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EnTro

Metric vs imperial

62 posts in this topic

I believe it's time for TFC to turn to the dark side and adopt the metric system for food amounts instead of the ounce!Why?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7x-RGfd0Yk 

I understand many Americans (and some others) still use imperial system, but it's time to move on and take the imperial system from the proverbial life support.

 

http://theoatmeal.com/pl/senior_year/science

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Dunk tried to get me to do the same thing to no avail. I have some concept of temperature and distance in metric, but not food. Since I have to maintain the food and balance it, i'm not going to be working in a unit of measurement that i don't get. Also weather dealing in grams or kilograms, it ends up making all the measurements take more ui space and ends up looking ugly. I actually wrote some code at one point to convert all the ounce readings for food into grams and kilograms and it was terrible looking. So nope, this won't be happening.

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I had to actually look up what 'oz' meant when I saw it. First thing my brain came up with was 'the wizard of'.

 

As a reference for food: a typical (advised) dinner would be 200g vegetables, 200g rice/potatoes/pasta/... and 150g meat. That's roughly 8oz vegetables, 8oz rice/... and 6oz meat.

The length difference there is 3 characters, can't imagine that would mess up much, unless of course you compare 2oz and 56.7g. To prevent that I'd use a conversion factor of 1oz -> 25g, 40oz -> 1kg. Close enough to get a feeling for day to day use.

 

Too bad it's not happening anyway.

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You could just keep it unitless and use a number that works well.

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Hey, imperial units make sense for a game set in the stone age.

 

:D

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I like the metric system as well, but I think imperial units add more flavour for a survival game. They're more old fashioned. It's not exactly science here, so we don't need the metric system.

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Technically you can not convert a force unit (an ounce) in to a mass unit (a gram) because a force is not a mass.

If it did go to the metric system it should use Newtons the unit of force for the metric system.

 

1 ounce is approximately .3 Newtons.

 

 

But the units that are in the imperial system are easy to create because the ones mentioned in that video are based on seeds. Although the naming conventions could be better for the imperial system.

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How can ounces be a force unit? Aren't they on food labels and stuff as an indicator of weight in the us? Forgive my ignorance, but I live in Australia and have no idea how the imperial system actually works beyond a couple basic conversions.

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Technically you can not convert a force unit (an ounce) in to a mass unit (a gram) because a force is not a mass.

If it did go to the metric system it should use Newtons the unit of force for the metric system.

 

1 ounce is approximately .3 Newtons.

 

 

But the units that are in the imperial system are easy to create because the ones mentioned in that video are based on seeds. Although the naming conventions could be better for the imperial system.

Ounces were used wherever, look it up. They aren't actually a specific thing, more like a 1/12th part of something.

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An once is 1/ 12th of a Roman pound which is a force unit.

 

An ounce is a force unit because it is 1 / 12th of a force unit. A spring scale scale reads the normal force(acting on the object) which is the same magnitude of the weight if the object is not on a ramp and not accelerating in the direction of weight or the normal force. Technically any thing you measure withe a spring scale is a force but it usually can convert it into mass assuming it is on earth.

 

That is how an ounce is a force unit force unit. Mass and weight are different.Weight is based on a planets acceleration due to gravity value. Mass is just a property of an object that is usually constant for an object that you do not take away parts of it.

 

Weight = mass*(acceleration due to gravity) -> Weight/(acceleration due to gravity) = mass.

Any of the force to mass conversions assume that object you are talking about is on earth around sea level because there can be noticeable changes in the acceleration due to gravity at large distances from the center of the earth technically you have to use the equation to get the mass of the object and then you have to use a conversion factor to convert it to another mass unit. Because the acceleration due to gravity should always be approximatley the same value most people on Earth most poeple just use Earth's sea level conversion factor.

 

The shortcut conversion factor from force to an other mass unit would only work on earth. You would get the wrong values if you tried this with weight measured on the moon. You could create you own conversion factor from the moon surface by solving for the mass in kg one time and use your answer for the conversion factor from ounces to grams on the moon

 

The imperial system unit of mass is a slug.

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I could have used a fake unit of measurement and all this imperial sucks BS wouldn't come up. It really doesn't matter what unit is used. I'm electing to not support grams/kilograms for a few reasons. Chief among them is a loss in precision when changing the display amount i.e.(10oz = 283.49523125g, and if I round it to a number with a manageable size: 283g = 9.982531231731257). I'm really not comfortable with that and I'm not going to have super long numbers all over the place. 0 chance of this happening, sorry guys.

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To be honest, I think I'm going to end up siding with Bioxx here. If the conversion between the two units was simpler, I might be more for adding a config or changing it entirely, but after discussing it with him, I've changed my mind. As a Canadian and therefore the US's neighbour, I might have an easier time with imperial than people from other countries- in all honesty most people talk about weight and height in pounds, feet and inches up here- so I may have a bit of an easier time accepting it than others. That said, I still think it's a valid decision for the mod. My support for metric mainly stems from it's clean cooperation with other units, in fact I'm probably more in favour of SI than metric, but that's a different argument.

 

I don't think ounces were necessarily the best choice of unit from the start [base 16 :/], but it's going to be sticking around. I don't want to see this turn into an argument about which system is better, because that isn't the driving force behind this decision and attacking someone else's system gains nothing.

 

Best suggestion I can give for someone unfamiliar with ounces is to try and find examples of common items with convenient oz weights, as points of reference.

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No insult intended to the imperial system. It _does_ actually fit to the historical frame of the game and made sense back then. For day to day use it's fine, but do keep it out of modern science, engineering and primary units in education.

 

Loss of precision/long numbers is only an argument if you take the oz as a start point. Start with the g/kg and the same argument works the other way around.

 

For the discussion on the unit of ounces: wikipedia lists it as a unit for mass, volume, length and force, each with there own (equally valid) definition. For mass measurements an ounce is defined in at least 10 different ways, ranging between 25 g (metric ounce) and 100g (dutch ounce).

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Personally, I don't really care about what units are used, that doesn't matter in a world like minecraft. We think the block is a cubic meter because average human is somewhere around 1.75 meters high, but there's no proof or otherwise that we are right.

And what is 'a stack' even? Just quantity of singular items? Okay then, what is a single gunpowder?

 

Those items might as well be measured in actual Great Wizards of the Oz, this won't make a damn bit of difference.

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To be honest, I think I'm going to end up siding with Bioxx here. If the conversion between the two units was simpler, I might be more for adding a config or changing it entirely, but after discussing it with him, I've changed my mind. As a Canadian and therefore the US's neighbour, I might have an easier time with imperial than people from other countries- in all honesty most people talk about weight and height in pounds, feet and inches up here- so I may have a bit of an easier time accepting it than others. That said, I still think it's a valid decision for the mod. My support for metric mainly stems from it's clean cooperation with other units, in fact I'm probably more in favour of SI than metric, but that's a different argument.

 

I don't think ounces were necessarily the best choice of unit from the start [base 16 :/], but it's going to be sticking around. I don't want to see this turn into an argument about which system is better, because that isn't the driving force behind this decision and attacking someone else's system gains nothing.

 

Best suggestion I can give for someone unfamiliar with ounces is to try and find examples of common items with convenient oz weights, as points of reference.

 

 

Yes, as a US neighbor you have an easier time dealing with imperial units. For the rest of the world except the island monkeys, it means nothing at all. It's like an arbitrary number I cannot use for anything. It's problematic because whilst US citizens might have an idea how much 14oz is compared to 4 pounds is, it returns nothing at all to my brain computer. I cannot immerse myself into any aspect concerning weight in the game at all. Even a fantasy-system would be tons better, as long as it was kept consistent. Consistency of course being the core of the weight issue. I make an important assumption here, which is that metadata such as "light, heavy, medium" is supposed to later be replaced with actual weight values much like food and drink(?) currently works. Also there is no debate about what system is better, there is an obvious answer to this.

 

Bioxx excuse of using a proper functional system resulting in many numbers is odd to say at least. Because it's blatantly wrong. First of there is the option of rounding to the closest appropriate value, that be gram, deci-, hecta- or kilogram (in g: 1,10,100,1000, you just learned the metric weight system!). Or even better: Scrap the current exact weight and use round metric weights instead. For instance everything could be rounded to hectograms. For reference a cabbage is typically 12h, a hammer would weight about 50h.

 

I understand that there are technical limitations on what prefix you can choose, such as the mentioned issue with the base of 16. But honestly then you are better off inventing a consistent system yourself (16=1whatever and then put a weight on stuff as you see fit) than attempting to use a non-consistent system (the difference between prefixes is not constant). I'm trying not to rant here, but it's hard when the developer of a game I really like openly says that he supports what I consider one of the games bigger flaws.

 

Another idea is to use oz on everything. From large rocks to knifes. That way I will develop a sense of how heavy things are in-game, without having to google every-day objects for it's different imperial weight prefixes. Once you tell me a hammer is 2 pounds and a cabbage is 25 oz is when I assume the fetal position with a thumb in my mouth. Crying.

 

For everyone not having a good grasp of the metric system, I recommend this short american guide. Please click this link, maybe just scroll quickly at look at the drawings.

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The game is set in the stone age,  so I don't mind them using medieval units of measurement that make no sense :3 

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Temperature might be harder for Americans to grasp. However I see temperature as being simpler to translate between C and F as it's only one prefix. It should be possible to have an option where if the option is toggled then temperature = F - 32 * 5/9 for instance 50F becomes 50 - 32 * 5/9 = 10C and then C is displayed. This is harder to do on weight for reasons somewhat states in OPs video. I hope our input is being used to making a better game.

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The game is set in the stone age,  so I don't mind them using medieval units of measurement that make no sense :3 

 

Except the imperial system is a modern system used by the modern manufacture industries, not a medieval system. Older weight systems usually had a base, and then this base was either divided or multiplied into other values depending on what number-system was being used at the time. The imperial system is a mixture that "happened" over a long span of time. If the excuse is that the game is set in the stone-age (it's obviously not since we use metals...) then why are you not in favor of a fantasy-system?

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Loss of precision/long numbers is only an argument if you take the oz as a start point. Start with the g/kg and the same argument works the other way around.

This says pretty much all

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Yes, as a US neighbor you have an easier time dealing with imperial units. For the rest of the world except the island monkeys, it means nothing at all. It's like an arbitrary number I cannot use for anything. It's problematic because whilst US citizens might have an idea how much 14oz is compared to 4 pounds is, it returns nothing at all to my brain computer. I cannot immerse myself into any aspect concerning weight in the game at all. Even a fantasy-system would be tons better, as long as it was kept consistent. Consistency of course being the core of the weight issue. I make an important assumption here, which is that metadata such as "light, heavy, medium" is supposed to later be replaced with actual weight values much like food and drink(?) currently works. Also there is no debate about what system is better, there is an obvious answer to this.Bioxx excuse of using a proper functional system resulting in many numbers is odd to say at least. Because it's blatantly wrong. First of there is the option of rounding to the closest appropriate value, that be gram, deci-, hecta- or kilogram (in g: 1,10,100,1000, you just learned the metric weight system!). Or even better: Scrap the current exact weight and use round metric weights instead. For instance everything could be rounded to hectograms. For reference a cabbage is typically 12h, a hammer would weight about 50h.I understand that there are technical limitations on what prefix you can choose, such as the mentioned issue with the base of 16. But honestly then you are better off inventing a consistent system yourself (16=1whatever and then put a weight on stuff as you see fit) than attempting to use a non-consistent system (the difference between prefixes is not constant). I'm trying not to rant here, but it's hard when the developer of a game I really like openly says that he supports what I consider one of the games bigger flaws.Another idea is to use oz on everything. From large rocks to knifes. That way I will develop a sense of how heavy things are in-game, without having to google every-day objects for it's different imperial weight prefixes. Once you tell me a hammer is 2 pounds and a cabbage is 25 oz is when I assume the fetal position with a thumb in my mouth. Crying.For everyone not having a good grasp of the metric system, I recommend this short american guide. Please click this link, maybe just scroll quickly at look at the drawings.

I understand what you are saying, however, as an American, I've have been taught both the Metric and Imperial systems and I find some of your reasoning flawed. For, it is the same for us Americans and two wrongs do not make a right. We find it difficult to conceive the product of grams and kilograms and especially hectogram (This unit is rarely used here if at all, I did not know it existed till my middle school years)

It is the unfortunate aspect of having a creator who was taught this way as well as the programming aspects of using Metric over Imperial for him that make this untouchable. The conversions from oz to grams or kg is the wackiest of the measuring bunch as it cannot be visually represented accurately like meters can be, it doesn't have common reference points like the boiling or freezing of water like Celsius, and both measures don't even mean the same thing literally (force vs mass) [N.B. this is why the Metric system has to have a PHYSICAL representation to define the Kilogram. The link shows one in the form of a silicon sphere: http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2007/August/Redefiningthekilo.asp ]I feel sorry for those who do not live in the US, for this is not fair to those people who vastly outnumber us on this opinion. However, until America decides it's worth the cost to change all our road signs and ignore the complains of the zealous Imperial proposers, we can all blame Obama.THANKS OBAMA!As to using a fake system to account for the weight of food, I return back to my previous argument of our ability to compare these measurements and I warn everyone from saying, "Why don't we scrap the weight system give the food a number of 'uses' instead?" This ignores the point of using weight in TFC, to account for exact losses in our food rotting system. Unless food is given quantity enough of "uses" to warrant that, the depreciation of food to rot would be undermine by the small durability per food.The only fair solution I can see is to create a fake weight system that confuses both Imperial and Metric users. What's fair isn't always smart.

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I'm pretty sure the US has actually officially ratified that the metric system is their system of measurement because of some international treaty or something, it's just that they avoid implementing it because its expensive and would cause some public dissonance

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Say, does it really matter?

 

Whatever works works, right?

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Well, it's just a computer game, nothing really matters. I'm sure the game will be just as awesome whether it measures in 'g'/'oz'/'lbs'/'bioxx-food-units' or 'garghls'.

It's just that from a society POV I believe that phasing out the use of imperial units will happen and also should happen. The sooner, the better.

"The most logical explanation, however, just may be the failure of Congress to make the metric system mandatory in all 50 states, the District of Columbia and its territories. By making conversion voluntary in all major legislation since 1866, the U.S. has failed to restrict the use of traditional units in transactions that touch the daily lives of ordinary citizens. Until that mandate comes -- and it will likely come soon if the U.S. is to remain competitive with growing economic powers, such as China and India -- many Americans will continue to think in terms of inches and pounds instead of meters and kilograms."

- http://science.howstuffworks.com/why-us-not-on-metric-system4.htm

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For, it is the same for us Americans and two wrongs do not make a right. We find it difficult to conceive the product of grams and kilograms and especially hectogram (This unit is rarely used here if at all, I did not know it existed till my middle school years)

As to using a fake system to account for the weight of food, I return back to my previous argument of our ability to compare these measurements and I warn everyone from saying, "Why don't we scrap the weight system give the food a number of 'uses' instead?" This ignores the point of using weight in TFC, to account for exact losses in our food rotting system. Unless food is given quantity enough of "uses" to warrant that, the depreciation of food to rot would be undermine by the small durability per food.The only fair solution I can see is to create a fake weight system that confuses both Imperial and Metric users. What's fair isn't always smart.

 

When you have a fantasy-weight system you get an in-game idea of how much stuff weights, You know that five minecraft cabbages weigh roughly the same as one minecraft hammer. Everything is minecraft values, and as such it adds another layer of learning into the game. If so, I suggest the weight to be "stone" and then one regular stone could weigh "1."

 

I just quickly want to add that the constant costs of conversion-errors are way higher than the short-term conversion costs.

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When you have a fantasy-weight system you get an in-game idea of how much stuff weights, You know that five minecraft cabbages weigh roughly the same as one minecraft hammer. Everything is minecraft values, and as such it adds another layer of learning into the game. If so, I suggest the weight to be "stone" and then one regular stone could weigh "1."

 

I just quickly want to add that the constant costs of conversion-errors are way higher than the short-term conversion costs.

 I never said it would be impossible for all of us to come to understand what the units mean, I stated that It would confuse us. At first, players may not know the value of a unit, but it can be quick compartmentalized. The unit could be converted to lb or kg, but players will not have the incentive to associate them. This is kinda like relearning units of measure and the speed in which it is adapted depends on the number of new units that exist. 

 

Using "stone" or any other unit could work, you just have to inflate the unit to a reasonable amount per item (to allow room to work with) and it would be all the same to everyone after a time. 

 

Lastly, I do not understand what you mean about conversion-errors, mind rephrasing or explaining what you mean?

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