Changes in quern recipes

[PaoloEmilio 53]

Hello guys I come here with another one of an idea.

 

I've noticed two things in the mod. First, I think there is too few grain required to make bread, considering each grain is equivalent to each bread and each grain item contains 5 seeds as shown in the illustration. What about each 5 grains make 1 flour, if there is less than 5 grains, nothing happens, just durability of the handstone is lost, but still change the recipe of dough, so that three flours, 1 bucket = 1 dough, that is cooked as 1 bread. That way it's more believable, right? That way at least 75 seeds are needed to make the bread. (Not realistic, but believable )

 

Second of all, isn't it odd that there is soo much graphite and kaolinite needed for 1 fireclay? It should be like, each kaolinite girahves 5 powder, each graphite 5 powder too. Because, I don't think that metric ton of powder is needed compared with the clay used, sincerely, considering each piece of kaolinite/graphite only gives 1 powder, I would suppose there is a lot of powder in there.

[Kereminde 5]

The raw wheat/oat/etc doesn't hold that much seeds, from what I recall. What it is is: 1 Cereal Grain > 1 Usable Grain > 1 Seed. or 1 Flour.

 

So you're not getting more seeds than usable grain, and it currently takes 2 equivalent seeds to make a loaf of bread. (Along with a bucket of water, and the quern, meaning you have enough metal for four tools at the least.) I think that makes bread rather difficult until you get a nice solid base of metal and stone (for the used quern handstone). This said, upping it to three flour instead of two flour wouldn't strike me as unreasonable, just makes it more a task of attrition of tools to get your bread making on. We could always make it require an egg, but then that would require chickens . . . and not all "bread" types use egg. I think tortillas just use flour or cornmeal, water, and lard (for flour tortillas, not corn). 

 

(And having double checked that, yes. Corn tortillas use just nixtamal (corn, water, slaked lime) and some water worked out. Flour uses just flour, lard, water, and salt to taste. Thank you Alton Brown.)

 

As for believability, I think 75 grain for one loaf is well outside believable, since one sheaf of cereal grains is the equivalent of one square meter of crop having been harvested.

[Kazahied 42]

He was going down the logic of how many seeds you get from each set of grain. With rice I get around 4-6 grain per plant per harvest. This processes down to the point where i only need to save about 20% of my harvest for replanting, leaving me with tons of grain for sake and bread. (mostly sake) I only use a 4x4 plot of plants, which in minecraft terms is about 16^2 meters. And we can feed a village of 12. while getting ludicrously drunk on the excess.By nerfing grain down a bit it wouldnt hurt and may even allow the easier application of a farmer class in many servers. But it still should be do able in single-player.

[Kereminde 5]

I can get that, but at the same time this to require more grain feels like it goes from feeding a village of twelve (and having grain left to do alcohol of your choice) goes to that same field only producing enough for part of a loaf of bread (64/75), and nothing left to create drink OR feed animals. (Let's not forget, you do feed grain to animals, don't you?)

 

Also, since I keep being reminded the game is balanced for multiplayer, what we're looking at is perhaps a small group of people sharing the harvest and potentially needing a lot of bread to keep up energy for mining, or exploring. If we tinker with the amount of grain needed for bread, we are increasing the amount of field needed to be sustainable, not to mention the crop rotation problem of having to do different grains just to keep the soil workable.

 

Really the formula of 75 grain for one loaf of bread is what seems over-shooting the goal for me. I am not a farmer, only a basic cook, but it seems like to be unrealistic and unbelievable to have the harvest of 20 square meters be required in order to bake one loaf of bread. If you must adjust something, perhaps what should be adjusted is the yield of the crop? Though again, we run into the problem of multiplayer requiring more food in progress to sustain and not constantly/consistently starve or clear massive swaths of land to feed four people routinely enough to not have a famine.

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

Hello guys I come here with another one of an idea.

 

I've noticed two things in the mod. First, I think there is too few grain required to make bread, considering each grain is equivalent to each bread and each grain item contains 5 seeds as shown in the illustration. What about each 5 grains make 1 flour, if there is less than 5 grains, nothing happens, just durability of the handstone is lost, but still change the recipe of dough, so that three flours, 1 bucket = 1 dough, that is cooked as 1 bread. That way it's more believable, right? That way at least 75 seeds are needed to make the bread. (Not realistic, but believable )

 

Second of all, isn't it odd that there is soo much graphite and kaolinite needed for 1 fireclay? It should be like, each kaolinite girahves 5 powder, each graphite 5 powder too. Because, I don't think that metric ton of powder is needed compared with the clay used, sincerely, considering each piece of kaolinite/graphite only gives 1 powder, I would suppose there is a lot of powder in there.

 

yeah, lets count the number of seeds that can be represented in a 16x16 pixel image.

 

if you wanna get technical about it, google tells me 35 wheat seeds / sq foot is an adequate planting rate. Since one wheat grain converts to one wheat seed bag, which plants 1 sq metre, we can scale up the number of seeds to about 377 seeds.

 

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Wheat/seedrate.html

[PaoloEmilio 53]

yeah, lets count the number of seeds that can be represented in a 16x16 pixel image.

 

if you wanna get technical about it, google tells me 35 wheat seeds / sq foot is an adequate planting rate. Since one wheat grain converts to one wheat seed bag, which plants 1 sq metre, we can scale up the number of seeds to about 377 seeds.

 

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Wheat/seedrate.html

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Well, anyways, to make a bread you must grind around 2000 wheat seeds, and ingame I find too easy to make bread. At the point that to fill a whole city only a small field is needed.

[Kazahied 42]

Just for testing we planted a single harvest of around half a sq kilometer. The resulting grain has lasted us for over 2 years in game. Our town had increased in population from 12 to 17 and we still had plenty. We still have 2 double chests full of bread.

 

 

Rice op

[Kereminde 5]

Solution seems to be more scaling back the change from "sheaf of grains" to "usable grain" then, rather than increasing the amount required for bread making?

[turtletechy 37]

Well, why don't we just have spoilage so that you have to make new food occasionally? I'd also like to see beer provide some nutrition to the player (it was a good way to preserve grain). Also, grain and other harvested foods should spoil, if not prepared in a way that preserves them. 

[PaoloEmilio 53]

Well, why don't we just have spoilage so that you have to make new food occasionally? I'd also like to see beer provide some nutrition to the player (it was a good way to preserve grain). Also, grain and other harvested foods should spoil, if not prepared in a way that preserves them. 

--

That isn't a good idea, as it would lag a lot considering each tick something rots. And, what about each batch of cereal gives two grains and those two are like before, 5 for 1 flour, so that 15 handfuls of grain per bread?

[transcengopher 349]

--

Well, anyways, to make a bread you must grind around 2000 wheat seeds, and ingame I find too easy to make bread. At the point that to fill a whole city only a small field is needed.

So, if making bread will be harder, why would I make it and not breed some pigs instead?

[Kereminde 5]

So, if making bread will be harder, why would I make it and not breed some pigs instead?

 

Because I have *yet* to get another pig in my save and it's now Late Winter after a fresh start. Livestock is really quite rare, and the chances of finding a male and a female is kinda a limiting factor.

[transcengopher 349]

Because I have *yet* to get another pig in my save and it's now Late Winter after a fresh start. Livestock is really quite rare, and the chances of finding a male and a female is kinda a limiting factor.

Really? I haven't once had a problem finding meat-producing animals to breed. Leading them where need be - yes, that's a problem, all minecraft livestock suffers a heavy form of ADHD. And there's already addons that take care of this last thing.

[Kereminde 5]

I should now correct myself, I have four pigs. ALL are male. So still no breeding.

 

As for the ADHD thing? TFC seems better than vanilla for how they follow so long as you don't sprint and check now and then for them. Trying to lead a herd is not advisable as they get in each others' ways.

[PaoloEmilio 53]

Well, if bread is harder to make it's true only breeding would be worth it... Well, then what about limiting the growth of grains? That would be a good idea!

[Kereminde 5]

I'm just thinking hitting the nerf bat on the transition from "Wheat" to "Wheat Grain" (where you use a knife to separate the Straw and Grain).

[Omicron 62]

I don't think there's any particular need to nerf grains... It's not like other crops are that much worse. Try a field of greenbeans half a square kilometer in size - I bet they would still be eating from that as well now, and they wouldn't have had any need to even process the harvest. You get about four beans per plant after replanting, compared to about 3 grains per plant after replanting. Each bean is a 1-star meal, and each grain (after baking into bread) a 2-star meal. So within some margin of error for the rounded star values, a bean plant gives you ~4 stars of food and a grain plant gives you ~6 stars.

 

Now take into account that greenbeans have a "fast" growth speed, while grains are "slow" to "very slow", and suddenly the OP grains are not looking quite as OP anymore. Many plants give comparable yields once you look at the big picture, it's just that the player actually only needs very little food (a day's worth of heavy labor in the mines? Here, eat one fried egg and you're fine!)

 

Ultimately what should be counted is the amount of food stars provided by one plant over the course of one year (assuming infinite soil nutrients). And for non-hardy plants, one year would be defined as 9-10 months because it can't grow during winter, while the hardy ones get the full 12 months. Then you need to keep in mind that infinite nutrient scenarios will overvalue plants with long growth cycles, since in actual gameplay they will run out of nutrient before finishing a growth cycle and therefore take longer than calculated to mature. As you can see, that gets very complicated to balance very quickly. And we haven't even started factoring in secondary uses/processing and tech level dependencies for products yet...

 

EDIT: If anything needs to be nerfed about grains, it's the fact that animal breeding runs off of the the processed grains. A single harvested plant allows you to breed two pairs of pigs. This will result in an average of 20 offspring, which once grown will each yield an average of 15 porkchops each (more if you breed for size) with a three-star food value. So we're looking at 900 stars food value from one single plant. Plus 20 hides, plus (currently useless) bones. If unprocessed wheat/oat/barley/rye was used, you'd need two plants for one breeding pair, cutting the multiplier by four and ending up with ~225 food stars and 5 hides per plant invested. Which is still very much worth it, but not quite as crazy anymore.

[AllenWL 186]

I don't think there's any particular need to nerf grains... It's not like other crops are that much worse. Try a field of greenbeans half a square kilometer in size - I bet they would still be eating from that as well now, and they wouldn't have had any need to even process the harvest. You get about four beans per plant after replanting, compared to about 3 grains per plant after replanting. Each bean is a 1-star meal, and each grain (after baking into bread) a 2-star meal. So within some margin of error for the rounded star values, a bean plant gives you ~4 stars of food and a grain plant gives you ~6 stars.

 

Now take into account that greenbeans have a "fast" growth speed, while grains are "slow" to "very slow", and suddenly the OP grains are not looking quite as OP anymore.

 

Ultimately what should be counted is the amount of food stars provided by one plant over the course of one year (assuming infinite soil nutrients). And for non-hardy plants, one year would be defined as 9-10 months because it can't grow during winter, while the hardy ones get the full 12 months. Then you need to keep in mind that infinite nutrient scenarios will overvalue plants with long growth cycles, since in actual gameplay they will run out of nutrient before finishing a growth cycle and therefore take longer than calculated to mature. As you can see, that gets very complicated to balance very quickly. And we haven't even started factoring in secondary uses/processing and tech level dependencies for products yet...

 

But you have to factor in the fact that

1. Grain can be used to breed animals

and

2. time it takes to eat food.

 

I can grow grain, breed a few sheep, and get more mutton than I need, and mutton fills up my hunger in 1~2 pieces.

While green beans could get me more hunger in shorter time, I'd rather not spend half my day munching on green beans, when with meat, or bread, It takes much less time to get full

[Omicron 62]

Yes, I did consider breeding, see my edit. That's worth a nerf, but on the breeding side, not the grain processing side.

 

And wow, you must have a really short day/night cycle in your game if it takes you half a day to consume the ca. 3 beans it takes to restore an entire day's worth of hunger

[Juan Vino 8]

Just for testing we planted a single harvest of around half a sq kilometer. The resulting grain has lasted us for over 2 years in game. Our town had increased in population from 12 to 17 and we still had plenty. We still have 2 double chests full of bread.

 

 

Rice op

 

How the hell do you guys have the time to do that? <.< I made a stack of each bread possible and took me a looong time, and it was  very, VERY boring, lol.

[Kazahied 42]

Not very difficult when we had 5 people harvesting and grinding.