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Wayward

Ideas about food preservation.

125 posts in this topic

Ceramic Vessel (NOT LARGE) - All Foods

Salt - Meat

Brining - Not a method of food preservation

Pickling - All Foods except those in the Grain Category

Smoking/Drying - Meat & Cheese

Cooking - All Foods

 

For grains, leaving them in the refined state means they decay at the same rate as cheese and raw eggs (super duper slow)

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Looks like fruits and veggies can do with some more preserving methods.

 

Hmm, the only way I can really think of for preserving fruits in the TFC-timeline is jam, drying, pickling, and freezing, and pickling is already possible, and jam got a definite no..

Don't see how we can freeze something, so... 

 

Ok... a drying rack that can't smoke food but can also dry fruits and veggies made of wood/sticks?

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Fruits and veggies can be pickled in vinegar. It's grains which (still) get the short straw here.

 

I'm a little confused as to why cooking+pickling/salting (×0.75 * ×0.75 = ×0.5625) is slightly worse than just pickling/salting (×0.5). Does this reflect some real-world drawback of pickling or salting cooked food?

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Looks like fruits and veggies can do with some more preserving methods.

 

Hmm, the only way I can really think of for preserving fruits in the TFC-timeline is jam, drying, pickling, and freezing, and pickling is already possible, and jam got a definite no..

Don't see how we can freeze something, so... 

 

Ok... a drying rack that can't smoke food but can also dry fruits and veggies made of wood/sticks?

 

Let me stop you right there.... for one, freezing is essentially already in the game, since food decays slower in colder temperatures. For two, with the current methods that are already available, it is already more than easy to preserve all of your fruits and vegetables to the point where you never have to worry about running out again. Adding even more methods would just make it even easier, and we do want to retain at least some sort of difficulty, or why implement decay in the first place? Finally, the primary reason that it appears that meat has more preservation methods available than the other foods is because meat has a higher base decay rate all on its own. If you take a piece of fresh, raw meat, and a piece of fresh fruit and let them sit in your inventory, the meat is going to decay much faster. Because of this, meat needs more preservation methods in order to even get it on the same level as fruits and vegetables have to start with.

 

A good chunk of the preservation methods in TFC were not added for the sole purpose of helping stop decay, and in fact, drying/vessel storage are the only two methods that do only that. For every single other preservation method, taste is affected as well, so players will use them not only to help food last a bit longer, but also to change the way the food tastes so it better matches their taste profile.

 

 

Fruits and veggies can be pickled in vinegar. It's grains which (still) get the short straw here.

 

I'm a little confused as to why cooking+pickling/salting (×0.75 * ×0.75 = ×0.5625) is slightly worse than just pickling/salting (×0.5). Does this reflect some real-world drawback of pickling or salting cooked food?

 

The cooking drawback was added because while cooking meat in real life does help preserve it, the opposite happens for the majority of fruits and vegetables. Rather than set up a whole set of special case code specifically for meat versus vegetables, we just made it so that your cooked pickled green beans decay an itty bitty tiny bit faster than raw pickled green beans, and the same happens for meat.

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I agree that we have enough preservation methods in the game, but it sounds so silly to pickle bananas, that I think is reason enough to come up with drying mats for fruits. They could be made of straw but needed to be weaved. If you don't want to make it too simple, make it so it takes several days to dry the fruits, and we need to collect it every night and also if it starts raining. 

It would add to the game, 

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We actually did quite a bit of research in pickling before adding it to the game, and in reality pickling bananas might seem silly to you, but it's actually quite common (Guineos en Escabeche).

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 It is the modern process of canning that makes jams last for a long time.

not quite correct, fruit preserves have been around for a long time. preserves have been traced back to the 16th century in europe and even further back in in other countries. so period wise it still fits inline with many other features of tc but as you said, its up to the developer.

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not quite correct, fruit preserves have been around for a long time. preserves have been traced back to the 16th century in europe and even further back in in other countries. so period wise it still fits inline with many other features of tc but as you said, its up to the developer.

 

The fruit preserves of that time period took an extremely long time to complete, and were such an extensive process that adding it to the game would just be adding more tedium, and not a mechanic that would actually be worth doing.

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living and learning. I had no idea that someone would actually pickle bananas, thanks TFC for teaching me one more thing. I still think it would be a good idea to add dry fruits to the game. Needed? I would have to say no, since we have the option of pickling, worth to have? definitely YES. 

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Except that drying fruit really doesn't do anything to the flavor profile. It might intensify the existing flavors, but it doesn't change the relationship between the flavors. Fruit is also one of the easiest foods in the game, since all you have to do is find the initial plant, and then it's set it and forget it. Unlike crops, you don't have to worry about moving the plants around for rotating nutrients, or replanting the crop after each harvest and waiting for it to grow again. In my experience, a single harvest from a bunch of berry bushes and fruit trees and I have more than enough fruit to last me until it's harvest time next year.

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The fruit preserves of that time period took an extremely long time to complete, and were such an extensive process that adding it to the game would just be adding more tedium, and not a mechanic that would actually be worth doing.

that there is where i agree with you but forgot to mention it, the game mechanics in order to implement to make it work may not be feasible and more to the point "believable". however, there may be another approach for fruits that may not of been considered, alcohol.

 

there is already brandy i believe, even though i am not sure of its uses ingame other than getting sloshed, so is there any reason why not to expand on that and add various wines and other beverages of alcoholic nature?

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i think you could preserve milk much longer if from the bucket you could put it in a glass bottle, and then pasteurize it by puting the precinted bottle into a boiling water bucket.

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Milk already doesn't decay as long as its in a barrel.

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yeah but if you put it in a barrel must decay, becouse even if it's closed it can decay and if you think about is a little OP and not reallistic. My family had a farm IRL and i know how difficult is to face milk's decay if it's not esterilitzed

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It doesn't decay in a barrel because otherwise the code gets too complicated. And TFC isn't trying to be realistic. Milk not decaying is perfectly believable, considering that the only thing that liquid milk is used for is making cheese, which is also an extremely slow decaying food.

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yeah, i know programming and it will be quite complicated to make variables for every single block in the world, apart from the FPS performance drops, and i think it's a waste of time, at least for this foolishness.

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I think dried food should shrink but is more saturated with nutrition. The water's gone, so... Yah. It shrinks. In the game Unreal World, a raw pike weighs ~7 lbs while a smoked(and therefore dried) weighs less than 2 lbs. I think that makes sense. The effect would be different for each item, though. And that's what I think will put you off this idea. Is it worth the change?

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There is no "nutrition density" in TFC though, and the weight system is just there so you have an idea of how much you eat. No matter what you are eating (except for sandwiches where you consume the whole thing) you always eat 5 ounces, and you always have a stomach capacity of 24 ounces. It doesn't matter if you eat 5 ounces of beef, or 5 ounces of pork, they both refill the "protein" by the exact same amount, and eating 5 ounces of apples would fill the "fruit" bar by that same amount as well. The only time that nutrition gain isn't a flat increase for what you eat is when you consume salads and sandwiches, at which point the taste is taken into consideration, and the player will gain residual nutrition based on how tasty the meal is, and their current nutrition levels. What's actually in the sandwich/salad doesn't really matter as long as it tastes good.

 

In TFC, turning grains into bread doubles the weight of the food, and therefore doubles how much you can eat, and therefore how much total nutrition you get from consuming the entire thing. With the current system, there is absolutely no benefit to decreasing the weight of an item, since that just means you eat less, meaning you get less from the food. There also is no saturation in TFC except for when eating tasty sandwiches and salads.

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... ok

Will there be 'nutrition density'? What's in my head is that every food item have a nutrition count. I don't think adding another double/integer to every food item's data will cause much harm. That's only 8 byte/bit(forgot which one) per item. Plus, it's only modified everytime the item changes form or weight. Decay doesn't affect the count.

yay im chatting with kitty again

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There's no plan for it. The system is complicated enough as it is, add adding more complexity doesn't really add anything to the gameplay at it's current state. Players aren't really going to take into consideration "Oh this orange has more nutrition than this apple, so I should eat it and let the apple rot!" If anything, the only advantage I see to implementing the system is being able to store more food within a single inventory slot, which we were already trying to avoid by making changes such as decreasing how much food a vessel slot can hold.

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By decreasing the weight of an item, you can have more nutrition from a single slot. That's what I've been trying to convey the whole time here! Why didn't I think harder sooner... And by nutrition count I mean that differently processed item have different nutrition value. So an apple is as nutritious as an orange, but lower than a dried apple and higher than a cooked apple.

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Right, and what I'm saying is that as it currently is, the amount of nutrition that you get from a single 160 ounce stack of food is already fairly OP. We've taken measures to decrease how much nutrition you can store in one slot, why do you think we want to add something that would just increase it again?

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We've taken measures to decrease how much nutrition you can store in one slot...

... So that's your point. If that's the case, then just shrink the item without any nutrition changes. That gives less nutrition per raw food(edit: and stores the same amount of nutrition that raw food stores). It's a fair trade-off for decreased decay rate and a different taste.

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Except that drying food doesn't change the taste. It might intensify it a little bit, but the taste in essence doesn't change. So the only difference between a dried apple and a regular apple would be the decay rate.

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Ooo...kay.

 

So, is the shrinking dried food idea taken for *your* consideration? 

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