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Rhapsodyman2000

Combat Revamp Opinion Poll

TFC Combat   38 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you believe this represents your opinoins about TFC combat

    • Yes
      22
    • No
      1
    • I have something to add/remove
      13
    • I have a better Idea
      2

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

32 posts in this topic

This is a Repost from the Combat Revamp thread.

As I understand it, I hear many players are more interested in PvE. However, I wanted to get a poll of the People interested in this.

Like Bioxx, I believe that we cannot treat this like real life. With the features so far, we are able to address many of the challenges we encounter in PvE and PvP. However, while we are not lacking much in principle, there are things that should exist that would make combat more immersive.

To list a few: shields, armor weight, More projectiles weapons, Chain mail armor, War animals, Mob Upgrades. Some of which have been said in the Suggestion page.

But here is how I see it:

  • [*]
Shields: From personal experience with using the Asgard Shields mod I've found that its use against projectiles were well founded, but its use in close courters combat is situational.

For example:

  • [*]
If Cornered- It could be used to push back your opponent, like a shield bash. [*]If Jumped- it will allow you to stand your ground without breaking the flow of combat.

  • [*]
Armor Weight: If used in combination with shields, it could fixe many gaps in the flow of combat. From what I've seen of this mod which is similar to TFC (But more combat oriented), Mine Fantasy it creates a system of armor weight that may be appropriate for us. This would allow for more variety to a players choice of arsenal, may it be the light armor with ranged weapons choice, or heavy armor with melee weapons choice. However, like it was said by p122 in this Thread:

The problem with speed modifiers is the usual scenario:

Player A is in plate armor and alone. Slow, lumbering.
Player B is in leather, with a bow.

What will happen now is that Player B will now continually run away from A, shoot an arrow, and rinse and repeat. Since A cannot run as fast as B, there won't be a way from him to catch him with a melee weapon no matter what he does. So now he has the options of switching out armor mid-combat, changing to a bow himself, or die.

This Issue can be resolve through choices by Player A:

  • [*]If shields exist, he can use it to reduce the oncoming damage of his opponent as he advances and/or hope Player B advances into his range or Stops his barrage. [*]if War animals exist, He could use it to attack player B or expose him and/or If it is a Horse (An Armored Horse would be Ideal), use it to outrun his opponent. [*]He himself could attempt to shot his opponent dead while letting his armor take the damage. fast shooting, Preloaded weapons like a Crossbow would suit this need well.

  • [*]
More Projectile Weapons: Even though the current features of Ranged attack are sufficient to deal moderate damage, There is lack of GOOD disposable ranged firepower in TFC. The regular bow, although its arrows are disposable, lacks power and the Javelins, although powerful, lack disposability. I imagine this is intentional, yet this also hinders advanced combat and makes ranged weapons only second rate and used for inflicting slight damage and not to kill. This sort of feature was done well by our own home-grown mods ExtraFirma and the now abandoned Terra Bow Mod (Now Renewed). These sort of feature would grant players an edge in combat even if they lack strong armor, In addition, If added with my past mentioned features, It would link well together and make combat a little more strategized.

  • [*]
Chainmail Armor: This is more or less a feature that would suit well with Armor Weights, it would create and intermediate class of warrior that could afford to do both melee and ranged attack. The armor would vary against piercing and be better suited to deflect slashing than Crushing blows yet I believe it would receive a warm welcome from the TFC audience.

  • [*]
War Animals: This, for the most part, focuses on Horse. I have shared this opinion already in the Suggestion page and Dunkleosteus Stated:

Horses will probably be implemented as they are (aside from a few tweaks just to bring them on par with other TFC animals) before any major changes are made to them.

So I understand the circumstances of this feature a little better than the others. Yet I will state again, here, that I believe Horses clade in armor would enhance the combat structure of TFC with or without the addition of Armor Weights. It would grant greater mobility to player. In addition, like it was simply put in the Thread, I believe a Critical hit should be granted to horse bound players. On the other-hand, we currently possess Wolves, which if modified correctly, could become a better companion when attacking players. However, because of current changes they can no longer breed. This is sad and I fear that this may kill part of this idea, but I will let the admins correct me.

  • [*]
Mob Scaling: This is more of a PvE feature than PvP, but Mob Scaling would be create a vastly improved challenge to night combat. In principal, mobs would start with little armor or weapons and work up to stronger armors as the player or group average EXP exceeds the qualifier for better armed mobs. This would increase the challenge for mob battles.

As to features like Skills and Magic, I believe we have to approach it cautiously. Too much focus on skills and the mod becomes like that MMORPG server pluggin. Too much focus on Magic and this mod becomes like Ars Magica or Thaumcraft (Not to say that there is anything wrong with the mods, Its just not my cup of tea). This doesn't mean that skills don't have a place, hell the EXP to Health system is a great feature, but is it necessary to have many more modifiers. As to magic, I do not know were to go with it, I just hope if it ever exists, it is purely additive.

To me, this seems more of a Compilation than original idea, but then again, that is what this Thread needs. A little organization.

 

Proposed Ideas:

  • Inventory Limits: By Sting_Auer

I think a system like this would work if we had set weights to all items (and weight cap for players). Also, make items have a certain size on the inventory grid. I.E.

Posted Image

 

Something that would arguably be required for combat to be better balanced is a player inventory limited by mass and volume. Being able to carry one of each weapon, enough arrows for an entire army, and an extra suit of armor or two pretty much defeats the purpose of things being better against other things, since you can just swap out your gear based on the situation.

 

Everything devolves into seeing what they're wearing at this instant, switching to the appropriate counter, then ambushing them and hoping you can kill them before they swap out to THEIR better gear.

 

A mass limit would slow you down as you added more weight to yourself and your inventory. Wearing a heavy suit of armor would approach or surpass the mass cap, slowing you down. Lightweight armors (or foregoing armor entirely) wouldn't have a risk of maxing out your mass limit unless you were carrying many sets, and at that point the volume limit would kick in and limit you in that way.

 

  • Equip Time: By Ravenleft

This is well said in the Quote, a GUI that if interrupted, forces the player to stop equipping.

A simple solution could be to make the process of removing and/or putting on armor itself the limiting factor making it take enough time and effort to put on and/or remove armor pieces to be impractical to change anything during actual combat because it would leave you vulnerable for too long.

One option is to make the action of adding or removing an armor piece trigger a timer that, if interrupted before completed, would cancel the action. Another option is to completely disable the ability to change your armor at all in the inventory GUI and move it somewhere else like perhaps the campfire GUI. Combined you would need to set up a campfire to alter your armor and it would also take time before the action is completed forcing you to remain in the GUI during the process so that you again can be interrupted by either leaving the GUI yourself or by some external influence (you're pushed, attacked, etc).

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Something that would arguably be required for combat to be better balanced is a player inventory limited by mass and volume. Being able to carry one of each weapon, enough arrows for an entire army, and an extra suit of armor or two pretty much defeats the purpose of things being better against other things, since you can just swap out your gear based on the situation.

 

Everything devolves into seeing what they're wearing at this instant, switching to the appropriate counter, then ambushing them and hoping you can kill them before they swap out to THEIR better gear.

 

A mass limit would slow you down as you added more weight to yourself and your inventory. Wearing a heavy suit of armor would approach or surpass the mass cap, slowing you down. Lightweight armors (or foregoing armor entirely) wouldn't have a risk of maxing out your mass limit unless you were carrying many sets, and at that point the volume limit would kick in and limit you in that way.

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Something that would arguably be required for combat to be better balanced is a player inventory limited by mass and volume. Being able to carry one of each weapon, enough arrows for an entire army, and an extra suit of armor or two pretty much defeats the purpose of things being better against other things, since you can just swap out your gear based on the situation.

 

Everything devolves into seeing what they're wearing at this instant, switching to the appropriate counter, then ambushing them and hoping you can kill them before they swap out to THEIR better gear.

 

A mass limit would slow you down as you added more weight to yourself and your inventory. Wearing a heavy suit of armor would approach or surpass the mass cap, slowing you down. Lightweight armors (or foregoing armor entirely) wouldn't have a risk of maxing out your mass limit unless you were carrying many sets, and at that point the volume limit would kick in and limit you in that way.

 

A simple solution could be to make the process of removing and/or putting on armor itself the limiting factor making it take enough time and effort to put on and/or remove armor pieces to be impractical to change anything during actual combat because it would leave you vulnerable for too long.

One option is to make the action of adding or removing an armor piece trigger a timer that, if interrupted before completed, would cancel the action. Another option is to completely disable the ability to change your armor at all in the inventory GUI and move it somewhere else like perhaps the campfire GUI. Combined you would need to set up a campfire to alter your armor and it would also take time before the action is completed forcing you to remain in the GUI during the process so that you again can be interrupted by either leaving the GUI yourself or by some external influence (you're pushed, attacked, etc).

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Sorry about to Poll, I seems that when editing the post, it removed it, I Will do edits here from now on. Also, please share opinion after voting.

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I would love to see an inventory encumbrance system. Add two extra variables, one for mass and one for volume. When one limit is exceeded, the container (inventory, chest, etc) cannot accept any new items, or maybe have multiple limits that involve increasing walking speed penalties. The number of slots is unimportant as long as the mass and volume limits are enforced, for instance say you put an anvil in an empty chest, although only one slot is used, the chest would be virtually full and unable to accept more items.

 

Why have an encumbrance system? Realism. Logistical challenges and restrictions have gone mostly overlooked in Minecraft, but I think they would provide more depth to the experience. Pack animals would be needed to move goods from one place to another, you could implement wooden carts and wagons. Mining could be slowed down as you'd need both a miner and someone to carry the stone and ore to the surface. Get rid of item drops in their current implementation altogether and make a debris system where you are forced to clear the heavy stone that's mined from the tunnel walls or else it will impede your progress in the tunnel. You can implement animal powered windlasses with hide bags for vertical transport of the mining material and a wooden cart/rail system for horizontal transport. Read De Re Metallica (1556) for illustrations and inspiration.

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It's almost like you've read the private chat log between Bioxx and me <3

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I'd Like to add that Mine & Blade has made a comeback (although it seems not to be compatible with TFC) as Mine & Blade Battlegear 2: Warcry. Features like would be a best illustration of Equipment inventory I can come up with. I would Also like to add that Mods like BetterStorage is a great illustration of advanced storage and inventory management. (Better Storage has no official update to 1.6.2, look in the development updates)

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*Player A is in plate armor and alone. Slow, lumbering.*Player B is in leather, with a bow.What will happen now is that Player B will now continually run away from A, shoot an arrow, and rinse and repeat. Since A cannot run as fast as B, there won't be a way from him to catch him with a melee weapon no matter what he does. So now he has the options of switching out armor mid-combat, changing to a bow himself, or die.

Seems reasonable, Player A was stupid, he should have worn the appropriate gear for the situation.The Bow was king of battlefield. It's only because of western obsession with knights and swords that we feel that somehow ranged combat isn't fair. If anything should be added to even up the odds is a changing attack, where pushback from taking damage is ignored. Hmm, or maybe pushback from standard arrow heads, should be removed.Look at this scenario in another light, You player B don't yet have lots of metal. How else are you going to take on someone fully armored up? If he is dumb enough to come out in the open, where you can run away. Why wouldn't hit and run be your tactics?
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Seems reasonable, Player A was stupid, he should have worn the appropriate gear for the situation.The Bow was king of battlefield. It's only because of western obsession with knights and swords that we feel that somehow ranged combat isn't fair. If anything should be added to even up the odds is a changing attack, where pushback from taking damage is ignored. Hmm, or maybe pushback from standard arrow heads, should be removed.Look at this scenario in another light, You player B don't yet have lots of metal. How else are you going to take on someone fully armored up? If he is dumb enough to come out in the open, where you can run away. Why wouldn't hit and run be your tactics?

I think you're right, but we must have a bit of balance, especially when Player A's disadvantage isn't always a lack of planning. Whether it is shield, horses, or crossbow, Player A needs something that can if not turn the tide, prolong his life. Of course, I'd expect such tide turning actions to come from careful thinking and preemptive measure rather than equipment stacking.
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As I had said in the post this is originating from, chainmail needs padding and only works in certain situations aka not against a mace or a stabbing weapon. Chainmail can be effective for the "archer" loadout or the "Light cavalry" loadout, but it takes at least 200 hours to make one suit of the stuff. You'd have to include cloth padding as an armor, as well as different colors of it for aesthetics, and as a crafting item for you to be able to wear chainmail, otherwise your character will feel more pain than they want to when slashed by a zombie. Other than my tossed coins, the other thing you should look into is lamellar armor: vikings wore this stuff and made it look good in europe (basically).

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As I had said in the post this is originating from, chainmail needs padding and only works in certain situations aka not against a mace or a stabbing weapon. Chainmail can be effective for the "archer" loadout or the "Light cavalry" loadout, but it takes at least 200 hours to make one suit of the stuff. You'd have to include cloth padding as an armor, as well as different colors of it for aesthetics, and as a crafting item for you to be able to wear chainmail, otherwise your character will feel more pain than they want to when slashed by a zombie. Other than my tossed coins, the other thing you should look into is lamellar armor: vikings wore this stuff and made it look good in europe (basically).

 

Well, I do not know how long it takes to make Plate armor, but I think that there times are comparable once you have acquired the rescores.

 You are correct when you say Chainmail wasn't made to deflect Crushing blows from both mace and sword, however, chain mail was intended, especially on plate armor, to prevent slashing and piercing strikes. Well made, riveted, chainmail armor was know to withstand bow drawn arrows and even unriveted chainmail could block most daggers and sword piercings. On plate mail armor, chain meshes were used to prevent stabbings to the armpits, neck, and other joints.

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Well, I do not know how long it takes to make Plate armor, but I think that there times are comparable once you have acquired the rescores.

 You are correct when you say Chainmail wasn't made to deflect Crushing blows from both mace and sword, however, chain mail was intended, especially on plate armor, to prevent slashing and piercing strikes. Well made, riveted, chainmail armor was know to withstand bow drawn arrows and even unriveted chainmail could block most daggers and sword piercings. On plate mail armor, chain meshes were used to prevent stabbings to the armpits, neck, and other joints.

Plate armor can take a good chunk of time depending on the fuel you are using and the type of steel you are making it out of because steel back then wasn't like what we have today, it was low-carbon steel with a bunch of slag in it. Also, if you hit in one area multiple times in battle, the chain in that area become weaker and weaker, making it easier to penetrate, the Saracens had made some techniques to make this happen against crusaders: it involved getting the opponent angry enough to charge, and you'd twirl around them while slashing at their back, and you'd do this over and over again until you got the person's spine well cut up, then you'd finish them off.I have tried this technique and it is actually easy to do, especially if you are a grappler or are using a scimitar. I also agree about the usage of the chainmail in the plate armor systems. They actually had made arming jackets, basically gambesons with chainmail sewn into the joints, so that the chainmail would be in where it was needed and taken away where it wasn't to reduce weight and increase protection. If they include arming jackets into the crafting of the armor (in game) for this revamp, then it'd be happy.

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The problem with speed modifiers is the usual scenario:

Player A is in plate armor and alone. Slow, lumbering.

Player B is in leather, with a bow.

What will happen now is that Player B will now continually run away from A, shoot an arrow, and rinse and repeat. Since A cannot run as fast as B, there won't be a way from him to catch him with a melee weapon no matter what he does. So now he has the options of switching out armor mid-combat, changing to a bow himself, or die.

The obvious win situation is to be in full plate with a bow and arrow. This way it doesn't matter, how slow and lumbering you are. You can't run this way, but if you don't intend to, you are perfectly fine.

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The obvious win situation is to be in full plate with a bow and arrow. This way it doesn't matter, how slow and lumbering you are. You can't run this way, but if you don't intend to, you are perfectly fine.

 

Or since this is a multiplayer situation, don't fight alone, bring friends (preferably with bows). =)

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Or since this is a multiplayer situation, don't fight alone, bring friends (preferably with bows). =)

 

 

Yeah, bring on the full skirmishes, knights, archers, foot soliders, pikemen....Yeah

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As far as pvp is concerned and no pun intended; unless the game is made for pvp from the get go it usually never works out in the end as far as balance. Also good pvp games have patch after patch after patch. Its a never ending balancing act.

 

I would like to see weight and most of all shields implemented for some sort of defense against those skeleton archers other than running away and hiding around a corner.

 

Also the crossbow and longbow were a threat to heavy armor not a regular field bow.

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The obvious win situation is to be in full plate with a bow and arrow. This way it doesn't matter, how slow and lumbering you are. You can't run this way, but if you don't intend to, you are perfectly fine.

 

The problem is, if you move slowly, you are an easy target. The Player B has the advantage not only because he can move quickly, he is harder to hit. Player B can afford to shot at Player A at a farther range because his actions are more predictable, where as Player A needs to be closer to shot him.This is why Player A needs a Crossbow, it shots faster and straighter, but takes time to reload.

 

However, Player A does indeed have the greater advantage overall, Player B would need to be a Skilled Dodger and Archer to kill Player A.

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I love most of the ideas but right now, I'm trying to come up with more things for pvp.

 

One idea i had was a fort system along the lines of Dark Age of Camelot.

 

One where we can have cannons, vehicles similar to this mod: http://ancientwarfare.wikispaces.com/

 

I like the idea of Gates that need to be knocked down.

 

This all of course would be made by the users of the server and not generated by the mod.

 

So have recipes to make all of the items like gates vehicles and more

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I'm not sure if I like your idea about combat. But i do agree about armor weight, shields, and crossbows. What i would like to see is more weapons (possibly a way to customize weapons). I would also like to introduce a couple new ideas attack speed, heavy and light attacks, and stamina. with those topics they would eliminate the hit-to-click combat system. OK how heavy and light attacks work is that heavy attacks do more damage but are slower and light attacks are faster but weaker. heavy attacks are done by holding the left mouse button for a little bit and light attacks are executed by tapping the left mouse button. With stamina depending on the type of attack could cost more or less. Another part of my idea of combat is dodging. How dodging works is however which way you want to dodge. In order to dodge from left to right you double click the A or D if you are doing a backwards dodge double click the S key if you are doing a forwards dodge you double click the W key with out holding it. I hope that this suggestion holds some weight.

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I have the whole crappy heap of stone boulders on me. I will be glad if I get a sling. I think, it's perfectly fit the stone age.

 

The fiber from spiders could be changed to a leather strips, I think.

 

Also, the projectile should inherit the characteristics of material its made from.

 

And it should have a chance to make enemy dazed or sufficiently break one piece of armor - it was a huge granite boulder, after all.

Edited by hindmost
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As for the war animals, don't think about horses only, camels and elephants are good too.

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As for the war animals, don't think about horses only, camels and elephants are good too.

 

War dogs.

Giant(for a dog, anyways) brutes bred for strength, speed, and used to flush out hiding enemies.

 

Or you can get boars, tie a bomb to em, piss them off then make them charge towards your enemies(who said they have to be willing?)

apparently, a charging boar is very hard to stop

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War dogs.

Giant(for a dog, anyways) brutes bred for strength, speed, and used to flush out hiding enemies.

 

Or you can get boars, tie a bomb to em, piss them off then make them charge towards your enemies(who said they have to be willing?)

apparently, a charging boar is very hard to stop

 

So is a charging elephant

or flaming pig.

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So is a charging elephant

or flaming pig.

 But boars are easier to handle and carry and feed then elephants

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Exotic war animals can get a little over the top. I think that if we ever have something like that, Bears would be at the only one I could see being  integrated (cuz the model already exists).  

 

I also would like to beta-test the idea of making a Combat Skills System. With the current EXP system only being used on health, what if we initiated a system that would have players choosing whether to spend EXP on being able to use advanced weapons or saving it for more health. 

 

For example, what if players began only being able to use a basic weapon (knife?) and if they attempted to use a more advance weapon (sword?) they would be crippled with a varying slowness in swing (Miners Fatigue?)  or when they used a ranged weapon (bow?) they would have low accuracy (idk how to do this). This would last until they spent the EXP on learning that skill.

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