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Jag

Canoes

79 posts in this topic

 

 

As for building, I think it's a little difficult. Having individual "parts" crafted and assembled just sounds messy. What about a "boat builders' bench". You place it next to the water and right click to open its UI. The interface has a number of slots for items with associated ship parts and item quantities, such as "Hull", "Deck", "Mast", "Sail", "Rigging", "Rudder", "Keel", and "Boom". Possibly more. Once you have the required items, you place a saw and a hammer in two tool slots (like the anvil). And then for each piece you can do a mini-game that operates similar to the anvil, but where the theme is cutting and attaching planks together. Not sure how this would work, but it would be possible to mess up. No cooling metal though. Once you've constructed all the parts, it'll just assemble them into your boat in the water and there you go.

 

The sailboat would require planks and saws obviously as opposed to the canoe. It would be more difficult to steer, especially upwind but wouldn't require constant paddling like a canoe and could go much faster.

 

 

THIS is just an idea. Discuss it, talk about it, whatever but don't assume this is happening.

That would be awesome.

As a wood carver myself. I can tell that if you mess up you lose the wood and have to start over.

With metals you can melt it back ( most of the times) With wood if you do a wrong cut, is over.

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A dugout canoe would be great.  As it is, there's no way to get a boat until you've started smelting metals and have expanded your crafting grid to 3X3.  Dugouts date back to the paleolithic, so it seems like they should be available quite early on in the game.  The crafting recipe could be something as simple as two logs side by side, with a stone axe above them, a la the wooden bowl.  It would make sense from a realism and from a game balance point of view if they are less capable than a more advanced boat made using metal tools, but the vanilla minecraft boats are so bad that I'm not sure this is worth pursuing.  Maybe a better plan would be for the dugout to be a reskinned vanilla boat, with all of their problems (breaking on lily pads, being difficult to get out of without knocking them away, frequently getting desynced with the server and then breaking on an island that you were tens of meters away from, etc, etc), and then to consider adding a fancier bronze-age boat later to replace the existing vanilla boat.

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hmmm, if we do end up with the canoe. can we get the option of putting a chest in the boat instead of a second person? like a minecart with a chest, it makes traveling with things a little easier.

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hmmm, if we do end up with the canoe. can we get the option of putting a chest in the boat instead of a second person? like a minecart with a chest, it makes traveling with things a little easier.

I think the ability to add a chest might be what separates a sail boat if it were added from a canoe.

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I think the ability to add a chest might be what separates a sail boat if it were added from a canoe.

Also sail boats would not be portable. 

We can believe someone carrying a canoe, but not a sail boat. 

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Also sail boats would not be portable. We can believe someone carrying a canoe, but not a sail boat.

Honestly I don't understand how you can play minecraft at all. Do you carry stone back from your mine one block at a time to keep it believable for yourself? Quality, balanced and progression based gameplay mechanics are what matter. Asking for things simply because you want to "believe it's real" (whatever that means) is getting really, really old.If you can justify your suggestion(s) and reasoning with more than whimsical notions about what you find easy or hard to believe I would happily give them more attention and consideration.
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Honestly I don't understand how you can play minecraft at all. Do you carry stone back from your mine one block at a time to keep it believable for yourself? Quality, balanced and progression based gameplay mechanics are what matter. Asking for things simply because you want to "believe it's real" (whatever that means) is getting really, really old.If you can justify your suggestion(s) and reasoning with more than whimsical notions about what you find easy or hard to believe I would happily give them more attention and consideration.

Not moving sail boats was something that I would agree with. It makes sense but that's not why I agree with it. Adding a feature just because it's realistic is silly, but I think in this PARTICULAR case, it might be interesting. It might encourage players to build a dock or possibly a miniature port on a server.

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Not moving sail boats was something that I would agree with. It makes sense but that's not why I agree with it. Adding a feature just because it's realistic is silly, but I think in this PARTICULAR case, it might be interesting. It might encourage players to build a dock or possibly a miniature port on a server.

I never said the idea was bad, only the justification. I agree that in a scenario with basic canoes and more advanced vessels such as sailboats that would have perks such as not breaking into planks, carrying passengers (player or mob), storage capacity etc... You would need to implement disadvantages to balance the perks. Off the top of my head I would say that if you did break a sailboat it should give you parts (hull, mast, sailcloth, rudder, ropes etc) which would need a hammer, saw and additional planks if you wanted to reconstruct it in another body of water.Not to make it totally immovable but at least a serious pain to relocate requiring tools, materials and plenty of inventory space.
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I like the canoe ideas with the placing and axing, I think that you should be able to make them multiple blocks long, like anywhere from 3 to 10, room for 1 player per block not at the edge, the downside is that it would require more players to carry and would be harder to control.

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10 people, all i can think of is a super fast lag machine... But it will be cool to make this a mass transport

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The whole point of a better boat is, to me, being able to carry some material in it.  I mean, the vanilla boat allows you to move over water but that's it - when it isn't crashing into stuff.  A TFC canoe, to me, had to be somewhat of a project that maybe would take either a lot of time or material and have the benefit of carrying some material.

 

A sailboat would be bigger, carry more people, cost more in material and time, and stay in the water.  Maybe even has cabins inside - and therefore need a deep water port and lots of room when on the move.  

 

A canoe could be something one player would make for island hopping.

Posted Image

 

A sailboat would be something done by a group of players exploring a coast or a ocean on a server.

Posted Image

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THIS is just an idea. Discuss it, talk about it, whatever but don't assume this is happening.

 

Wow!

Having quite some sailing-experience myself, I always thought, how incredibly amazing it would be to have such more or less realistic simulation of sailing in TFC; I just never thought you were ever even considering that! You really sparked my hopes, guys :wub:

Although, I wouldn't allow bigger ships for that, only small sailing boats for maximum 2 People (or one animal with the helmsman) and a chest ...

 

If they were added, there'd have to be some limitations to them for sure... For starters, no picking them up. They'd probably have to be built at or very near the water. No ramming them into blocks, that'd damage them... Probably have to weigh anchor or tie them to a post to steady them. Next, how do you sit in one? are you locked into a seat or can you move around? Can you put other entities in them and how would that interfere with the boom? How do you adjust the boom and rudder? Will it end up being an ugly mechanic?

[...]

As far as controls, let's just say that [a] and [d] control the rudder and that [w] and control the boom? That could probably work. Having other entities is I guess another thing to consider. Maybe a way to move animals over the ocean?

 

Some thoughts about steering:

In my opinion it would be fine to let [a] and [d] control the rudder, but inverted - to simulate that you'd have to move the tiller of the rudder to the right side to steer the boat left. That likely also needs some practice to get used to, which is never a bad thing in TFC, right? ;)

As for the boom - I think that would be a bit trickier: in real-life you would never have to push the boom away from you (that's what the wind is for!), only pull it against the wind if needed (as is in most cases, except when sailing directly in front of the wind). The question is, how that could be implemented. At first I thought you wouldn't need two buttons for that, since the forward-motion of the boom would be handled by the wind. The Problem is though, that you would have to constantly push the "pull" button.

But - I think the most fitting solution in my opinion would be the mouse-wheel for that job, simulating the pulling and letting go of the main sheet (the rope that adjusts the boom/main sail; you would never directly adjust the boom - it's all pulling ropes!). Would that be possible?

To take that one step further, would it be possible to make letting go of the sheet rope (move the mouse-wheel forward) much easier/faster than pulling it against the wind (move the wheel backwards)? I think that would feel quite real and doesn't seem too complicated to code ...

Just one more question - how would you get wind into TFC?

[Edit:] I also plan on adding some thoughts about tacking, heeling and physical drags of a sailing boat in the water (namely "luff" and "bearing away") and how that stuff could be implemented, if you guys are interested! After all Dunk wanted to make steering of the sailing boat more difficult ;) 

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I like this idea simply for the boat building aspect. It makes it a much more realistic process, considering boats actually take some time to make. Great idea!

 

Edit: Might I add all of dunks points about the mechanics make perfect sense to me, and I totally agree.

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Wow!

Having quite some sailing-experience myself, I always thought, how incredibly amazing it would be to have such more or less realistic simulation of sailing in TFC; I just never thought you were ever even considering that! You really sparked my hopes, guys :wub:

Although, I wouldn't allow bigger ships for that, only small sailing boats for maximum 2 People (or one animal with the helmsman) and a chest ...

 

 

Some thoughts about steering:

In my opinion it would be fine to let [a] and [d] control the rudder, but inverted - to simulate that you'd have to move the tiller of the rudder to the right side to steer the boat left. That likely also needs some practice to get used to, which is never a bad thing in TFC, right? ;)

As for the boom - I think that would be a bit trickier: in real-life you would never have to push the boom away from you (that's what the wind is for!), only pull it against the wind if needed (as is in most cases, except when sailing directly in front of the wind). The question is, how that could be implemented. At first I thought you wouldn't need two buttons for that, since the forward-motion of the boom would be handled by the wind. The Problem is though, that you would have to constantly push the "pull" button.

But - I think the most fitting solution in my opinion would be the mouse-wheel for that job, simulating the pulling and letting go of the main sheet (the rope that adjusts the boom/main sail; you would never directly adjust the boom - it's all pulling ropes!). Would that be possible?

To take that one step further, would it be possible to make letting go of the sheet rope (move the mouse-wheel forward) much easier/faster than pulling it against the wind (move the wheel backwards)? I think that would feel quite real and doesn't seem too complicated to code ...

Just one more question - how would you get wind into TFC?

[Edit:] I also plan on adding some thoughts about tacking, heeling and physical drags of a sailing boat in the water (namely "luff" and "bearing away") and how that stuff could be implemented, if you guys are interested! After all Dunk wanted to make steering of the sailing boat more difficult ;) 

Thank you for the input :)

 

I like the idea of inverting the rudder controls. About the boom however, I'm reluctant to assign a key like the mouse wheel to the boom. wasd cannot be used when steering as you must stay in the same place, but it's conceivable that one might want to be able to scroll between items while sailing (if for example you're preparing to use an item, such as a sword to defend yourself).

 

If my memory is correct, you'd be holding a rope attached to the boom in order to maintain the angle against the wind to pull the boat. More or less rope would have to be let out to compensate for changes in boat direction relative to the wind. I wonder if you think w and s could be used as originally stated to pull or give slack to the rope on the boom.

 

EDIT: I've done a bit of research and I think I want to use a gaff-rig on the sail boat. It seems to be pretty good for single-sailed small  boats, but I've run into some difficulties finding information about how each rope is used to control the shape and position of the sail. Are the throat and peak halyards that important, or can we sort of automate them? Where do the ropes attach and where do you manipulate them?

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Thank you for the input :)

 

I like the idea of inverting the rudder controls. About the boom however, I'm reluctant to assign a key like the mouse wheel to the boom. wasd cannot be used when steering as you must stay in the same place, but it's conceivable that one might want to be able to scroll between items while sailing (if for example you're preparing to use an item, such as a sword to defend yourself).

 

If my memory is correct, you'd be holding a rope attached to the boom in order to maintain the angle against the wind to pull the boat. More or less rope would have to be let out to compensate for changes in boat direction relative to the wind. I wonder if you think w and s could be used as originally stated to pull or give slack to the rope on the boom.

 

Thank you for the answer :)

I'd still like to hold onto the mouse wheel for several reasons:

 

- Adjusting the sail with every small change of direction

One reason which would make the [w] and keys impractical is changing directions: you'd need to constantly adjust the sail while steering. For example, when you are beam reaching and want to luff (e.g. the wind is coming directly from the left and you want to steer closer to the wind), you'd have to pull the sail ever closer, the closer you are to the wind: press [d] to steer left and continuously hammer with your middlefinger to keep the right angle of the sail? Or bear away from the wind and push [a] and [w] the same time to let the main sheet go. To be honest, I think the mouse wheel would still be the more elegant solution for that.

- The large movement of the boom and main sail when changing tacks.

Especially when gybeing (changing tacks with the wind coming from behind), the boom would move from about 90 degrees on one side to about 90 degrees on the other fairly quickly, a movement of almost 180 degrees! How would we control such a movement just with [w] and ?

Another thing to consider is that this movement would happen by the force of the wind, rather than controlled by the sailor (which is also one of the dangers of sailing, when the boom suddenly flies all over the back of the boat. Such an unintended gype can also cause a sailing boat to capsize).

I think, tacking could happen similar to the "Small boats" mod, where I like the look of the "automatic" tack changes with the boat slightly heeling leeward, but much more complex of course ...

 

- The mouse wheel would allow for quicker and more precise adjustments in changing conditions.

I guess, if you want to utilize [w] and for adjusting the sail, you would need to seperate the different angles of the boom into several steps. But wouldn't that be far too slow, if every small step means another pressing the keys? That could work, if you only use 5 or so different steps/positions (like -/I-). But if you plan to make more possible angles to adjust the boom more accurately, surely the mouse wheel would be much more flexible?

I think, 9 different angles would be apropriate: -90, -67.5, -45, -22.5, 0, 22.5 etc. degrees relative to the centerline of the boat.

- Lastly, if you want to eat or use a sword from your hotbar, you could always still use the number keys, you don't necessary have to use the mouse wheel for that ;)

If it should be too difficult or complicate to make the mouse wheel to the job, I think the [w] and keys could work as well, just not as elegant ... what do you think? After all, I have no idea about coding.

 

EDIT: I've done a bit of research and I think I want to use a gaff-rig on the sail boat. It seems to be pretty good for single-sailed small  boats, but I've run into some difficulties finding information about how each rope is used to control the shape and position of the sail. Are the throat and peak halyards that important, or can we sort of automate them? Where do the ropes attach and where do you manipulate them?

 

Honestly, I don't have any experience with gaff-rigged boats. This is mainly because they are more or less completely out of use nowadays and all modern dinghies and yachts use a bermuda rig (a triangular mainsail attached to the mast) which don't have a gaff and therefore don't have to be adjusted via peak halyards.

I can only guess that the peak halyard can be losened to make a bigger belly on downwind courses and be tightened for upwind. The throat halyard will most likely only set the sail and bring it down.

In my opinion, we can confidently pass their uses and concentrate on the boom/main sheet - although we should be able to set sail and bring it down when anchoring :)

Historically the gaffer may be more appropriate for TFC, on the other hand it would need more work and I wouldn't want to do that single-handedly. Another possibility for an old rigging (but even more work on deck) would be the latin-rigg.

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Thank you for the answer :)

I'd still like to hold onto the mouse wheel for several reasons:

 

- Adjusting the sail with every small change of direction

One reason which would make the [w] and keys impractical is changing directions: you'd need to constantly adjust the sail while steering. For example, when you are beam reaching and want to luff (e.g. the wind is coming directly from the left and you want to steer closer to the wind), you'd have to pull the sail ever closer, the closer you are to the wind: press [d] to steer left and continuously hammer with your middlefinger to keep the right angle of the sail? Or bear away from the wind and push [a] and [w] the same time to let the main sheet go. To be honest, I think the mouse wheel would still be the more elegant solution for that.

- The large movement of the boom and main sail when changing tacks.

Especially when gybeing (changing tacks with the wind coming from behind), the boom would move from about 90 degrees on one side to about 90 degrees on the other fairly quickly, a movement of almost 180 degrees! How would we control such a movement just with [w] and ?

Another thing to consider is that this movement would happen by the force of the wind, rather than controlled by the sailor (which is also one of the dangers of sailing, when the boom suddenly flies all over the back of the boat. Such an unintended gype can also cause a sailing boat to capsize).

I think, tacking could happen similar to the "Small boats" mod, where I like the look of the "automatic" tack changes with the boat slightly heeling leeward, but much more complex of course ...

 

- The mouse wheel would allow for quicker and more precise adjustments in changing conditions.

I guess, if you want to utilize [w] and for adjusting the sail, you would need to seperate the different angles of the boom into several steps. But wouldn't that be far too slow, if every small step means another pressing the keys? That could work, if you only use 5 or so different steps/positions (like -/I-). But if you plan to make more possible angles to adjust the boom more accurately, surely the mouse wheel would be much more flexible?

I think, 9 different angles would be apropriate: -90, -67.5, -45, -22.5, 0, 22.5 etc. degrees relative to the centerline of the boat.

- Lastly, if you want to eat or use a sword from your hotbar, you could always still use the number keys, you don't necessary have to use the mouse wheel for that ;)

If it should be too difficult or complicate to make the mouse wheel to the job, I think the [w] and keys could work as well, just not as elegant ... what do you think? After all, I have no idea about coding.

 

 

Honestly, I don't have any experience with gaff-rigged boats. This is mainly because they are more or less completely out of use nowadays and all modern dinghies and yachts use a bermuda rig (a triangular mainsail attached to the mast) which don't have a gaff and therefore don't have to be adjusted via peak halyards.

I can only guess that the peak halyard can be losened to make a bigger belly on downwind courses and be tightened for upwind. The throat halyard will most likely only set the sail and bring it down.

In my opinion, we can confidently pass their uses and concentrate on the boom/main sheet - although we should be able to set sail and bring it down when anchoring :)

Historically the gaffer may be more appropriate for TFC, on the other hand it would need more work and I wouldn't want to do that single-handedly. Another possibility for an old rigging (but even more work on deck) would be the latin-rigg.

Now that you've mentioned it, and after some research on my part, I agree that the mouse wheel is ideal for controlling the boom. As for the gaff, I think it would be best to automate it. It would be nice to be able to render such changes in the sail, but having it controlled by the player is a bit much.

 

I think in the end, the movement of the boat will be controlled by the rudder, with the D key turning the boat to the left and the A key turning it to the right. The mouse wheel will be used to control the boom's rope, although how that would specifically attach to the boom and the boat is something I'm a little lost on. Scrolling up would let out more rope and scrolling down would haul in rope. The sail itself will attempt to swing with the wind in the correct direction, it will be the player's choice as to how far they will allow the sail to go, thereby controlling the speed of the boat.

 

After some thought, I wonder if W and S can be used for gaff control? It's my understanding that they can adjust how much of the sail is exposed to the wind. That if the peak lanyard is pulled and the throat lanyard is relaxed, the gaff itself would be brought parallel to the mast and the boom brought upwards, in a way folding the sail. Giving a sail a larger or smaller surface area might be helpful for controlling the speed of the boat. If you wanted more control, a small sail might put an absolute limit on the speed of the craft regardless of wind position and sail orientation, to help players maneuver in smaller spaces or closer to a dock or shore.

 

I think one of the advantages of the gaff rig is that the boom is permanently at an angle relative to the deck, away from the heads of the crew.

 

As mentioned before, the boat will have 2 spaces in it besides the player operating it. The spaces could have blocks (a chest or barrel perhaps) or an entity, like a player or animal. Whether or not a swinging boom would hit players in these locations is a good question, but one I don't have an answer to right now.

 

This is the closest diagram I can find to what I'd like to have

Posted Image

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I love everything so far.

I wish the sail boat will allow for a couple of animals be it cows or sheep.

The main reason to have an improved boat is for it to actually give us an advantage over the canoe.

Yeah dunk having the boom hit the passenger could be fun but if it hits the animals it would just be annoying.

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THIS SEEMS LIKE AN AWESOME IDEA!! would love to see if not Boixx do it someone at least attempt it lol. 

 

idk if they would be able to do something like this though just because i feel like something as awesome and complicated as this would take a team of its own, maybe if some people got together created it and let bioxx put it into TFC if he was willing but i feel like realistically that would be the only way TFC would end up having this in it

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I think the a simple sail boat is feasible, but the whole concept of wind changing directions aleatory  in minecraft is a lot of effort for the reward.

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I think the a simple sail boat is feasible, but the whole concept of wind changing directions aleatory in minecraft is a lot of effort for the reward.

As I understand it, the wind won't change directions. I think there will be a fixed wind direction for every chunk based on latitude (e.g. the whole row on chunk x-coordinate 50 will have north wind, the next northern row of chunks will have north-western wind etc.), the whole thing based on the general wind directions of our real life earth.I also don't think Dunk will go so far as to change wind speed etc., so it won't even be as complicated as temperatures and climate in TFC ;)
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I think the a simple sail boat is feasible, but the whole concept of wind changing directions aleatory  in minecraft is a lot of effort for the reward.

 

 

As I understand it, the wind won't change directions. I think there will be a fixed wind direction for every chunk based on latitude (e.g. the whole row on chunk x-coordinate 50 will have north wind, the next northern row of chunks will have north-western wind etc.), the whole thing based on the general wind directions of our real life earth.

I also don't think Dunk will go so far as to change wind speed etc., so it won't even be as complicated as temperatures and climate in TFC ;)

 

Posted Image

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Thanks dunk I have been reading this post since start but somehow missed that.

That would really great, and if it cannot make to B79, do you think we will at least have the log carved canoe?

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Thanks dunk I have been reading this post since start but somehow missed that.

That would really great, and if it cannot make to B79, do you think we will at least have the log carved canoe?

Such a feature would probably require a lot of time and testing, and I think we'd prefer to release 79 sooner rather than later :P

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