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Bioxx

Discussion thread for the Combat Revamp

107 posts in this topic

Even crossbows have little chance against full plate, but if you have a good archer that can find a gap in the armor then the warrior is dead or incapacitated in 1.

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Rather then making them difficult to obtain, you could make them stack in smaller stacks, Meaning if you where defending, you would have allot, as an attacker, you might have supply carts, but they could be taken by scouts sent out from keep (I primarily play Faction servers lol)

EDIT:

Also, Having done some archery IRL, Making it more difficult would be realistic, but more difficult in a realistic way wouldn't be easy. The main reason you miss is by not consistently pulling the string back far enough/at the right angle. You could make it so the more you use one the better you get?

Being hard to obtain isn't an artificial, alien construct I'm applying to them, they'd be hard to obtain because they're METAL. They're metal because that fits with the rest of the system: you wouldn't attack a guy in plate armour with a stone axe, so why attack him with stone arrows?

Daggers = x5 damage in the back would be cool.

Unless by some unfortunate design your armour was made without any protection on your back, there's no real reason that being attacked there would cause a significant difference in damage. Even if you try to argue that an unsuspected attack isn't blocked, I doubt any blocking you could do would reduce the dealt damage by a factor of 5.
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The problem with speed modifiers is the usual scenario:

Player A is in plate armor and alone. Slow, lumbering.

Player B is in leather, with a bow.

What will happen now is that Player B will now continually run away from A, shoot an arrow, and rinse and repeat. Since A cannot run as fast as B, there won't be a way from him to catch him with a melee weapon no matter what he does. So now he has the options of switching out armor mid-combat, changing to a bow himself, or die.

1 word : Shield !

And also he would have a advantage over the archer , the archer would run out of arows before his armour would die ,he would take of the armor , and run to stab him with his sword !

Any one ideas for shileds?

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1 word : Shield !

And also he would have a advantage over the archer , the archer would run out of arows before his armour would die ,he would take of the armor , and run to stab him with his sword !

Any one ideas for shileds?

Shields would be a good compromise: If plate is too powerful in defense that archery becomes non-viable, you end up with everyone wearing plate and melee again. It is a balancing act. Metal arrow-heads is a good idea, of course, but I suspect an ingot will make a stack of arrows (whatever a stack ends up being: I suspect around 16 or 24). If it is too expensive, again, people will just not make arrows (tho, if they are potentially reuseable like javelins, that might be offset.)

I also really really want to see metal-tipped javelins. Alternatively: If they break, let them drop their javelin/arrow heads as an item: That way you can run out of arrows without it bankrupting you. It also would make metal tipped archery weapons viable for hunting. It can even combine the ideas: Each arrow/javelin fired has a chance of being "lost". If not lost, it has a chance of breaking and dropping an arrow/javelin head which can then be recrafted (though perhaps not by just combining with a stick, but at a carpenter table with a proper shaft made from sticks)

Of course that would open up a whole new thing with arrows and javelins being dependant on what wood had been used to craft them, what feathers they use for fledging. Not even to mention different tiers of bows depending on what wood they have been crafted from, etc.

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1 word : Shield !

And also he would have a advantage over the archer , the archer would run out of arows before his armour would die ,he would take of the armor , and run to stab him with his sword !

Any one ideas for shileds?

I believe shields should be made out of wood for the shield board, metal for the nails and edging, and leather for the strap, kite shields would be much larger than normal shields, providing defense over anything below the neck, but would be fragile to maces, hammers and piercing blades.
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Unless by some unfortunate design your armour was made without any protection on your back, there's no real reason that being attacked there would cause a significant difference in damage. Even if you try to argue that an unsuspected attack isn't blocked, I doubt any blocking you could do would reduce the dealt damage by a factor of 5.

I may have forgot to mention it to be a sneak attack, Would be difficult to add to MC, but if your undetected, that gap just above the chest plate showing the neck is free for the taking.

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Damage Types

I realize IRL piercing and slashing can be very different in their effect on armor...

But many/most swords & knives can plausibly do piercing or slashing damage depending on how you wield them. Since i suspect that minecraft won't let you non-clunkily do different piercing and slashing strikes, nor different animations if some weapons are designated "piercing" weapons -- the distinction between piercing and slashing would seem doomed to become more or less an arbitrary stat the player must remember, with little obvious connection to the game as experienced.

Seems to me piercing and slashing could be combined. "Blunt" damage and "Sharp" damage?

Hit Locations

This mechanic is great in some contexts, but I'm kinda confused as to how this will fit into the minecraft engine. The smart warrior will often get into positions where he's attacking the zombie/skeleton's feet/legs. It would be odd the mob's helmet protected him from that.

But more importantly why should the player care? Is a hit arm going to be any different from a hit foot, besides which armor bonus is applied? Will the hit location matter if the player is completely armored with the same quality armor?

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The problem with speed modifiers is the usual scenario:

Player A is in plate armor and alone. Slow, lumbering.

Player B is in leather, with a bow.

What will happen now is that Player B will now continually run away from A, shoot an arrow, and rinse and repeat. Since A cannot run as fast as B, there won't be a way from him to catch him with a melee weapon no matter what he does. So now he has the options of switching out armor mid-combat, changing to a bow himself, or die.

Just because you wear plate armor doesn't mean you can't use a bow. So in THIS scenario, player A pulls out a bow and arrow and shoots player B in his forehead. Rinse, repeat. Lol.

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Shields where traditionally Solid Oak, Easy to obtain with some basic tools and the right sort of tree, but VERY heavy. Later shields would be thinner oak/pine ect... with metal plating, and then thick metal - but nowhere near as thick as the oak, slightly lighter though.

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As for Skills factoring into combat: There is the believability aspect and the game aspect to be considered.

Skills that depend only on grinding is the main reason I personally am disgusted with most MMORPGs. I find nothing rewarding about killing 2000 rats for the next level, be it character or "Hunting"-skill. Especially if the only input the game demands from me is "click enemy, wait, rinse, repeat."

That said, the Smithing system for instance provides a good example for a more "skill-based" Skill system. As it is now the closer I get to the marker, the better the worked item. It would be easy to also increase the amount of bonus to one's skill based on how good the item had been completed. That would allow experienced _players_ to level up quicker.

How would that translate to the combat however? Established long time players already have the advantage: They have the better armor, the better swords and maces. How can one - without Hitlocations - factor the player skill into the character skill progression?

One idea is to 'penalize' button-mashing and the odd bunny-jumping that Minecraft combat tends to end up as. With similar mechanics of the bowdraw, charging up swings and blocks might become a viable alternative to just hitting Player A repeatedly. If the only hit locations are also 'front' and 'back' blocking only becomes viable if one is not facing two opponents, as one could circle around.

That said, skills should increase the fastest not for each hit, but for well placed, charged up hits. Likewise, for blocks. (What the benefits of a charged up block is might be fun to determine: Perhaps a moment of unable to attack again for the blocked player/mob?)

Additionally, charged up shots should have a higher percentage to penetrate and/or negate armor (or perhaps strike the least protected hit location(s)?) Basically it are stronger, well placed blows instead of randomly plinking away at armor.

Your initial point of having to kill 2000 rats does have merit. However, ask a pest control specialist if they are better at killing rats after working in the field for a year than they were on their first day on the job. Without being able to design a gameplay mechanic for every single possibly intricacy of a specific set of actions, such as smithing or combat, the player should have some way of simulating the fact that you do tend to get just plain better at something with practice. Skills are a system of feedback for things that we can't present to the player in any other way.

As to your point of long time players already having an advantage due to better armor, its not that simple. Say we have a server with two factions. Faction A has 10 veterans and Steel Armor, Faction B has 5 veterans and Steel Armor. Naturally you'd expect Faction A to win. However, Faction B does some recruiting and brings in 5 newbies and hands them free steel armor to join them. You now

have 10v10 battles occurring in which the veterans have 0 advantage, whereas the conscripts would be terrible soldiers to begin with just like they have been since time immemorial. The only way to simulate this would be to give the veterans a way to distinguish themselves.

However I do not believe that the skills should provide enough of a difference to where the conscripts are completely unable to kill the veterans.

To make this more interesting Have Plate slightly slower then normal, Mail normal, and no armor/leather slightly faster, Walking and running in MC is already slow enough :P

Possibly. The merits to this are still being debated. Potentially a combat only stamina system would complement this well. As mentioned earlier, the leather armor archer is an issue but I've seen it handled quit well in games like War of the Roses. Archers can still kick some ass but swords cut through them like butter.

also, Do you plan to add magic Bioxx? And I mean done properly, not that basic fireball, shock ect... mechanic, properly balanced and thought threw.

I'll give more of an ambiguous answer than dunk. Maybe. I've stated it many times by now, but magic is not verboten in TFC. It depends entirely on how it is implemented. That said, I don't know that I'd want to incorporate it into combat. I think I would enjoy a magic system better that is more like mystical experimentation for the good or bad of the world. (Don't hold me to this, I'm just theorizing on the fly)
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I'll give more of an ambiguous answer than dunk. Maybe. I've stated it many times by now, but magic is not verboten in TFC. It depends entirely on how it is implemented. That said, I don't know that I'd want to incorporate it into combat. I think I would enjoy a magic system better that is more like mystical experimentation for the good or bad of the world. (Don't hold me to this, I'm just theorizing on the fly)

I like the sound of this - I've always though magic was something that required skill and reasearch to use - allot of games, films and books ruin it by making it seem off hand and easy, you simply pick up a staff or read a magic book and at most spend 20 mins practicing before being a super warrior -_-

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Shields where traditionally Solid Oak, Easy to obtain with some basic tools and the right sort of tree, but VERY heavy. Later shields would be thinner oak/pine ect... with metal plating, and then thick metal - but nowhere near as thick as the oak, slightly lighter though.

So what you are saying is that someone forgot to tell the zulu tribe that their shields were supposed to be made of oak? There were more areas of the world using different types of weapons and armor than Europe and asia.

Since TFC is gearing towards the early development of the player, these types of weapons and armor (stone, wood, leather and bone), should be more varied than just metals and woods.

Indeed Wooden shields rock, but until you figure out your place in the metal working field, how are you going to hold the boards of wood together effectively without tacks, nails, or metal bands?

Leather/bamboo shields (depending on the locale) should be a good starter (if shields are going to be implemented). And even if they are not, leather armor and leather and bone armor is a good start too.

This adds a lot of variation for not just end-game items, but also for beginning.

With the implementation of differing attack types (which weapons could theoretically have using the MODE option that tools have), you can make whatever type of armor (again) fits your play style.

This is just an opinion, but going from no shield straight to wood and metal shields just kinda feels like an important step in the discovery phase is skipped.

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So what you are saying is that someone forgot to tell the zulu tribe that their shields were supposed to be made of oak? There were more areas of the world using different types of weapons and armor than Europe and asia.

Since TFC is gearing towards the early development of the player, these types of weapons and armor (stone, wood, leather and bone), should be more varied than just metals and woods.

Indeed Wooden shields rock, but until you figure out your place in the metal working field, how are you going to hold the boards of wood together effectively without tacks, nails, or metal bands?

Leather/bamboo shields (depending on the locale) should be a good starter (if shields are going to be implemented). And even if they are not, leather armor and leather and bone armor is a good start too.

This adds a lot of variation for not just end-game items, but also for beginning.

With the implementation of differing attack types (which weapons could theoretically have using the MODE option that tools have), you can make whatever type of armor (again) fits your play style.

This is just an opinion, but going from no shield straight to wood and metal shields just kinda feels like an important step in the discovery phase is skipped.

ok, Slight oversight on my part there, however a Zulu shield at a guess was more for whacking spears ect sideways opening for an attack, the hide itself offered little protection, similar to the Highlanders techniques.

It seems to me like having a duel wielding mechanic is the way to go also.

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Also let us not just worry about other players , but about animals , since they will fight back .

Again the shield .... boar charging against you because you want its meat ? Bash it with a shield to protect you're priceles armour from getting hurt or you're leg breaking !

What about this , for a second use of a shield ! But a player must be abble to chose betwen shield and bow ! *The bow or shield could be placed in a side slot made for them , the arows could have a quiver , alowing you to only have that much arows , maybe even alowing multyple arows to be mixed together and chosable which one will be fired ?

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OOOOOH! You did it now Bioxx. You opened up the floodgates! LMAO!!!!

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Also let us not just worry about other players , but about animals , since they will fight back .

Again the shield .... boar charging against you because you want its meat ? Bash it with a shield to protect you're priceles armour from getting hurt or you're leg breaking !

What about this , for a second use of a shield ! But a player must be abble to chose betwen shield and bow ! *The bow or shield could be placed in a side slot made for them , the arows could have a quiver , alowing you to only have that much arows , maybe even alowing multyple arows to be mixed together and chosable which one will be fired ?

I would image a boar would be difficult to stop with anything but a boar spear.

I like the idea of quivers, could allow for say shift clicking an arrow storage to automatically refill it or something like that, Means big wars you can have lots of arrows without inventory hassle, and while hunting you only have a few.

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Well not stoping but protecting , i am not talking about the boar being knocked out but by decreasing the damage !

Also could a boar push a player around , when it charges in TFC ? Maybe if the player is next to a mountain or a ravine or a hole , it could be fatal ! Animals pushing you off the cliff what ya' think?

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Native American:

War Shield:

War Shields were made to be used as a means of defence on horseback only and were therefore found as a defensive weapon amongst the Great Plains Indians. The war shields were made from the skin of a buffalo’s neck which had been smoked and hardened with glue extracted from the hoofs of the bison. The more skins used in making the war shields, the better protection they would offer. The war shields were arrow proof and according to George Catlin

“…would glance off a rifle shot with perfect effect by being turned obliquely, which they do with great skill.”

Because the war shields were used on horseback they were small measuring 20-24 inches in diameter and light in weight, similar to those used by the Ancient Roman cavalry. The war shields were not meant to shield the body as such, they were mainly used as arrow deflectors but could also provide protection against the Spear of an enemy. The circular, hide, war shield illustrated in the following picture measured 20 inches (50cm) in diameter and is edged with red flannel, with feathers, beads, fur and a piece of human scalp attached. The war shield belonged to a Comanche warrior and is believed to have been taken in a battle with the Osage tribe.

Medicine Shield (thought for magic uses?)

Medicine Shields were sacred objects decorated with symbolic designs that reflected the personal vision and “medicine” or spirit-guided inherent power of Native American warriors. Medicine shields were not the kind that were used in battles – but every warrior had a medicine shield. He would not use this shield for protection during battles, however, he might still carry his medicine shield with him attaching it to his horse in order to gain spiritual protection. The medicine shields had specific spiritual meaning to each warrior and were created following the rite of passage called a Vision Quest. A Vision Quest was undertaken to seek and identify a Power Animal to help them as a spiritual guide to walk through different stages of life for the purpose of teaching and guiding them, and in some instances protecting them. Following the Vision Quest the young Indian would meet with the Medicine Man who would interpret his dreams and this interpretation would then be transferred onto the shield in the form of sacred symbols and depictions of the spirit guide. Medicine shields were typically made out of animal skin that was stretched over a wooden hoop. Pictures, emblems and symbols would be then painted on the Medicine shields. As the young warrior grew in stature additional objects reflecting his prowess as a warrior were added to the Medicine shield such as feathers and scalps.

Laser Pistol:

A Vision Quest was undertaken by some Native Americans, namely of the Slapaho Tribe, wherein the final outcome was contact with the Mother Ship. These vision warriors were then rewarded with their very own Illudium PU-36 Explosive Space Modulator. But... again... this is only after smoking much Peyote.

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Well not stoping but protecting , i am not talking about the boar being knocked out but by decreasing the damage !

Also could a boar push a player around , when it charges in TFC ? Maybe if the player is next to a mountain or a ravine or a hole , it could be fatal ! Animals pushing you off the cliff what ya' think?

Definitely, IRL id rather run then face taking a hit however :P

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Well if you can take a hit from a sword and not be worried about it then why would a boar worry you :D

What about flaming arows ? Maybe a torch in the invetory or placed on the 3. special item inventory would light the arows if they were wraped with cloth ! A new way to use cloth !

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Also could a boar push a player around , when it charges in TFC ? Maybe if the player is next to a mountain or a ravine or a hole , it could be fatal ! Animals pushing you off the cliff what ya' think?

Well this one could!

Posted Image

HAVE AT YOU!

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Well this one could!

Posted Image

HAVE AT YOU!

That is not a boar it is a piglet , a mother boar would be near by charging you from the side killing you whit the first charge , knocking you into the cold river ....washing you to shore...

What aobut the second one above ?

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Your initial point of having to kill 2000 rats does have merit. However, ask a pest control specialist if they are better at killing rats after working in the field for a year than they were on their first day on the job. Without being able to design a gameplay mechanic for every single possibly intricacy of a specific set of actions, such as smithing or combat, the player should have some way of simulating the fact that you do tend to get just plain better at something with practice. Skills are a system of feedback for things that we can't present to the player in any other way.

The key to this is it not being grindy, i think. Yes, you do get better at a task if you have done it a few times. You also get very bad at it if it is all you do. (which is one of the reasons why assembly line workers get rotated.) But I digress: If I get a "reward" for doing a good job as a player so my skill advances quicker, then I am all for it. If it is just a number game that a bot could do better than me, then I am feeling like I am being jerked around. But I think we are not really disagreeing here :)

As to your point of long time players already having an advantage due to better armor, its not that simple. Say we have a server with two factions. Faction A has 10 veterans and Steel Armor, Faction B has 5 veterans and Steel Armor. Naturally you'd expect Faction A to win. However, Faction B does some recruiting and brings in 5 newbies and hands them free steel armor to join them. You now

have 10v10 battles occurring in which the veterans have 0 advantage, whereas the conscripts would be terrible soldiers to begin with just like they have been since time immemorial. The only way to simulate this would be to give the veterans a way to distinguish themselves.

However I do not believe that the skills should provide enough of a difference to where the conscripts are completely unable to kill the veterans.

Same as above: I do not think we are disagreeing: The key balancing fact here is that newbie A should have a hard time, but it should not be impossible for them to score a victory against Veteran in Steel Armor even if they are not equipped similary. Admittingly, they might have to gang up on the veterans at least 2 : 1 if they still have stone axes, probably :P

Possibly. The merits to this are still being debated. Potentially a combat only stamina system would complement this well. As mentioned earlier, the leather armor archer is an issue but I've seen it handled quit well in games like War of the Roses. Archers can still kick some ass but swords cut through them like butter.

*nodnods* Being able to run as fast, but depleting your stamina faster in heavy armor might be the key here. Drawing/charging up the bow would slow you down, which means that with every shot, the melee guys draw closer. Yes, you can outrun them, but you cannot run-shoot-run forever. Eventually they'll catch up and then it will be quickly over. I just dislike mechanics that force you to use one tactic only: e.g.: You need to have a bow as well as a sword, otherwise you can't ever catch the light archers, or you have to do immersion breaking stuff like quick-swap your heavy plate for leather, mow down the archers, then quick swap back :P

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That is not a boar it is a piglet , a mother boar would be near by charging you from the side killing you whit the first charge , knocking you into the cold river ....washing you to shore...

What aobut the second one above ?

Yes it is and you are right.. it is. A common Wild Boar piglet found in the Netherlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_boar

But Back to... un-reality....

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Hm.

I think skills are a great idea, if balanced to not be too overbearing...

I hope they spill into other aspects of the game too.. such as the obvious smithing.. See my post in the tfc2 section for skills.. its off topic to post it here since this is for combat.. But I feel it was a decent post for the information I had at the time..

EDIT: I am also a big fan of the shields idea.. carry on :)

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