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PaoloEmilio

Bronze bloomeries? Iron furnaces? That ain't be believable

59 posts in this topic

I mean, the big thing about the history of metal progression was that even once people had iron, there was generally a 700 year waiting period before they would figure out how to make better iron tools then bronze. Copper/Bronze have very easy methods of anealing and sharpening, can be quickly cast into usable tools without advanced furnaces, and require less infastructure to make finished ingots/tools in general.

 

I would love to see iron tools actually start out with aweful attributes, but get extra bonuses from smithing skill that would take a very long time to get good enough to make it reach a point where it is on par with bronze, especially when it comes to armor (Brittle, unannealed metals with lots of slag tend to make aweful anything that needs to resist stress.)

 

Better yet, make early iron ingots, refined with low general smithing skills something that cannot be used to make sheets, tuyres, and the like, as amature smiths fail to produce bars with low enough slag contents to be considered worthy of finery. An intuitive UI element might be "Forging operation requires slag content of '<1.6%.'" Creating an obvious progression of being a good smith, and being able to complete a full list of metalworking tasks with iron. (Yes, this would mean listing slag contents on iron ingots, but probably not finished tools.)

 

This might even mean that the most crude iron ingots can make little more then a hammer, which, from my experience, is able to do most stoneworking/mining tasks with aweful efficiency in the version of TFC I remember playing best. Which is excellent, as this would make the first months worth of iron tools arguably less convinient then just finding copper and casting a pick. That is exactly what I would go for.

 

The gameplay purposes this would serve is simple. The goal of allowing earlier, but far weaker ironworking would be to create more regions which could be considered "livable" from the perspective of the tech tree, while still making the early game a time where strong diplomacy, and will to trade is valuable: You don't want to be forced to work iron early on, but you don't need to be quite as stubborn about finding an ideal start with clay, copper, flux, and alloy-materials in a three hours walking distance of one another in order to see the game through to the end of its tech tree (My experience with trying to play with other people is that they will demand the group restart as many times as they need to to reduce travel times... This is among older groups, as well.)

 

However, having more probable access to terrible early game metal tools creates a massive early game incentive (in multiplayer games,) to settle sooner, gather the rescources your people are good at gathering, and trade to get materials that are legitimately useful to both societies mutual growth until both sides have developed their skills, rescources, and infastructure to hit the point of being more self sufficient... Which would be a natural cut-off point for a warring states period, but of course, once everyone is making pig iron, there isn't many goals left over for the player to achive anyhow.

 

Regardless, this seems to be an old discussion, but really... Would like more paths through the same tech tree. Going through new struggles with the same end goals.

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I think one of the huge things that you absolutely must remember at all times is that this is a mod for Minecraft. It literally has craft in the name. The crafting grid isn't going anywhere because it is an extremely core aspect of the base game that this mod is for. The point of a Minecraft mod is to expand on the core aspects of the game. If we wanted to rewrite absolutely every basic concept, we might as well make it a standalone game, which isn't going to happen.

 

There's also the fact that if we went the route of changing so many of the basic things that are the core of Minecraft, it would very likely completely destroy any hopes of compatibility with other mods, which is pretty much exactly the opposite of what we want to do.

 

So much stuff in tfc is thoroughly different from vanilla that I don't think it is really justifiable to say that you can't remove the crafting table because it is a mod for minecraft.

 

When everything from almost all the tools, almost (if not all) all the world gen, the combat equipment, and all the mobs are all either heavily tweaked or completely rewritten from their vanilla counterparts, it seems perfectly reasonable to keep the crafting table purely for compatibility reasons, especially when the way tfc replaces much of the vanillla crafting (knapping, forging, weaving, fireing, and drying) ARE SO $#%^@&@^#  AWESOME.  

If tfc were "simply a mod for minecraft" I would expect something like this:

     No wood tools

     Flint spawns on the ground and need to be knapped to form stone tools.

     Wood needs to be mined with an axe.

     Copper and tin spawn as ores which are smelted to make bronze.
     Iron ore is smelted in a bloomery (a furnace made of bricks instead of stone)

     Diamonds are knapped like stone tools.

     Otherwise, the exact same as minecraft. Same worldgen same damage/health, same items (iron=iron, not wrought iron)

 

As fun as this would be, real life tfc is so much more than this. Tfc does not need to be held back by what is in vanilla minecraft, as the devs have shown, and can do away with more of vanilla than it currently is.

 

 

 

 

I would love to see iron tools actually start out with aweful attributes, but get extra bonuses from smithing skill that would take a very long time to get good enough to make it reach a point where it is on par with bronze, especially when it comes to armor (Brittle, unannealed metals with lots of slag tend to make aweful anything that needs to resist stress.)

 

Better yet, make early iron ingots, refined with low general smithing skills something that cannot be used to make sheets, tuyres, and the like, as amature smiths fail to produce bars with low enough slag contents to be considered worthy of finery. An intuitive UI element might be "Forging operation requires slag content of '<1.6%.'" Creating an obvious progression of being a good smith, and being able to complete a full list of metalworking tasks with iron. (Yes, this would mean listing slag contents on iron ingots, but probably not finished tools.

 

 

This would make so much sense, as bronze bloomeries are absurd, but the proper progression is arguably more important. The players poor skill in forging both the bloom and the tools would replace the time spent making a bloomery as we know it.

 

This would be nice, because now, you need to find a world with copper, quickly find a region with the alloying ingredients for bronze, then iron ore etc. A balanced way to skip bronze (or at least part of it) would reduce the amount that worldgen would have to do for you, in terms of creating the right ores.

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I like some of the points made here, like how unbelievable it is to have bronze bloomeries.

I would prefer a system based in knowledge, 

Trying to do something ahead of your time would just trig a game response like "You don't know how to do that".

The player could be required to make a full set of tools and armor out of bronze before he can start working with iron.

Since historically written language accompanied the metal age, You could also require the player to make books.

If you really want to make it even better the player would need to find books with the secret to iron in dungeons underground that could only be reachable with bronze tools.

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I like some of the points made here, like how unbelievable it is to have bronze bloomeries.

I would prefer a system based in knowledge, 

Trying to do something ahead of your time would just trig a game response like "You don't know how to do that".

The player could be required to make a full set of tools and armor out of bronze before he can start working with iron.

Since historically written language accompanied the metal age, You could also require the player to make books.

If you really want to make it even better the player would need to find books with the secret to iron in dungeons underground that could only be reachable with bronze tools.

I would like a skill based system, but I don't like the idea of requiring a full suit of armor just because the game said so, I like the idea of needing a full suit of armor so you are able to survive long enough to even make iron

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thats actually what we are trying to achieve. We making the mobs harder to kill so you have more reasons to use armor. 

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I think that making a full set of armour and tools before being able to progress is NOT a good idea.

Even in TFC1, armour takes a stupd amount of metal - those resources are precious and having to waste them on a suit of armour you don't want is pointless and wasteful.

If you've got copprt armour why do you need bronze armour?  

Assuming you can melt down your copper armour for "scrap" it would still be very wasteful of (especially) time and resources.

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Assuming one would play tfc the way it is right now without any other addon or tweaking yes making bronze armors would be a waste. So much, that most players do not even bother to make armor until they can make some high tier and then is mostly just for showing off. The truth is that a player with no armor and using stone weapons is capable of killing zombies, so why bother?

in a linear system you would need to make such armors not just because they are a requirement, but because you need then.

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We already have skills so:
We have a complex metallurgy and farming system that become more hard to balance because of complexity.
All metalwork creation based in skill is better for balance at any time of the mod advance, and for sustain the believable objectivity.

Who don't agree with this logic for "keep it simple, stupid" to Devs waste less time, so with this increasing the system?

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Well Metallurgy is a very complex system in tfc and I really like the way it evolves from basic metals to higher tier ones.

As for Farming, not so much. The crops all behave in pretty much the same way and all satisfy the same need. We have a huge advantage from vanilla, where it does not matter what you eat and you can survive eating only one food. We better from the point that at least to have better health the player need to eat 5 different food groups. But to really advance farming we would need to add the need for variety.

The delicious Thanksgiving dinner we having today will not taste as good after 3 days eating turkey. What bothers me is that we already have all those different fruits and vegetables and grains and meat. So all we would need is to add the need for variety. I really dislike the concept of the perfect sandwich as is not just unbelievable as it makes possible for the player to have single crops. Once you found that the perfect vegetable for you is potatoes why would you plant anything else?

Another area that we could improve is animal husbandry, introducing animal hunger would make the farming animals a more rich experience and also give a use for all the food abundance that we have in tfc.

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