyone here, so sorry if you take offense to my petty whims here. Just food for thought.

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While it might not adhere 100% to real-world geology, I think the gem system could be used as a complicated prospecting method if tweaked right.  Say, agates would only appear near Kaolinite, and the larger the agates the closer you are to a vein.  This would make sluicing sand a viable option.  The gem-radius would be a lot larger, but in being larger it would give you more room you'd have to search.  It would, however, hopefully elimate what I think is the wretched method of 'mine 1000 blocks, prospect walls, repeat'.   Perhaps also include sluicing useless rock pieces as well, so you can tell what's below you/around you, the straight-down mining is a bit unrealistic.

 

As to the pocket castles, perhaps packaging could come in here?  I mean, I can see someone carrying 32 dirt (No, not talking square meters of dirt, just talking perspective-like), but not able to access it all.  Say, dirt stacked to 4, but you could cube dirt in the crafting grid and compact 4 down into 1, and four of that farther down into one.  With this, you could implement rope (from straw) and burlap (from straw) specifically to tighten the blocks down.  That way you can still carry as much as you normally could, but you'd need resources to do so and you can't just unpack it all in your inventory.  As to storing, I like the idea previously of piles, I could envision a multiblock structure made rope and sticks, creating an inventory you can put things like rock, dirt, limestone, ore, etc in.  Like a very large 'box', but visual growing pile?

 

Of course, the first part above would increase the amount of gems lying around, but I'd never be one to pass up (even if entirely useless) sacrificing them to a diety.  Could be mechanic to change your 'fate', making less rain, more rain, you'd never know, much like older civilizations that just sacrificed things when stuff wasn't going their way.  Which, we all know actually didn't really do anything, but we can just call it creating coincidences.  I mean, if the weather gets better because I sacrificed 64 huge rubies, who's to say I didn't help, even if in my own head?

 

On the idea of the burlap and rope above, a single-use bedding to set spawn would be nice, with the downside of perhaps being a horrible nights sleep, waking you up very tired, slow, hungry, and thirsty?  Even cavemen slept through the night.  You could even make it take a lot of straw just to balance it (because it probably would take a lot).

 

Things like that I personally believe would add challenge by increasing not only the length, but the actual usefulness of the stoneage.

 

Also, following some of the ideas of surface deposits, something interesting to add to world-gen (which, I know this is probably crazy), would be tectonic plates.  You 'could' look in massive ravines that are likely part of fault lines for surface deposits, but these areas would have greatly increased cave in chances.  One thing, though, that might aleviate the need for surface metal, and perhaps take us closer to ancient roots would be a page from another mod, Tinker's Construct.  They have ore-gravel, this would make rivers the bounty they really were, albeit trying to track the ore up the river most likely a nightmare.  Would give a proper place to use a gold pan as well, or a sluice for increased chance at that metal.  Still small pieces, but hey, I know a lot of us have gone a bit crazy looking for copper now?

 

Alas, I think I'm rambling. Time to call this a post and hit the button.

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Not to take everyone out of the discussions, as everyone here places lengthy posts, but i think some of these ideas could be pasted as topics in the Suggestion section. Even the base outline of what you all write here and we could all discuss each and every one of them separately.

 

I personally found a couple of things in this topic interesting and would indulge into discussion (as some of you also could), but in this topic it will be hard :P

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I think increased inventory space is fair compensation for the fact that the day is only ten minutes long, that I will starve to death in five hours and die of dehydration in an hour, and that I cannot walk a kilometer from morning to dusk — whereupon I'll have to find shelter fast before the monsters get me. That, and I cannot just walk up a slope, and instead have to jump meter high stairs.

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