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Moress

TerraFirma+ : Medicine & Health

73 posts in this topic

Aspirin and morphine are pain killers, and opium is a drug that is in no way good for you.....

I don't see how they can restore health.......

 

Yes, adding too much stuff can get annoying, but on the other hand, it could improve the gameplay a lot.

 

I tend to jump off gaps and just let the fall damage heal up, so I rarely use stairs/ladders to go down from short drops, and I rarely watch where I'm going when I'm going down a mountain/hill/cliff. However, if I can break my legs jumping off 4~5 meter drops all the time, I'll look for a safer way down and I'd use ladder and stairs to go down, even if it's a short fall.

 

I note that practically nobody talks or gives ideas on mental health. Why?

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Because for one thing, mental health system is extremely difficult to pull off and most of the time requires a game to be built considering such a thing from the start, which minecraft is certainly not. What is there to do? Random noises? Things that aren't really there? Noises we can realistically do in minecraft sound engine, but not things - and those could not include juicier stuff along the lines of virtual landslides right under the player's feet, because that's just not how Minecraft is, it'll be more like mobs without a hitbox.  Fumbling and shivering? This is mostly related to fatigue, not insanity.

For another thing, some think that it's not fair to separate an avatar from a person whom it represents. If I myself do not fear zombies or darkness, why does my avatar? What if I myself is afraid of heights instead?

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So you're saying you'll be perfectly fine with being shut in a dark room full of flesh-eating reanimated corpses?

Meh, everyone's different.

 

But it doesn't all have to be hallucinations and stuff, you know?

How about insomnia?

Yes, insanity is not really tied to fumbling and shivering, but stress and anxiety can cause tremors, 

and mental health isn't exactly happy one moment and going insane the other.

I've gotten indigestion from stress, which is really a mental thing.

Nerves can make people forget things, or throw up, and yes, it can make you shiver and fumble things.

 

"If I myself do not fear zombies or darkness, why does my avatar? What if I myself is afraid of heights instead?"

for one thing, if something can hurt you, you probably would feel some degree of fear for it.

For another thing, I eat cooked rice as my main food source, yet my the only thing my avatar can do with rive is brew, bake bread(which isn't very filling), and feed animals.

 

And "some think that it's not fair to separate an avatar from a person whom it represents"

It's a game. I frankly do not feel that the mineraft avatar represents me because we have absolutely nothing in common.

and unless before we start a game/world we get a test/checklist/etc to make the avatar like me, I will never feel that the avatar represents me

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Yes, I also eat rice for my main food, I'd guess 75% of my food intake is rice, but I don't touch the stuff in TFC XD Oh the woes of Euro-centric games, lol. 

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-snip-

I do not fear flesh-eating corpses, but I would run away from 'em to not get eaten myself. And from bad smell too. I'm not even sure what I'm afraid of, actually. Is very graphically imagining of what it would be like if X happened to you confidered as 'being afraid'? If not, "pain, blood loss and tough life-changing decisions" sums it up.

 

You can eat grains if not in b77, but in b78 for sure. That's about the rice part. And speaking of you and your character not having commons, would your character actually do things you would never do being placed in similar circumstances (including the ability to respawn)?

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I do not fear flesh-eating corpses, but I would run away from 'em to not get eaten myself. And from bad smell too. I'm not even sure what I'm afraid of, actually. Is very graphically imagining of what it would be like if X happened to you confidered as 'being afraid'? If not, "pain, blood loss and tough life-changing decisions" sums it up.

 

You can eat grains if not in b77, but in b78 for sure. That's about the rice part. And speaking of you and your character not having commons, would your character actually do things you would never do being placed in similar circumstances (including the ability to respawn)?

You might not fear the zombies themselves, but if there where actual zombies, and lots of them, surrounding your house at night, wouldn't you feel at least a little bit nervous?

 

You don't really eat raw rice grain, you know, you cook it, and it's just as(or in my opinion more) filling as bread or meat.

 

Well, yes. Even if I did respawn after death, I will not just rush out and kill that zombie with my bare fists because dying would hurt a lot, especially if the said death is from being pummeled to death by rotting corpses. I also will not just jump of 'small' falls and just deal with the fall damage. Nor will I actively wander the great unknown looking for more metal and such for fear of getting lost or killed. I will not just starve to death so I can keep my breeding stock alive.

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Aspirin and morphine are pain killers, and opium is a drug that is in no way good for you.....

I don't see how they can restore health.......

 

Yes, adding too much stuff can get annoying, but on the other hand, it could improve the gameplay a lot.

 

I tend to jump off gaps and just let the fall damage heal up, so I rarely use stairs/ladders to go down from short drops, and I rarely watch where I'm going when I'm going down a mountain/hill/cliff. However, if I can break my legs jumping off 4~5 meter drops all the time, I'll look for a safer way down and I'd use ladder and stairs to go down, even if it's a short fall.

 

I note that practically nobody talks or gives ideas on mental health. Why?

 

@AllenWL

 

Morphine / Opium

 

Actually opium was used much for the same purpose morphine is today as the active ingredient is... morphine... what you have today is nothing more or less than the morphine which has been refined from the opium.  Morphine is the Opiate processed from Opium.  It isn't something where more chemicals have to be added to make it, the active ingredient in Morphine (morphine) is already IN opium.  In fact raw opium is still used in western medicine (although not as predominantly as it once was) and widely in less developed parts of the world.  Opium is so far from a 'drug that is in no way good for you' that we refined it and use it in MASSIVE QUANTITIES on a daily basis.  It is like saying that ice is poisonous but water is not really. 

 

As for Morphine not treating any major medical problem we have to take a couple things into account.  In the time frame of this game, if you took an arrow to the stomach, you were going to die.  Even as late as during the American civil war, after battles soldiers would check themselves to see if they had been 'gut shot'... as if you were shot in the stomach, there was nothing that medicine could do for you... they couldn't repair internal organs and if you were gut shot it was time to make peace with whatever god or gods you may happen to believe in, send a letter to momma/wife/kids and get ready to meet your maker.  Given that a single arrow killing you would be really annoying... I doubt that should be incorporated into the game.  That leaves us in a position where we must infer that injuries taken from enemies are not to vital organs and are deep wounds. 

 

Outside of excessive bleeding (which can be fixed by a tightly bound bandage provided it isn't over an artery or something) the biggest problem these injuries cause is pain.  Once again, I know what most people are probably thinking, "pain hurts but it can't kill you right?".  The pain isn't what will kill you, it is more along the lines of what comes after that.  If a human (or any animal really) experiences a great deal... like say being stabbed half a dozen times and taking an arrow through each leg's worth of pain... there is a good chance that they will go into shock.  This is because the body begins to slow down... the heart slows, breathing slows.... and ultimately you collapse in a state of shock.  Assuming that you are probably bleeding from your injuries (internally or externally) blood loss will compound with this... this lack of blood will prevent oxygen from going to your brain... this results in a coma... and given that self treating a coma is just as humorous a concept as it sounds, death is pretty much assured.  With the use of morphine however your body wouldn't have slowed down and the downward spiral wouldn't have started.

 

I suppose an argument could also be made for alcohol in this situation and I would have to concede that you are correct... alcohol was used as a less effective but highly functional alternative for many years.  It would help numb the body to the pain if taken in the more obvious method and could help with sterilizing the wound if applied externally. 

 

 

Aspirin

 

Aspirin is far FAR more than just a painkiller in fact Aspirin is probably the closest thing to a miracle drug that mankind has developed (next to possibly penicillin) in the last 2000 years.  Aspirin helps by lowering fevers and by acting as a blood thinner. 

 

"Blood thinner and fever reducer... That wouldn't help with a broken leg" you say.  Well actually... here is where that basically gets turned on its head.  When you think of a broken leg you think of the cast that is over your leg and about how you limp around for a month or so until the bone mends itself naturally.  Given that this is the telltale sign that someone has broken their leg it becomes easy to understand how that might be construed as a cure... however the real problem with a broken limb isn't the fact that it takes a long time to mend... hell, the concept of a splint and bandages to hold it have been around for many years. The thing is though that if you break a leg and you just align it and bandage it into place well... you are still basically screwed... because of something known as Osteomyelitis what is colloquially known as bone poisoning which is caused by bacteria getting into the bone (a huge risk in the days before sanitation practices).  When your body tries to fight this infection you get a fever, if the fever goes up, your blood pressure goes up... if your blood pressure gets high enough (a real risk in the days before Aspirin) the high fever can cause the cellular structure of your body to break down which would result in either a need for amputation or death.  Convenient how Aspirin solves both the fever and blood pressure issues right?I won't claim that Aspirin would cure the mumps, measles or black death... but it actually does give your body a fighting chance to resist it, a far stretch more than any kind of other natural medicine available at this time. 

 

Outside of these two, Sambucol (elderberry syrup) and possibly Goldenseal (an anti-microbial) there are no medicines that are 'universal' enough not to actually have a specific illness mechanic to overcome and requiring a specific medicine.  And that kind of system would be far more problematic than any kind of benefit it would provide. 

 

Mental Health:

Mental health is a bit much to include, mental health issues (outside of outright insanity... i.e. a man who thinks his REAL name is Spudwick the Ethereal Gopher and who spends his days fist fighting herds of bovines to honor his god, which also happens to be a wheel of cheese... like that kind of insanity) weren't even really recognized until VERY recent history... not to say they weren't problems but no kinds of medication really existed yet and most were attributed to 'possession' or 'outright insanity' (see Spudwick statement above to clarify on definition of insanity).  The treatments used weren't even effective and even most modern treatments are 'meh' in effect.  Just as some example that might be feasible...

 

Nerve Stimulation (male): Men were usually given hot and cold showers, oftentimes simply being dunked into water repeatedly.  Highly ineffective, can cause stress and make the condition even worse.

Nerve Stimulation (female): I will not define exactly how this was done but the doctors sure did know how to put the Rapist in Therapist.  Highly ineffective, ads emotional trauma.  I truly feel sorry for the women in asylums during this time period.

Jitters / Shell Shock: Victims were treated with small doses of cocaine mixed in a tonic, this was actually pretty effect but only treated symptoms not the condition. 

 

There really isn't much that can be done on the mental health side of things, and I have to wonder whether people would actually find it advantageous or detrimental to the game and personally I fall on the side of the second. 

 

 

Note: Being cold getting somebody sick is a common misconception, but the old wives tails do a have a bit of truth in them.  Cold and Flu viruses do not thrive in warm climates and actually do better in cold environments.  Additionally, getting cold when you are already sick can prevent the travel of white blood cells that are needed to fight foreign bodies.  As such why if you stay warm when sick you will get over it quicker... thats boring so lets just call it magic!

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Gah.. Ive been gone too long. So many good ideas! I'll read them soon and post my thoughts. :D

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Mental Health:

  The treatments used weren't even effective and even most modern treatments are 'meh' in effect.  Just as some example that might be feasible...

There really isn't much that can be done on the mental health side of things, and I have to wonder whether people would actually find it advantageous or detrimental to the game and personally I fall on the side of the second. 

Well, we can say that not doing things that make your mental health go down makes it go up.

Things like types of food, books, sleep can help with mental health too. It doesn't have to be 100% like reality, just believable and good.

 

I don't know about advantageous, but I don't think it'll be detrimental.

It's just a matter of balance. If done improperly, hunger, thirst, etc can be detrimental to gameplay as well.

 

I like the idea of mental health, as I feel if done right, it will add extra challenge  and depth to the game.

I like thirst in TFC, because unlike other thirst-oriented mods, it reduces and fills at what I feel is a reasonable amount, and it's actually balanced with other bits of the game.

 

So why can't we do the same with mental health?

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The  problem with mental health is that everyone is different, as a soldier things that don't bother me, would probably bother most other people. Unlike thirst or hunger, these things are pretty much universal, it is difficult to even say what would effect you negatively until it has happened. It is very hard to judge which soldiers will be awesome under fire, or which ones will cry like school girls the first time they get into combat.

 

Not even things like being in a deep dark place is a universal fear, there are many who go spelunking just to be in the deep places of the world. Very few things even translate across cultural boundaries, let alone apply to everyone.

 

So metal health would be taking a crap shoot at making a playable feature, so sticking to physical health would be a wiser approach to the system. But make it modular so that adding mental later is still a possibility.

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Ok, that's about 9 posts and 5 people who think mental health is a bad idea, and I seem to be the only one who really likes it, so I shall drop the subject for the moment.

 

Anyways, build 78 has nutrition tabs, right?

That gave me an idea on infections/germs

 

Basically, the player has a 'infection' bar that starts out empty, but slowly fills up when eating raw/decayed food, getting cuts burns and broken bones, etc

When complealty full, it will mean a 20% deduction on your overall health(basically the same as the 'nutrition' bars, but reversed.) It will decrease with time, or if you eat antibiotics and stuff

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I'm really liking the TFC community so many ideas that would awesome to add, I was thinking about this myself then I saw the post. Awesome.

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Been awhile since one of my posts came up. I would love to redo/revive these, but with the changes in 78, there would be so much to add/remove/change that it will be awhile if at all. But I do like your idea Allenwl

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I have started to revamp the health system using the new level system. Also, due to the high level of disapproval on physcology I have decided to remove that section altogether

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I have started to revamp the health system using the new level system. Also, due to the high level of disapproval on physcology I have decided to remove that section altogether

 

It's not hard disapproval per se. But there's so much disbelief to suspend when doing mental health, I feel it needs not to make an appearance.

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Wikipedia:

Deep partial thickness (Second-degree) Extends into deep (reticular) dermis[10] Yellow or white. Less blanching. May be blistering.[10] Fairly dry[6] Pressure and discomfort[6] 3–8 weeks[10] Scarring, contractures (may require excision and skin grafting)[6]

Full thickness (Third-degree) Extends through entire dermis[10] Stiff and white/brown[10] No blanching[6] Leathery[10] Painless[10] Prolonged (months) and incomplete[10] Scarring, contractures, amputation (early excision recommended)[6]

Fourth-degree Extends through entire skin, and into underlying fat, muscle and bone[10] Black; charred with eschar Dry Painless Requires excision[10] Amputation, significant functional impairment and, in some cases, death.[10]

 

I have excluded the rather graphic images so as not give the mods a headache, but it you like you can see them in the link.

I emphasize the fact that anything deeper than superficial second degree is merely uncomfortable or painless.

 

I love the idea of illness, but I don't think that it should be implemented until the developers get around to overhauling mobs.

 

Bare in mind that ANY thing can be cured simply by dying and respawning, and that should NEVER go away.  There needs to be some sort of way to make this a toss up.  I would recommend the implementation of corpses.  If you die your body will still be where you left with all your stuff (this would be a pleasant way to keep all of your junk from despawning if dying puts you back to spawn and the chunk unloads because you were nomadic for a time).  One can use a shovel on a corpse, and one can right click on a corpse to drag it one block closer to you (make sure you can drag it up a set of stairs), however simply being near the corpse (within several hundred blocks) makes you liable to contract anything it had when it died, touching (dragging) the corpse would give you a good chance to contract things every time you touch it without protecting yourself (maybe introduce body bags?).  One can bury a corpse by dragging it into a 2x1x2 hole and covering it in dirt.  This dirt will be fertile for trees and grass, but can never be used as farmland.  Lastly on can drag the corpse into a 2x1x1 pit kiln and cremate it.  Either option will rid the area of the nearby-contract-illness problem.

 

Then you would need to clean up, anything other than stone that the corpse spent any time on (or was dragged across) would have blood, bile, or other filth soaked into them and carry the same risk as touch when you walk in it, these will need to be mined up and burned, stone and brick can be washed clean with a mop.

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Xervir, I understand very well how burns work, but like the mods have said many times, the Mod is made to be believable, not 100% realistic. So, the point of the damage/lotion cures to burns is to give it a linear issue/solution game play.I'd also like to make sure you understand that 3rd/4th degree burns will have lesser burns in the surrounding area, these will cause quite a bit of pain to the victim.

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Um, do you really need the Illness to give nausea?
 
Because personally, I hate the nausea effect to death because it makes me sick and nauseous myself, and having to stop in the middle of the game and look away so I don't throw up isn't really my favorite thing to do. 
 
But if you think it should be in there, I suppose the best I can do is try to never get sick.
 

 

 

 I would recommend the implementation of corpses.  If you die your body will still be where you left with all your stuff (this would be a pleasant way to keep all of your junk from despawning if dying puts you back to spawn and the chunk unloads because you were nomadic for a time).  One can use a shovel on a corpse, and one can right click on a corpse to drag it one block closer to you (make sure you can drag it up a set of stairs), however simply being near the corpse (within several hundred blocks) makes you liable to contract anything it had when it died, touching (dragging) the corpse would give you a good chance to contract things every time you touch it without protecting yourself (maybe introduce body bags?).  One can bury a corpse by dragging it into a 2x1x2 hole and covering it in dirt.  This dirt will be fertile for trees and grass, but can never be used as farmland.  Lastly on can drag the corpse into a 2x1x1 pit kiln and cremate it.  Either option will rid the area of the nearby-contract-illness problem.

 

Then you would need to clean up, anything other than stone that the corpse spent any time on (or was dragged across) would have blood, bile, or other filth soaked into them and carry the same risk as touch when you walk in it, these will need to be mined up and burned, stone and brick can be washed clean with a mop.

I don't know if the devs would like the idea of blood, bile, and filth.

I mean, in the 'do not post following suggestion' bit, i says "do not suggest topics that may be considered "disgusting" in nature. This includes but is not limited to: feces, urine, genitalia, graphic diseases" I think blood, bile, and filth can be considered 'disgusting' in nature.

 

That aside, I do love the idea of having corpses.

maybe corpses in the water should 'contaminate' the water making it unfit to drink or grow things in?

Also, it would be nice if hostile mobs and animals had corpses too, I think

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AllenWl the hostile mobs corpse gives me a thought about butchering!

 

Never mind, I reread your post about it and realized you already posted about that.

 

Also, I added some more to the different diseases and the causes. And I tried to touch on the "die and respawn" fixes all issue.

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I think that the whole discussions have largely ignored the temperature effects, and body temperature is making its way in 0.79

 

 

 

In Medicine we have these categories (just out of memory)

 

Frostbite - Hypothermia - Cold stress - Euthermia (normal) - Heat stress - Heat shock

 

so how this works is that both Heat shock and Hypothermia will make you faint (or more or less immobile)

 

Heat Shock and Frostbite takes away your health bar

 

Cold Stress and Heat Stress slows you down

 

Heat Stress gives you nausea as well.

 

 

And as someone have made a thread on clothing I'm going to leave it to them to make the solutions for these problems

 

which leaves us to the next topic "Shock"

 

 

In Medicine, we define Shock as the conditions in which the blood fails to pump into the brain, and talking about TFC, there are two types of shock that are highly applicable to the game

 

1. Hemorrhagic Shock

 

2. Hypovolemic Shock

 

 

 

Hemorrhagic Shock happens when you lose too much blood, or health bar in TFC, in here you will gain nausea and slowness since the oxygen fails to be delivered to your brain, the cure will be simple, protein and water, so how this can be applied is that if loosing blood will increase thirst depletion as well. Loosing more health bars also will deplete your health faster the next damage comes, this is actually makes the game more accurate and believeable, IRL, it is almost always the first blow that is going to kill you.

 

Hypovolemic Shock is actually a larger subset of a group of shock that includes hemorrhagic shock, but for TFC purposes, this will be defined as only loosing too much fluid, how? too much heat or diarrhea (can be included in infection effect but not rendered for memory reasons). It will be present as increasing thirst depletion and slowness but no actual health damage until the thirst bar is completely depleted. The cure is simply water, yes Hypovolemic shock is just fancy words for Dehydration. And yes the mod should totally make dehydration as damaging not only slowing. 

 

 

The Last would be Infections, I'm going to try to recap infections and how the RL and the suggestions have been discussed here and try to streamline and make them more applicable into an algorithm

 

Infections in the Stone Age are various but for TFC purposes these should be only two: Cold/Pneumonia and Diarrhea/Dyssentry

 

Why these two? it's simple Cold/Pneumonia is very simple and very easy to catch even in the modern age, and even though the old wives tales are based on the wrong assumptions, but they do have a grain of truth in it, windy weathers carry bacteria and viruses which makes you catch cold, and when not treated, Pneumonia.

 

And then there's Diarrhea/Dysentry, which of course fits like a glove with the concept of decaying food.

 

So how do these be treated? No antibiotics since that wouldn't be believable let alone realistic, cavemen fought infections by relying on their own immune system, so it can only be healed by a balanced nutrition and of course certain herbs that ails some of the symptoms, peppermint for the cold, and charcoal extract for the diarrhea

 

Both diseases will give you slow effect, but only diarrhea give you nausea, and diarrhea also will give you a chance to vomit (eating will actually deplete the hunger bar), and gives you dehydration effect as well.

 

And of course both should include fever which depletes the hunger bar faster than normally would, we wouldn't want to emulate this too deeply since that will take a toll on the processing power, and it may be ailed with some other extracts or sleeping in the bed for a whole day.

 

 

Of course if the stamina bar eventually makes it to this mod, the nausea and slowing effect can just be emulated over there, making the whole concepts much easier.

 

EDIT: Just as the previous commenters have said, higher levels will give you better immunity, you know to keep people from killing themselves.

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I had an idea for Herbalism and medicine just now, not sure if it's been suggested yet but this seems like a fine thread to put it in rather then just making a new one. Sorry if this is too much of a necropost.

How about making a system similar to the current food system, where there is a block (probably made on a surface by right clicking with a mortar and pestle) where you can add items to the interface, press a button and it makes a meal-like item with a few stats that determine its effectiveness.

 

 

You can also have a few options, where the medicine item is taken externally in the form of a salve, which can optionally be applied to a bandage first to make it more effective, or internally in the form of a potion. Salves and potions would have the following stats to determine their effectiveness:

 

Restorative, which causes salve to heal wounds faster, and potions to increase overall health regeneration.

 

Fragrance (which in a modern setting would more accurately be called anti-bacterial) which determines how effective salves are at healing wound-infections, and potions at how effective they are at healing illness.

 

Bitterness, which determines if the potion/salve causes a negative effect in addition to the positive. This would be decreased by increasing your herbalism skill.

 

 

Additionally, there could be a number of herbs added which when used in salves/potions have higher amounts of the three stats then other items, such as food. (Note that this would include bitterness as well)

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And there is rust. i dont know if it can make wounds worse but it can really chafe and cut skin, imagine a rusty sword through you   :blink: . Oh wait! mobs like zombies can have rusted swords and javelin skeles can have rusty  spears, and dont forget about zombie infection

Edited by KyleMan
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Maybe like Antibiotics hav a chance to give bowel diseases(because it kills bacterias,which means it can kill bowel bacteria)

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