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AllenWL

Mechanical Power. Doing things Better, Faster

90 posts in this topic

I mean, the ancient greeks had steam engines, not in the way you would think. They didn't really understand the concept and it was more a novel toy than  a power source.

 

The things like powered blacksmithing machinery are key in case you come up with a more vital use for them later. In a few threads there have been suggested metal arrow heads, metal parts for larger boats, and other large or complex metal parts. These would be much easier and believable if they were made from stamped metal. (a black smith can make around a dozen broad-head arrow heads an hour, a power hammer can make a dozen a strike [op for tfc but thats the IRL] )

 

I mean if you build a sawmill and a waterwheel to power it, even if you only get 10% more output from it they will pay for themselves rather quickly. Considering you are saving the metal for an axe and saw to cut the extra wood.

 

The idea is to make things valuable to build but expensive to do so, and make it so 100% automation is near impossible. If it was easy or too op you might as well be playing gregtech.

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I mean if you build a sawmill and a waterwheel to power it, even if you only get 10% more output from it they will pay for themselves rather quickly. Considering you are saving the metal for an axe and saw to cut the extra wood.

The problem with this is that there is no big demand for wood. Unless you are doing some self-imposed megaproject from wood.

 

For me, for machines to make sense, there must be reason why doing things manually is too inefficient. I really like the idea of quern which, while not creating a hard limit, creates a soft limit by adding tedium. You can either do things with quern or you can automate it by creating wind or water powered mill. Same things can be done with making planks, cloth or metal. For example wrought iron had to be worked for much longer than just few hits. You could make it so hammering things manually would take tons of time, while using powered hammer could really cut down on time needed.

 

This could also increase playability for multiplayer, because there would be simply too much work for single person to do. So different people would have to cooperate to get something usable.

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On servers ( the one I host anyway) wood is often in demand, typically the more exotic types. Machines would by nature get more out of each unit of material they are made of then using the materials to make hand tools. At the cost of needing to be powered, a sawmill would quickly obsolete most metal saws once you can provide consistent power. Much the reason why modern sawmills are run by machines, not drones of people with hand tools.

 

Could also add the functionality of recycling wooden products back into planks. 

 

 

Making smithing more difficult/ time consuming would be a great idea too. 

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Rather than making smiting more difficult, how about just make making double ingots, sheets, and double sheets more difficult and time consuming?

Because is you needed a powered hammer to smith efficiently, it would be a major setback in single player, and it could make the players just use bronze/copper tools(molds) until they make the p-hammer. Although, making smithing difficult really does sound appealing, as that could result in the emerging expert metalsmiths that would be in high demand in servers due to their abilities in metal crafting

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The problem with this is that there is no big demand for wood. Unless you are doing some self-imposed megaproject from wood..

Just realized, if mechanical things need lots of wood, which they most likely wood, making them would give you a big demand for wood.

Plus, you save metal that would have otherwise been turned into a saw.

 

Say, with the new food spoilage, do you think there could be a machine of some sort that automatically removes spoiled bits and cuts food?

Like, depending on the setting, it takes in large amounts of food, and cuts, removes rot, and if needed, combines them to make same-sized(size would depend on how many knife blades you put it[the area between knife blades. the more you put, the closer the blades, the smaller the food]) food bits that are fresh.

It would really save you from micro-managing food late-game. Just dump the lot in, then pick it up later

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say. if mechanical power gets implemented, what should include redstone ,how much, and why?

 

I'd like opinions on this.

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I love to think of redstone as control mechanism. For example valve would close/open based on redstone signal. The pressure gauge could output redstone signal based on how much pressure it detects. There is already way to build logic using redstone so that could be used to control all the automatization. But that would be only for control. Devices would need source of power to do something. For example door. You can trigger it using redstone, but it would still need source of power either mechanical or steam to open and close properly.

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Like, the redstone is the power button/remote and the power source is the wire/cable/whatever we call that.

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First of all , excuse me if i repeated a few things discused already , but this thread is very large and i can't remeber everything . :)

 

But this is what i suggest :

 

-Power sources in TFC can be easiliy implemented and be used for most of maintenance purposes and some eficiency purposes that are to teadious for players to do . Making mechanical power and steam  power work together in a way that both of them have the same usability .

 

 

 

-Examples how and what power and age progresion should enable :

  • Getting water to your mountain house (pump's and pipes)
  • Periodicly watering your crops (flood gate ????)
  • Keeping hot in the winter (piping hot water into your pool)
  • Keeping your house lit up (without the use of torches)
  • Keeping cool in the summer (piping underground water into your pool)
  • Making food decay less (underground water or use of ice or use of chest plating)
  • Bringing other building posiblities (materials)
  • Beter potery (decoration)
  • Boiling water (destilery)
  • Making building easier (elevators

-Suggestions and the suggestions imapcts (what and how i suggest some of the things) :

  • All machines should be able to get powerd by a hand cranck that isn't a special palcable item , but is built into them ,except the distilery .
  • Windmill , incorporates a windmill block power box which holdes a windmill blade , dpendant on teh type of season or weather the windmill will output different power .
  • Horse wheel , a contraption that is a multyblock structure , it incorporates a fence on the top side of the horse whell foundation block , and a horse (or animal) leashed to the fence , depending on the size of the animal the horse wheel will give more or less power . (the power should be drained using an axel on the botom of the foundation block)
  • Steam , evaporated water , can be obtained by making a fire under a water block , you gain 2 steam blocks per water block , steam is collected in a pipe which is conected to a powered pump , steam can be obtained from hot spirngs aswell , but hot springs give alot less steam , steam can be stored in plated barrels , depending on the tier of the plates steam will cool down quicker or slower .
  • Pump , pumpes liquids or gases , if it is powered , throught one side and out the other side into another pipe or directly outside .
  • Pipes , alow the movement of liquids or gases throught them , the speed on which they move liquids or gases is determined by the amount of power they are receiving from the pump .
  • Distilery , gives the ability to destil sea water into regular water using fire (this proces shouldn't yeald salt)
  • Sawmill , increases the production of wood planks (behaves like a uncrafting table for wood) and alows wood items to be turned back into planks .
  • Grinding stone , just like the one which is already implemented but with the ability to be automaed using power from the water wheel , horse wheel or windmill .
  • Plating (preservation) , alows the use of plates on pipes and chests , different types of plates respectivley to the metal or aloy tier should give reduced food spoilage for chests and alows the heat isolation of the fluids inside the pipes and their pressure resistance to be higher respectivley by metal or aloy tier
  • Sistem upgrading , the machines should be createable with the lowest tier metals in the game in combination with wood and stone , and can be upgraded by alowing them to be created out of higher tier metals (ultimatley red or blue steel) , the eficency should increase to the machines respective atributes , making a pump be able to use a same or lower metal pipe type , or making a sawmill be able to create sticks from wood ... , but the upgrades should not increase the speed or amount of items gotten from a proces that is possible without the machines (excepting the saw wich will give 4 more planks from a log , but will remain that way no mater the upgrades)
  • Steam wheel , is a way to turn steam into mechanical power , looks like a watter wheel but does not require water to run , can be made into all 3 sizes just like a watter wheel
  • Moving power , can be possible by moving steam throught pipes and then converting it by the help of a steam wheel , or it can be moved to a short distance using a mechanic of axels/shafts and gears just like the thread creator suggested .
  • Water wheel , same mechanic as the thread creator sugested , but it can have different water wheel sizes from 1-3 , for aestethics .

That is what i think should be added or changed ....

 

 

 

 

-This would ensentialy make playing less teadious given time , giving you more time later in the game to prosper after adventuring .

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So, I got an idea for how we might have different 'power', and I'd like to see what people think of it.

 

Ok, there should be 4 strengths of mechanical power, for convenience, lets call it weak, mild, moderate, and strong.

 

Hand-cranks will give weak power, water and wind mills mild power, horse wheels moderate power, and steam strong power.

There would be 4 types of gears and axles for each power.

The four types would be wood, bronze, iron, and steel(or maybe black steel?)

 

All axles and gears can power the same things.

The difference is axles and gears cannot power other axles or gears that are weaker than it.

So a steel gear/axle cannot power a bronze gear/axle.

However, a axle/gear of lower tier will be able to power a gear/axle of higher tier.

 

the higher the tier of axle/gear, the longer you can connect them, and the faster they transmit power.

Wood will only be able to connect up to four axles/gears at a time, and take 4 ticks to transmit power.

Bronze can connect up to eight, and takes 3 ticks

Iron connects up to twelve, and takes 3 ticks,

And steel connects up to sixteen, and takes 0.5 ticks

 

If you connect too much, the axle/gear will not be powered.

If you connect a low-tier axle/gear to a higher tiered one, it will break.

 

A axle will take one gear, two jute fibers, and six planks to craft, and will connect front and back, but not at 90degree angles.

A gear will be made on an anvil for 4 gears per ingot(wooden ones are crafted with sticks and planks in a + shape), and be only placeable on blocks. It will connect to axles in front of it, or other gears next to or at 90 degree angles from it.(if this is too complicated, I will post a picture of what I mean)

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I want mechanical power. I think it should fallow the existing technology tree, so wind mills and water mills need bronze and steam  needs steel.

The main reason for me would be to make menial tasks like pumping bellows a lot easier.. 

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The concept is that the machines would allow things to be done, and parts made with stronger materials would let the builder run more powerful things. a steel pipe can carry more steam than a bronze or lead one.

 

With wood or T1 metals a system should be limited to very low power, but as you work your way up the material tree you start to worry more about generating power than transferring and using it

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Personally, if steam power is added (which I am totally in favor of, provided the mods continue with their wonderful ways of not adding stupid solve-all-the-problem blocks) I would like to see all of it come AFTER iron. I want more to do once I get a blast furnace.  :P

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steam wouldn't come into its own until after iron and steel are used in the system. mostly due to heat limitations of anything made from the cast-able metals. using a low cost material would help with running a low power system, like a mill to grind grain. it doesn't really need the volume of steam to necessitate a high pressure iron pipe to carry  the power.

 

The machinery would all be intended for a more "end game" scenario. sort of a "what to do with all this metal" kinda deal.

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I can only dream on all the devices that could be add to the game with the inclusion of the water wheel and the wind mill.

The first obvious thing is mechanical power to grind grains and pump the bellows.

I specially Like the idea of a Water pump. We are so pressed by the necessity of water that by the time we have the red steel bucket is kind of to late. We Have a beautiful base practically build inside the lake or river.

So having the water pump in the mid game so is easy to move the base is a must.

I don't think  the water pump should replaced the red bucket making it possible for people to live in the desert.

If you want to go there you should need to move water using a pump and aqueducts. 

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Steam looks like a long shot at this point guys, at least for TFC itself. Cross-overs with other mods possible, so there's that.

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Steam looks like a long shot at this point guys, at least for TFC itself. Cross-overs with other mods possible, so there's that.

I am legitimately heartbroken.

 

All these fantasies...

Coal coke production

Steel boilers

pipes

valves

powered mills/bellows/train engines

steam powered liquid pumps

fracking oil (pumping steam into the ground near bituminous coal veins and sucking it up with a steam powered liquid pump&pipes)

oil refineries

etc etc...

being dashed to pieces :'( but dunk... ;_;

 

wh..why?

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Mostly due to steam power being utilized over a century after the "time period" of TFC, however basic pneumatics and hydraulics were used by the ancient Greeks, Romans and Egyptians. however having basic stirling engines and other means

 

Something along this line;    http://mi.eng.cam.ac.uk/IALego/steam_files/steam_1.jpg

 

if included should be the pinnacle of technology, but should be very resource demanding and expensive to build.

 

the previously discussed methods of storing power; the gravity batteries are still the most plausible way of generating smooth power and storing it in a ready to use state.

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Do you know what is ironic about this?

 

Given that Steve(s) goes from Stone age, to tin age, to copper age, to bronze age, to iron age, to steel age

 

The only way this is any way believable is that Steve(s) already knew what (s)he(s) needed to do

 

(S)Hes from the future or somehow warped into this dimension from the real world

 

Steam power being tacked on afterword is believable

 

Storing mechanical power (i.e. mechanical batteries) for later use is a different story. Thats really modern. Of course Steve(s) could be from farther in the future from where we are, but given that the future storyline wouldn't be accepted by Bioxx in the 1st place, maybe that isn't relevant

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Steam power isn't happening because I couldn't come up with legit ways to use it. Things in TFC don't come cheap... The pipes were shaping up to be ~1 sheet per unit, so it would get expensive pretty fast, not to mention managing the fuel in the furnace. I couldn't come up with a solid way to make it all worth it. Steam engines are good at rotating things, and since blocks are stationary, that probably means operating a wheel, conveyor belt or something of that nature.

 

Implementing THAT would mean adding water wheels or wind wheels, and then we have to differentiate between what you can't do with those that you CAN with steam power.

 

Steam power was looking like the end-game content of a complex feature that didn't exist yet.

 

Bioxx's original design for TFC has it working with other mods like railcraft or some other similar mod, with TFC operating as the base game and the other mods supplying things to build and do with its resources. In that world, TFC has none of it's own end-game content, and so steam power had to go.

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Think about it. Fundamentally all forms of mechanical engines really only differ in how much power they output and how they are powered.

 

Windmills require wind (now how exactly one would model wind is a different story) and creates so much ouput

 

A waterwheel requires flowing water and creates so much output

 

Combustion engines require combustible fuel and creates so much output

 

And application examples are readily availible in history. You wouldn't use windmills or water wheels for a mine water pump would you?

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And application examples are readily availible in history. You wouldn't use windmills or water wheels for a mine water pump would you?

Actually yes I would. Water wheels were first used to pump water.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5031932_history-water-pumps.html

Water pumps have been existent since 3000 B.C. Early pumps were made with water wheels and chutes, and used animals to provide the energy to move the wheels.

  • The Mesopotamians were responsible for the first pump around 3000 B.C. They used a wooden lever next to the water bank, with a counterweight on one end and a bucket on the other. When the pole was pushed down, the counterweight brought the bucket back up and it emptied into a trough.

    500 B.C.

  • Three pumps were invented around 500 B.C. They included the waterwheel with pots attached, a waterwheel with compartments for the water, and a bucket chain, which was a line that ran over a pulley with buckets attached.

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Just so you know, translating your examples into minecraft would be moving buckets of water

 

You do that in TFC by hand. And only when you get your magical red steel buckets

 

A water pump people want move streams of water.

 

On second thought however, the example I cited was invalid anyway as it only made sense in Minecraft with finite water mods

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Mechanical power satisfies the need for processes to happen at a more industrial scale: grinding grain into flour for hundreds or thousands of mouths. Sawing the planks to build homes for your people. Hauling the tonnes of ore from your mine.

 

We just don't have the demand for the expense required. You don't NEED a huge wind-powered milling machine when you can just click a quern a few times and get all the flour you can use.

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