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Differentiate between cave-in cobblestone and the building block

40 posts in this topic

Dry stone construction required a great deal of shaping of the stones for puzzle- like fits. For this to require advanced tools is pretty sensible. The Inca, for example, used bronze tools. But most prehistoric peoples lived in homes made of some combination of sticks, mud, straw, leaves, and leather.

 

Two weeks ago I used the dry-stone method to build a 4x3x2 foot fire pit, it required no tools and it took me 3 hours.I understand that the goal is believability, but I have difficulty believing that a guy who can haul around  hundreds of 1 meter cubes of stone and craft a wooden house with thatched roof using nothing but stone axes is unable to stack some rocks.

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I built a dry stack retaining wall (more delineation than actual soil retention) lining both sides of my driveway at my last house. They were flared at the end, about 25' long, 2' at their highest, and tapered into natural ground as the driveway ascended. The digging prep took part of one day (nothin' but clay where I live, hard as heck to break through, had to rent a high HP tiller), and laying the stone & backfill took another day, all with my wife helping. I don't recall the stone type, but it was a thick slate cut specifically for dry stacking. We had two large pallets delivered, about 4' high each, maybe 3' diameter.

 

Anyway, I don't think there's any doubt that dry stacking can be done, has been done, and is still totally a thing. While I'm not a low tech building expert, I am fairly confident that people did not actually dwell in houses with tall dry stack walls. There are simply too many kinds of mortar available worldwide to take that risk. Whether using an actual lime-based mortar, adobe, or cow dung and straw (for insulation if nothing else), something went between those rocks.

 

The reason I support this idea is because while I enjoy teching up through the metal ages, I just love a rustic country house. I could have completely dominated my map, and I'd still live in a cobblestone and thatch house somewhere in a valley, where the sheep may safely graze. More low tech options, even just for aesthetics, are plus's for me.

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Anyway, I don't think there's any doubt that dry stacking can be done, has been done, and is still totally a thing. While I'm not a low tech building expert, I am fairly confident that people did not actually dwell in houses with tall dry stack walls. There are simply too many kinds of mortar available worldwide to take that risk. Whether using an actual lime-based mortar, adobe, or cow dung and straw (for insulation if nothing else), something went between those rocks.

 

Google Skara Brae and Knap of Howar. They are ancient Scottish settlements that used dry-stone construction in houses and other buildings.Mortar was more important in cultures that created bricks from fired clay or shaped rocks. These materials were expensive to create and mortar was used as a sacrificial binder meant to break instead of the bricks as the building aged or experienced structural stress. Areas with abundant unshaped stone appropriate for dry-stone work were less concerned about protecting their building material.

 

 

How about only letting cobblestone that's not placed by the player be affected by gravity? The same way as leaves placed by the player don't decay.Don't know if that's easier to code than adding new recipes and blocks or not, but that way it doesn't affect cave-ins and it's still usable as a building block.

Fit's with the idea of randomly placed rocks causing a cave-in versus being able to carefully place rocks so they support each-other.

 

If the devs do add some kind of dry-stone block, I think it should be affected by gravity the same way as old TFC cobblestone. There's no mortar to hold it in place, but the player has arranged the rock pieces well enough to make a wall greater than 1m.

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I have another suggestion. Loose cobblestone / Compact cobblestone

 

Loose cobblestone = exactly the one we have now

Compact cobblestone = the old cobblestone, made from Cobble, which is a rock shaped a bit by knapping

 

Knapping recipe for Cobble

 

XOOOX

OOOOO

OOOOO

OOOOO

XOOOX

 

This mechanism is intended to make players craft just as much cobble as they need, as it taks a while to make it. SO it's not OP at all.

Feedback?

 

Edit: probably the Compact cobble will have a different look, slightly blockyer

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I am not sure how knapping a block a bit would make it more sturdy or densely packed. Other than that, having type of cobblestone as have now, that's 'natural' and one which is player-made is exactly what this suggestin is about. I think I still would prefer of making the latter to be made using current recipe, while loose/cave-in cobblestone (which basically would amount to rubble) would simply turn into bunch of rocks upon being mined out.

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Use planks to scaffold the walls and keep them up. 

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Perhaps a simple, 4 cobble blocks in a 2x2 square yields 4 "drystone" blocks, affected only by vertical gravity.

 

Would honor TFC mechanics, I believe, and be a very simple mod to make if the developers aren't keen on it.

 

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Also something people seem to be ignoring is TFC is not about realism, it is about pseudo realism.  Just because something happens a certain way in real life doesn't mean TFC will add it.  They must weigh together the work it would take coding to the gameplay it would add or detract from.  Mortared cobblestone sounds like a good idea, especially if it's just a matter of crafting clay together with 3 rocks. If you want more early game build materials get the extrafirmacraft addon, it allows you to craft and dry adobe.  

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They must weigh together the work it would take coding to the gameplay it would add or detract from.

Then this suggestion shouldn't be a problem - it's a thing easy to add, making gameplay more attractive to some and it is both realistic and believable. In fact, it's what we already had and which was only changed to accomodate aspect of mining and cave-ins. Adding dry stone maintains that effect while providing access to what we had.
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Posted ImageAre you sure we can't build houses out of cobble?

 

I vote for the mortared cobble due to this

:Cobblestone architecture refers to the use of cobblestones embedded in mortar as method for erecting walls on houses and commercial buildings.

 

But you can build that in TFC as it is.  Just like with real building, you just need to use scaffolding.  Thatch cheaply and easily fills this role.  If you're really worried about later collapse, just hit the cobble up with a chisel (if you'd like, think of it as fine tuning the supporting rocks, which is fairly realistic).  Yes, it's more time consuming, but who builds castles out of cobble?  In real life, you have to put these things together with care, or they will collapse on you.

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If you're really worried about later collapse, just hit the cobble up with a chisel

I am fairly sure that chiseling any decent amount of blocks leads to them being quite demanding on the system, if you mean detailing. Kind of the same problem with 'reinforcing' structure with number of planks. Making even a regular house, yet alone a castle would be a nightmare for some players, optifine and other such things included. Not to mention the fact that it does seem more like workaround for unnecessary limitation (which wasn't even planned as far as I know, just side effect of changes for the sake of mining) rather than a way to fix it.Still, nice of you to share ideas. Though I hope for someone to point out what would be the issue with above idea as i really don't see much problem - also 'work-required-wise' - with just adding copy of cobblestone that'd be using current cobblestone crafting recipe and would work like how it did before.
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I like the idea of having cobble as a construction material back in the game.

I like the idea that it would be affected by gravity so only vertical structures.

I like the idea of crafting using mortar.

Yes In Real Life we have some huge old constructions made with dry stone alone, but the civilizations that build then had metal tools.

I don't think stone age men build castles.

prehistoric buildings were made of adobe or wood.

So if you want to build with cobble advance enough at least to have a saw.

That said I think adobe blocks should be added for early game purpose. but only for vertical structures 

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I am fairly sure that chiseling any decent amount of blocks leads to them being quite demanding on the system, if you mean detailing. Kind of the same problem with 'reinforcing' structure with number of planks. Making even a regular house, yet alone a castle would be a nightmare for some players, optifine and other such things included. Not to mention the fact that it does seem more like workaround for unnecessary limitation (which wasn't even planned as far as I know, just side effect of changes for the sake of mining) rather than a way to fix it.Still, nice of you to share ideas. Though I hope for someone to point out what would be the issue with above idea as i really don't see much problem - also 'work-required-wise' - with just adding copy of cobblestone that'd be using current cobblestone crafting recipe and would work like how it did before.

 

Stylistically, castles tend to be made of the bricks rather than cobble.  But really, the chiseling is optional; you can build without it.  And even if you want the assurance of a chiseled block, you need only chisel a few key blocks to stabilize the whole structure.  

 

I wouldn't be sad if they added a non-gravity cobble, but I actually do enjoy the challenge of building with gravity.  And there's nothing one can't build with the current cobble.

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 And there's nothing one can't build with the current cobble.

Cobble bridges, or a cobble floor on a house with a basement are a few things that are hard to make.

I mean, you can add another layer below the cobble, but.....

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I have been reading this topic for a few days now, as i have a construction background in RL this type of discussion attracts my attention.

 

Even though i like the idea of having a type of cobblestone that you can build up as wall, having been on many construction sites i know this is not quite how things work. Most of the posted pictures for example needed quite a lot of scafolding to erect from the ground up, regardless of what materials are used (for example brick) you cant just build a wall and expect it to stay up without proper support (same goes for floors etc).

 

The only way i could see working properly in-line with RL mechanics in terms of walls, is to somehow disable the fact that a block gets updated if supporting scafolding is removed. Allowing for the construction of cobble walls, the reason they fall is because it updates the block state when something is placed/removed next to it (it basicly checks on all sides if it has the required support to stay in place, from what i can tell without looking at the code). That being said the way minecraft works that is most likely not possible (and this would proll also wreck most of the gravity features in the mod), and in terms of gameplay makes brick block seems a bit wierd cause they dont fall down when placed as a wall. Witch is technically speaking already a bit odd when you think about it since brick are pure decoration in RL and the inner wall is what makes the strenght to a structure (bricks are actually supported with pins to the inner wall so they dont fall of the structure so to speak).

 

I could talk about this for hours on end, but i feel like its getting rather off-topic the further i venture down that road.

 

So ill conclude with this. i would much rather see proper wallpillar mechanics then a cobblestone that doesnt fall down when left unsupported. And with proper wall mechanics i mean the fact that walls can actually support floors without the need of aditional pillars/beams to keep the floor in place. Im willing to trow a few ideas out there on how to get this working in way that it doesnt brake the game, but this doesnt seem to be the place to do so.

 

I do like the idea of a more compact cobble stone stone, even if it was only for the sake of being able to store more by compressing 4 cobblestones into 1 new one that can also be uncrafted back into regular cobble.

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