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noobsrtoast

is terrafirmacraft growing as a mod?

19 posts in this topic

so Im not bashing the mod or anything in fact quite the opposite, im concerned. I have been seeing a lot of suggestions getting put down by seemingly closed minded people (im not referring to my suggestion post you have given me a completely logical reason as to why it cannot be done and I agree with you) who say things like "terrafirmacraft is not meant to be like that" or " this mod is not going in that direction or particularely any direction for that matter" I even seen a post that was suggesting that you have ADHD if you think that the mod needs more things to do in it (to which I agree to an extent but wish for it to remain free and with no purpose if you make that choice).

 

so back to the original point I wanna hear it straight from one of the devs is this mod really closed minded and not open to new Ideas like some people think, is this mod really "not going anywhere" are you guys done is that it? I don't like to make judgements but it seems like the whole community is really closed minded I don't know if that's just because they don't like changes, or maybe because we haven't seen much development with the mod and people have lost faith I haven't been here long enough.

 

I will not make any judgements until I hear both sides of the story my question to anyone whos been quote on quote "negative" in any posts tell me if there's a reason. I personally think the mod is amazing and only getting better and the developers are listening to our suggestions otherwise they wouldn't have allowed us to make suggestions, but right now it seems like the whole suggestions page is just a big cesspool of negativity and ridicule.

 

I understand that some suggestions are pretty ridiculous or undoable or even not realistic at all gameplay wise, but there were some pretty good ones out there, totally plausible, and realistic that get thrown overboard, so please reassure me somebody

-noobsrtoast

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Let me be the first to say this.....

 

 

Welcome to the internet.

 

hell even in face to face discussions people almost always will not see eye to eye, so every thing will be wrong to at least one person and since its the internet that one person will make an ass of themselves and be as negative and caustic as they can be

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but there were some pretty good ones out there, totally plausible, and realistic that get thrown overboard

 

Could you provide examples of these suggestions, and of the reply that "throws it overboard?"

 

In my opinion, the major reason that the Suggestions Forum is a cesspool as you called it, is because the majority of "new" suggestions that are being made have already been made in the past, and discussed to death. Our more veteran forum members, as well as myself, are getting sick of seeing the same thing posted over and over and over again. This probably explains the dismissing responses that don't give explanation other than "not gonna happen."

 

At the same time, the majority of people who make suggestions are not familiar with programming, or the Minecraft base engine. This results in suggestions that say things along the lines of "It's simple, just code it to do x, y and z," when in reality the behind the scenes isn't even close to being that simple, and would probably require hours, if not days or weeks of coding to implement. It has to be kept in mind that this is a game, and that it is a mod for Minecraft. Many people forget this, and make suggestions that would often require TFC to become its own separate game in order for that to happen. Bioxx and Dunkleosteus have lives outside of TFC, and this mod is simply a hobby for them, not their job. I for one, get extremely excited whenever I see Dunk submit a feature commit, because I know that he has taken on quite a course load at university this semester, and is putting school before TFC as he should. The fact that forward progress is being made at all should be celebrated, and not complained about because "it isn't going fast enough." When people ask for an ETA of when the next release is, the answer is always going to be "When it's ready. No sooner, no later." The devs are not getting paid to do this, and should not be forced to set release deadlines to work towards.

 

There are also suggestions that completely ignore the fact that TFC wants to go in a specific direction, believable but not always realistic. The unexplained (magic, fantasy, enchanting, etc), do not fit well into a mod that is trying to be intuitive. There is defined logic and science behind the majority of mechanics that would be nearly impossible to use for fantastical things that are explained with the imagination or "magic." TFC is working on its compatibility however, so that players are more than welcome to add other add-ons or mods in combination with TFC if they wish to have role-playing or fantasy aspects. The players just need to realize that those aspects most likely aren't going to be added to the base mod any time soon, if ever, and they will have to look elsewhere to find it, or code an add-on for it themselves.

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Kitty, I wonder then if it might be better to actually lock the suggestions forum for a while, or at least until the next update is released. Could put a short message in the forum description explaining why and leave it at that. Certainly people have raised issues about these problems in the suggestion forum before... might be good to just let everyone chill while we all wait to see what all makes it in. And besides, I think enough suggestions have come out over the years that devs have pretty much already heard everything they might ever do with the mod anyway, so that alone sort of renders moot the purpose of giving a place for suggestions.

 

At the heart of this though is the fact that there is no development road-map. I understand why there is no road-map, but if people don't see where the development is heading and especially where it's at, then they will forever keep throwing out the same suggestions just as we've seen. For that reason too, then, there isn't really much of a purpose for the suggestion forum. Bad ideas will only be killed painfully dashing the enthusiasm of newer members, and good ideas will just sort of disappear into the ether of a nonexistent road-map anyway.

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Closing the suggestions forum would just move the suggestions over here, really ;) People have a need to express their wishes and ideas. It's not a bad thing to have discussion.

 

Another thing people should keep in mind though is feature backlog. The devs have repeatedly expressed that the mod isn't yet anywhere near basic completion. What this means is: for every feature they implement, they have 10 or more planned features they don't have time to implement right now, which doesn't even begin to include previous player suggestions. As a result, any suggestion made by a player not only has to compete with the current feature progression, but it also has to compete with the entire feature backlog, and the entire player suggestion backlog that comes after that. Even if you were to suggest something that's totally fitting for the game, has never been suggested before and could be implemented with ease, chances are that it's simply going to have to get in line. And that line may be hundreds of items equaling years of development long.

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The problem comes down to basic respect for others. While there's nothing inherently wrong with shooting down ideas (especially those that have been done before), there is something wrong when people feel like they have to make the OP feel like an idiot for daring to post their suggestion. You can turn someone's suggestion down without turning it into an attack or passive aggression against the OP. Negativity and disrespect just makes everyone feel worse in the long run.

 

I agree that people should read the sickies and take the time to find out if their suggestion has been done before. When I joined I had actually done that, so I posted my suggestion secure knowing that I had checked first and taken the time to think it through and post plenty of details and so-on. But the idea got blown to pieces by the regulars and I was made to feel quite unwelcome for having even dared to bring it to the table. I know that some didn't even take the time to read it before responding in a rage-like manner as they pointed out the suggestion had already been done before, but the threads they linked to were not even the same suggestion. After that I ended up leaving the forums and quitting TFC until I rediscovered it nearly a year or so later.

 

People who post without reading and abiding by the rules and guidelines first are always going to exist and they are annoying, but they're not the only ones who get raged at and if you ask me nobody should be getting raged at.

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Let me be the first to say this.....

 

 

Welcome to the internet.

 

hell even in face to face discussions people almost always will not see eye to eye, so every thing will be wrong to at least one person and since its the internet that one person will make an ass of themselves and be as negative and caustic as they can be

 

yea but whats the point do they have that low of a self esteem that they have to flame the mod and its creators like that your supposed to be proud when someone can ccomplish something you cant thats why were all losing faith in humanity i suppose

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Could you provide examples of these suggestions, and of the reply that "throws it overboard?"

 

In my opinion, the major reason that the Suggestions Forum is a cesspool as you called it, is because the majority of "new" suggestions that are being made have already been made in the past, and discussed to death. Our more veteran forum members, as well as myself, are getting sick of seeing the same thing posted over and over and over again. This probably explains the dismissing responses that don't give explanation other than "not gonna happen."

 

At the same time, the majority of people who make suggestions are not familiar with programming, or the Minecraft base engine. This results in suggestions that say things along the lines of "It's simple, just code it to do x, y and z," when in reality the behind the scenes isn't even close to being that simple, and would probably require hours, if not days or weeks of coding to implement. It has to be kept in mind that this is a game, and that it is a mod for Minecraft. Many people forget this, and make suggestions that would often require TFC to become its own separate game in order for that to happen. Bioxx and Dunkleosteus have lives outside of TFC, and this mod is simply a hobby for them, not their job. I for one, get extremely excited whenever I see Dunk submit a feature commit, because I know that he has taken on quite a course load at university this semester, and is putting school before TFC as he should. The fact that forward progress is being made at all should be celebrated, and not complained about because "it isn't going fast enough." When people ask for an ETA of when the next release is, the answer is always going to be "When it's ready. No sooner, no later." The devs are not getting paid to do this, and should not be forced to set release deadlines to work towards.

 

There are also suggestions that completely ignore the fact that TFC wants to go in a specific direction, believable but not always realistic. The unexplained (magic, fantasy, enchanting, etc), do not fit well into a mod that is trying to be intuitive. There is defined logic and science behind the majority of mechanics that would be nearly impossible to use for fantastical things that are explained with the imagination or "magic." TFC is working on its compatibility however, so that players are more than welcome to add other add-ons or mods in combination with TFC if they wish to have role-playing or fantasy aspects. The players just need to realize that those aspects most likely aren't going to be added to the base mod any time soon, if ever, and they will have to look elsewhere to find it, or code an add-on for it themselves.

 

thats not what i mean the mod is going places for sure and i understand that it is meant to be beleivable not realistic but some suggetions would indeed fit the beleivable category one suggested more objectives in the mod something more to work for someone said it was ridiculous and that people who need more things to do in the mod are ritalin popping people who need to see blood gore and action, which doesnt even make sense to me whatsoever more goals would be an amazing addition and i dont think it deserves the hate, never said "hurry and get it out already" i dont care if you guys quit on us (the mod is hard enough now as it is), but the suggestion didnt need to beflamed like that one could argue that he gave no specific tasks we could complete, but thats grounds for a big discussion "what tasks" and civilized people would do just that discuss it, theres no need for hate. also how could he possibly give anything more detailed he, probably similar to me, does not know a damn thing about java coding so if he made any real suggestions most likely 80% of them are uncodeable, or would take too much time so we keep it simple and go for "more goals to work for" no need to hate on it :D

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Could you provide examples of these suggestions, and of the reply that "throws it overboard?"

 

In my opinion, the major reason that the Suggestions Forum is a cesspool as you called it, is because the majority of "new" suggestions that are being made have already been made in the past, and discussed to death. Our more veteran forum members, as well as myself, are getting sick of seeing the same thing posted over and over and over again. This probably explains the dismissing responses that don't give explanation other than "not gonna happen."

 

At the same time, the majority of people who make suggestions are not familiar with programming, or the Minecraft base engine. This results in suggestions that say things along the lines of "It's simple, just code it to do x, y and z," when in reality the behind the scenes isn't even close to being that simple, and would probably require hours, if not days or weeks of coding to implement. It has to be kept in mind that this is a game, and that it is a mod for Minecraft. Many people forget this, and make suggestions that would often require TFC to become its own separate game in order for that to happen. Bioxx and Dunkleosteus have lives outside of TFC, and this mod is simply a hobby for them, not their job. I for one, get extremely excited whenever I see Dunk submit a feature commit, because I know that he has taken on quite a course load at university this semester, and is putting school before TFC as he should. The fact that forward progress is being made at all should be celebrated, and not complained about because "it isn't going fast enough." When people ask for an ETA of when the next release is, the answer is always going to be "When it's ready. No sooner, no later." The devs are not getting paid to do this, and should not be forced to set release deadlines to work towards.

 

There are also suggestions that completely ignore the fact that TFC wants to go in a specific direction, believable but not always realistic. The unexplained (magic, fantasy, enchanting, etc), do not fit well into a mod that is trying to be intuitive. There is defined logic and science behind the majority of mechanics that would be nearly impossible to use for fantastical things that are explained with the imagination or "magic." TFC is working on its compatibility however, so that players are more than welcome to add other add-ons or mods in combination with TFC if they wish to have role-playing or fantasy aspects. The players just need to realize that those aspects most likely aren't going to be added to the base mod any time soon, if ever, and they will have to look elsewhere to find it, or code an add-on for it themselves.

 

oh and for the record i think suggesting the addition of magic to the mod is completely ridiculous as the mod doesnt steer in that direction at all and its getting old people asking for it

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The problem comes down to basic respect for others. While there's nothing inherently wrong with shooting down ideas (especially those that have been done before), there is something wrong when people feel like they have to make the OP feel like an idiot for daring to post their suggestion. You can turn someone's suggestion down without turning it into an attack or passive aggression against the OP. Negativity and disrespect just makes everyone feel worse in the long run.

 

I agree that people should read the sickies and take the time to find out if their suggestion has been done before. When I joined I had actually done that, so I posted my suggestion secure knowing that I had checked first and taken the time to think it through and post plenty of details and so-on. But the idea got blown to pieces by the regulars and I was made to feel quite unwelcome for having even dared to bring it to the table. I know that some didn't even take the time to read it before responding in a rage-like manner as they pointed out the suggestion had already been done before, but the threads they linked to were not even the same suggestion. After that I ended up leaving the forums and quitting TFC until I rediscovered it nearly a year or so later.

 

People who post without reading and abiding by the rules and guidelines first are always going to exist and they are annoying, but they're not the only ones who get raged at and if you ask me nobody should be getting raged at.

 

exactly people should be polite about it instead of being assholes this is a forum people are going to be suggesting the same things a lot i think people should take the time to read through the suggesstions like i have but still its going to happen its unavoidable people just need to try and be polite about it because the first thing someone is going to do if your rude to them is retaliate they probably would even post another of the same suggestion just to troll and piss people off because there hurt if we were all polite to each other problems like this wouldnt exist in the first place same is true for the real world

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Closing the suggestions forum would just move the suggestions over here, really ;) People have a need to express their wishes and ideas. It's not a bad thing to have discussion.

 

Another thing people should keep in mind though is feature backlog. The devs have repeatedly expressed that the mod isn't yet anywhere near basic completion. What this means is: for every feature they implement, they have 10 or more planned features they don't have time to implement right now, which doesn't even begin to include previous player suggestions. As a result, any suggestion made by a player not only has to compete with the current feature progression, but it also has to compete with the entire feature backlog, and the entire player suggestion backlog that comes after that. Even if you were to suggest something that's totally fitting for the game, has never been suggested before and could be implemented with ease, chances are that it's simply going to have to get in line. And that line may be hundreds of items equaling years of development

 

 

Closing the suggestions forum would just move the suggestions over here, really ;) People have a need to express their wishes and ideas. It's not a bad thing to have discussion.

 

Another thing people should keep in mind though is feature backlog. The devs have repeatedly expressed that the mod isn't yet anywhere near basic completion. What this means is: for every feature they implement, they have 10 or more planned features they don't have time to implement right now, which doesn't even begin to include previous player suggestions. As a result, any suggestion made by a player not only has to compete with the current feature progression, but it also has to compete with the entire feature backlog, and the entire player suggestion backlog that comes after that. Even if you were to suggest something that's totally fitting for the game, has never been suggested before and could be implemented with ease, chances are that it's simply going to have to get in line. And that line may be hundreds of items equaling years of development long.

 

 

thats what i wanted to know i thought the devs (and everyone else) were just being assholes about things because they dont feel like the mod needs anything else nd just want people to shut up

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Kitty, I wonder then if it might be better to actually lock the suggestions forum for a while, or at least until the next update is released. Could put a short message in the forum description explaining why and leave it at that. Certainly people have raised issues about these problems in the suggestion forum before... might be good to just let everyone chill while we all wait to see what all makes it in. And besides, I think enough suggestions have come out over the years that devs have pretty much already heard everything they might ever do with the mod anyway, so that alone sort of renders moot the purpose of giving a place for suggestions.

 

At the heart of this though is the fact that there is no development road-map. I understand why there is no road-map, but if people don't see where the development is heading and especially where it's at, then they will forever keep throwing out the same suggestions just as we've seen. For that reason too, then, there isn't really much of a purpose for the suggestion forum. Bad ideas will only be killed painfully dashing the enthusiasm of newer members, and good ideas will just sort of disappear into the ether of a nonexistent road-map anyway.

 

im not trying to rush anyone and i know that the development isnt on any specific path i was just looking for someone to reassure me that the mod was still making progress

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There is still plenty of work being done. Build 78 will actually have quite a few new features as well as laying the groundwork for future things. So rest assured, yes TFC is making progress. 

 

 

 

For that reason too, then, there isn't really much of a purpose for the suggestion forum. Bad ideas will only be killed painfully dashing the enthusiasm of newer members, and good ideas will just sort of disappear into the ether of a nonexistent road-map anyway.

As far as this, that's not entirely true. I don't often chime in on discussions in the suggestions forum, but I do browse from time to time, and Kitty usually lets me know if there is something good to be seen. Sometimes, the amount of work that a good feature might require is outweighed by my need to overhaul smithing again  :P or some other such feature. But I do tend to file things away in the back of my mind for future use.

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As far as this, that's not entirely true. I don't often chime in on discussions in the suggestions forum, but I do browse from time to time, and Kitty usually lets me know if there is something good to be seen. Sometimes, the amount of work that a good feature might require is outweighed by my need to overhaul smithing again  :P or some other such feature. But I do tend to file things away in the back of my mind for future use.

 

That's kind of what I meant though, when good ideas that you like and want to implement some day show up, there is no particular repository for people to look and see that the idea has been conceived of and is potentially on the way. So they *disappear* in that sense into the road-map, because nobody really knows except you. Then if someone else comes along and thinks up the same thing, they post it again and it's rinse-and-repeat.

 

People don't know that their idea was accepted (or not sometimes too), nor does anyone else have somewhere to see that an idea they just had might already be on the way.

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There is no repository for people to see if an idea is on its way because the devs are constantly changing their minds. One day they might hate a suggestion, the next they might think it isn't so bad, and could maybe tweak it to suit the mod. If there was some sort of tangible list, it would be a nightmare to keep it up to date, and could possibly dash the hopes and dreams of those posting suggestions. Not even Bioxx knows if something is going to be implemented for sure until he's done coding it. If you follow the commit logs on github, you'll know pretty much as much as the devs do for what's "coming soon."

 

As for the posting of repeat topics, I have recently implemented new rules to the Suggestions forum to limit this. There is a suggestions directory for quick navigation, as well as the search function of the forums, or just good ol' flipping through the forum pages. Repeat topics will be merged together, and members are encouraged to post their suggestions as replies to topics that already have the same general topic.

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There is no repository for people to see if an idea is on its way because the devs are constantly changing their minds.

...

There is a suggestions directory for quick navigation, as well as the search function of the forums, or just good ol' flipping through the forum pages. Repeat topics will be merged together, and members are encouraged to post their suggestions as replies to topics that already have the same general topic.

I do understand this, I was just explaining that without that, I don't see how the aforementioned issues will cease.

 

As for people reading through the rules and previously-submitted stuff.... well, it's probably hard to say how many people actually do that before throwing their idea down.

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The devs are not getting paid to do this, and should not be forced to set release deadlines to work towards.

They actually should. But they should not be forced to announce them to anyone.

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I certainly use the suggestions forum. I feel like its a good place to get an idea of what people think needs to be improved or added to the mod. Sure, there are some suggestions that probably won't make it into the mod, but it's interesting to see how people imagine the mod playing.

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The suggestion forum should really be a spit-ball palace.  Where the Dev's can go to look into the minds of the community and perhaps get a brainwave from a suggestion. A lot of suggestions require A LOT of work, or request the game becomes more of a simulator. Given the scope of the mod (total conversion) it's a lot harder to make some real noticeable progress than other mods.

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