TFC is missing a goal

[PaoloEmilio 53]

Please dont blame me, i just didnt read whole the topic, but i just like the goal idea and want to share my suggestions about this idea.

 

I was thinking about some "ancient structures" - it can be some kind of ancient ruins or labirinth or just tunnels made from hard destructable material, and contain lots of mobs and some relics. So player will need a good stuff(probably top armors and weapons, enough food and possible some keys to explore those structures to collect some relics which could be useless.

 

These structures would be VERY rare, and deep underground. Also, the relics would have an actual use. Some can be useless, but one can serve as opening for an alternate dimension. Because TFC is better than Vanilla why not have a cooler dimension?

[iPotato13 10]

Dimensions in Paleolithic times would defeat the purpose of TFC's "believabiliy". If anything, collecting all the relics/artifacts could be an achievement as it is. Maybe to create an endgame totem pole that acted as a Vanilla beacon?

[bilbobuddy 24]

Once you get pass the stage of "firsts", TFC is all grinding for the next progression. Once that happens, you have the tools to do as you please, yet nothing to build or accomplish.

Exactly.

[bilbobuddy 24]

First metal tools, forge, each level of anvil, bloomery, blast furnace, full height blast furnace, each level of metal, each tool, every piece of armour, animal husbandry, farm with all crops, every fruit tree, every berry, master level for each skill etc.

First metal tools: This is not a goal. You do this anyways if you get to very early game tfc. Not a good overall goal of tfc.

Forge: This is just a way you heat up stuff, as long as you have charcoal/coal/. Also, the way you get it is just grinding (a small amount, I'm not saying it's bad). Nice, but it is so small that building a forge is not really fun, and only really rewarding as a way to heat up stuff. Not a good ultimate goal of tfc.

Each level of anvil: Not a goal, you probably do most of them anyways if you get to blue/red steel. Say if you skip black and normal bronze and go from copper-bismuth bronze-iron, and never have black or normal bronze until you are using them as alloy ingredients, it would not be fun/rewarding to make anvils out of them. Especially if they can't handle the red/blue steel you'd be working with. Another thing is the balance/way to get all the anvils is just exploring/grinding, which tfc is already extremely heavy on. Assuming that at the point of were you run out of functional stuff to do and are doing the list you suggested you have a red/blue anvil, getting the lower tier ones would not be very fun or rewarding. If you mean in general, that a top tier anvil could the goal of tfc, then okay, its not too bad, but it is still only rewarding as a functional way to work high tier items, and I don't feel that it is the ultimate reward for tfc.

Bloomery: You do this anyways, this is a mid-late game way of getting tools... Fun and rewarding, but still not a good candidate to be the overall goal of tfc, especially as it is only mid-late game...

Blast furnace: This is a (early)late game method of getting tools. As there are more advanced tools than what can be produced with the blast furnace alone, this is not a good ultimate goal of tfc.

Full height Blast furnace: This is achieved by both grinding through forging the plates for the blast furnace, and grinding through finding/mining transporting the graphite/ kaolinite, and making firebricks, which is exploring, which tfc is already extremely heavy on. However, this would be a decent enough goal if it weren't for the fact that you don't need it to get the actual top tier stuff, red/blue steel.

Each level of metal: You do this anyways. It's like anvils, you do it anyways.

Each tool: Do you mean one hoe, one shovel, one pickaxe, one scythe, etc.? This would be kind of cool if there was a reason to do it... And if it was difficult...

Every piece of armor: I'm assuming you mean boots, leggings, chest plate, and helmet, and made of Blue/red steel. This would be a nice goal is there was something (much) bigger and badder than the wimpy mobs we have now. We would need something that would be a challenge to defeat in full endgame gear, something like the entity based goal someone was talking about earlier.

Animal husbandry: This can be one relatively easily with only copper tools. Sort of pointless as well.

Farm all crops: This can also be done with only copper tools. It is also sort of pointless. Achieved only by exploring.

Every fruit tree:This can also be done with only copper tools. It is also sort of pointless. Also achieved only by exploring.

Every berry: This can also be done with only copper tools. It is also sort of pointless. Also achieved only by exploring.

Master all skills: This would actually be kinda cool, but I'm fairly sure you only need iron tools max to complete all of the skills.

[Kittychanley 1,002]

The point of this thread was not to come up with an "overall goal" for TFC, but instead to help list all of the goals that already exist within TFC. It's not an end-game goal, but the majority of the things you just listed are indeed goals. The fact that you consider them pointless is moot, because there are plenty of players out there, myself included, who do see collection of every item in the game as a valid goal. You're missing the point that this is a mod for Minecraft, a game that at its essence, is a sandbox. Any and every single goal that is already in the game is essentially optional. There are restrictions to other gameplay if you don't complete those goals, but that's your decision to make.

 

Let's take vanilla for example. Many of the people in this thread consider the wither to be "an end-game goal", but is it an overall goal? No! For the majority of players, they don't stop playing after they defeat the wither, and the tasks that they do are not completely dependent on defeating the wither, it simply makes those tasks easier with the help of beacons. The same goes for the goals in TFC. They make life easier in complete tasks that can be done even without completing the goals. By teching up through the metals, you end up with armor that has better protection, weapons that do more damage, and tools that are more efficient with more durability so you do not having to keep making replacements.

 

I want you to stop for a second, and just think. Try to come up with an "overall goal" for TFC that is not some arbitrary boss that you defeat and then assume the game is over (because it isn't). Many of the goals that aren't forced on players do already exist, because players can come up with them themselves. It is a sandbox game, you are expect to have at least a tiny bit of creativity and come up with ideas on your own, instead of expecting the developers to spoon-feed them to you. For a vast majority of Minecraft players, the whole point of the game is building cool stuff. It really isn't a goal to aim towards unless there is some sort of reward, some sort of tangible thing that you can show to others and say "Look what I did/made!" Defeating some megaboss really isn't that awesome of a reward, especially when all it does is give you something that doesn't really change the game, or ends the game entirely.

[bilbobuddy 24]

Since I've been doing a lot of criticism lately (and I don't want to come off as angry), I was thinking I could give some ideas of what I think would be good PVE goals for tfc.

When fantasy mobs are moved underground, they could only be able to spawn in a few clusters of chunks, say a 2x2 square of chunks that would spawn very rarely, maybe once every 5000 meters (not unlike slimes).

The fantasy mobs would be much more powerful, and instead of there being a while bunch of mobs for the player to defeat, there would only be a few that the player would have to skillfully bring down, with each one being a large bosslike enemy, difficult to tackle in endgame gear. They would probably have to have more buffs besides better health/ damage.

They could drop powerful tools, or have their own drops, like perhaps the relics that were discussed earlier.

[Kittychanley 1,002]

They could drop powerful tools, or have their own drops, like perhaps the relics that were discussed earlier.

 

That doesn't solve the problem though. Instead of "I have red/blue steel tools and nothing to do with them" it becomes "I have this stuff that the mobs dropped and nothing to do with it"

 

It's a fundamental problem with looking at Minecraft like it isn't a sandbox game. Everything that is added simply pushes the problem that you see farther back, and nothing is ever going to "fix" it.

 

Edit: Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that the only goal that would actually be a valid "overall end-of the game goal" would be something that once you completed it, you could no longer play that save anymore, which destroys the whole sandbox basis of Minecraft.

[PaoloEmilio 53]

I want you to stop for a second, and just think. Try to come up with an "overall goal" for TFC that is not some arbitrary boss that you defeat and then assume the game is over (because it isn't). Many of the goals that aren't forced on players do already exist, because players can come up with them themselves. It is a sandbox game, you are expect to have at least a tiny bit of creativity and come up with ideas on your own, instead of expecting the developers to spoon-feed them to you. For a vast majority of Minecraft players, the whole point of the game is building cool stuff. It really isn't a goal to aim towards unless there is some sort of reward, some sort of tangible thing that you can show to others and say "Look what I did/made!" Defeating some megaboss really isn't that awesome of a reward, especially when all it does is give you something that doesn't really change the game, or ends the game entirely.

 

My goal is to make my town finished, and then go questing and travelling a lot. Expanding my Kingdom, never stopping. Now that I notice, I need no boss to keep me happy. It is enough with the fact that I must keep expanding my medieval city.

[bilbobuddy 24]

Btw posted my earlier comment before I realized Kitty had posted hers.

I never meant that these goals would facilitate the end of the game, that after these goals had been competed that the game is over.

The reason why almost all games, and why I think Minecraft, and tfc, should have a goal, is that the actual content that the devs can put in a game is limited.

Therefore the problem arises that the amount of fun you can have, the amount of stuff you can do before you run out of stuff to do is limited, and it is not terribly fun doing the same thing over and over again, this is called grinding.

The fact that Minecraft is a sandbox, and that the amount of stuff you can do is limited by the size of your imagination, (really, it is more what you can imagine that would be fun and worthwhile to do in tfc or Minecraft) greatly expands the amount of stuff you can do, which is awesome, but for many people, they can only come up with so much stuff. This is limited by a number of factors like how hard they try, how much they like the game, how skilled they are, what sort of things they like doing, how quickly they get bored of similar things, etc.

Goals also help fix this problem. They provide an incentive to work through things that the player would not normally do, they provide one way of quantifying enjoyment, they provide a rooted sense of accomplishment and help make some of the (somewhat) limited experience more fun than it would normally be. In no way do they signal the end of the game, they give the player one more large, rich, difficult, thing to do, that they might not come up with on their own, as well as one that has the added bonus of being fancy enough and well thought out enough to be added by people who actually know what they're doing. This also generally implies that the devs include purpose built content to help enrich this goal.

Another thing that I feel I should point out, is that tfc is more limited in the amount of stuff you can do because tfc plays by the rules of believability, something that minecart throws out the window. This means no nether, no end, very little Redstone, much less water/lava related stuff, fewer mobs, and importantly, no bosses/goals. These limit the amount of implemented stuff in tfc, as well as make it more difficult to come up with things to do.

It is easier to come up with stuff to do in vanilla Minecraft than in tfc.

Sorry if I came off as rude or angry, I didn't want do make anybody else upset.

[bilbobuddy 24]

My goal is to make my town finished, and then go questing and travelling a lot. Expanding my Kingdom, never stopping. Now that I notice, I need no boss to keep me happy. It is enough with the fact that I must keep expanding my medieval city.

Awesome. You have found a way to play tfc to it's fullest, by pushing your imagination to infinity. You basically beat Minecraft

[bilbobuddy 24]

That doesn't solve the problem though. Instead of "I have red/blue steel tools and nothing to do with them" it becomes "I have this stuff that the mobs dropped and nothing to do with it"It's a fundamental problem with looking at Minecraft like it isn't a sandbox game. Everything that is added simply pushes the problem that you see farther back, and nothing is ever going to "fix" it.Edit: Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that the only goal that would actually be a valid "overall end-of the game goal" would be something that once you completed it, you could no longer play that save anymore, which destroys the whole sandbox basis of Minecraft.

I think we are looking at the save problem but have different ideas on what a goal is. I interpret a goal to be the last Dev-implemented stuff in the game, so that it's possible to play just what the devs implemented and still feel satisfied. I don't mean that Dev-implemented stuff is the only thing you play, it is just part of it. The rest is stuff that you come up with, where your your imagination leads you.I think you interpret a goal to be the last thing that a player does, while also somehow not limiting the possibilities of what the player can do.

[bilbobuddy 24]

Hello all!I'm new to this mod, and I'm enjoying it very much. One thing really bothers me about it though, and it's the lack of a goal.Survival minecraft has the ender dragon as a goal for survival challenges.TFC has nothing like that.After building red & blue steel armor and tools, what is there left to do?What is there to aim for?And if my goal is to make red & blue steel armor and tools,what will I ever use a red steel bucket for (by the time I have it, I finished the challenge)?I'm not really good at the creative side of minecraft, I like survival with a goal at the end.And as a strictly survival mod, the lack of a goal seems really strange. Please no one take this the wrong way, I love the mod, and I'm trying to share my thoughts and (just maybe) improve it. Yours,Dark_Demon

Since "After building red & blue steel armor and tools, what is there left to do?What is there to aim for?" Is a key part of the original quote, I take this to mean end game goals, not every goal. If the point of the thread was to list all of tfc goals it would've gone something like this "let's list all the goals of tfc!" Not something like (paraphrased) after the endgame tools, where is the endgame challenge/what is there to do with these endgame tools

[Bunsan 323]

I will point out that it was you that listed the tool and armour progression in vanilla as goals. Not sure how that, but not TFC tools/armour are goals.

This whole arguement is why we now have Lego set that kids build to complete the image on the box, a creation of someone else, instead of taking a mess of random coloured blocks and building something. Hell you can't even buy just random block sets most places. Sandbox is just that. Bunch of raw materials and tools to do whatever you want. Build a castle or a mud pie.

[bilbobuddy 24]

Again, having an endgame challenge or goal does not stop anyone from keeping on playing. Having a fancy Lego set with a picture on the box should not stop you from buying a bunch of random bricks.

With a bunch of random bricks, however, could a kid build those freakishly awesome star destroyers? No.

[Kittychanley 1,002]

Again, having an endgame challenge or goal does not stop anyone from keeping on playing. Having a fancy Lego set with a picture on the box should not stop you from buying a bunch of random bricks.With a bunch of random bricks, however, could a kid build those freakishly awesome star destroyers? No.

 

Have you never seen the crazy awesome lego art that's like life size? Those artist sure as heck do not use pre-designed sets, they use the random bricks. Some people can indeed build stuff that is even more amazing than the kits using just the random blocks.

[bilbobuddy 24]

I will point out that it was you that listed the tool and armour progression in vanilla as goals. Not sure how that, but not TFC tools/armour are goals.

I'm confused. Can you rephrase that please?

[bilbobuddy 24]

Aarrrrrhhhggggg. Having a goal doesn't mean your creativity is dead, nor does it mean you have to stop playing.

They are not mutually exclusive, and they both have merits. Why not have both??

[Bunsan 323]

There are lots of in game goals in minecraft, such as getting to the nether, finding brewing materials, the wither, and the enderdragon, as well as the tool/armor/resource progression to conquer the aforementioned built in goals, such getting diamond tools, being strong enough to conquer fortresses, killing many wither skeletons/ having potions/enchantments, and killing many endermen/blazes + exploration.

This is where you say the armour/tool progression in vanilla is an in-game goal. Yet you responded to TFC armour/weapons, bloomery etc as not being goals. You want distinctive challenges for your TFC experience. That is fine, being sandbox you can want and do what you want. No goal or feature is really mutually exclusive, except at times when technically they can't mix. However the tone of this has been TFC is lacking an end goal. Which is not true. TFC is lacking the end goal you want. However what you desire is not what the devs envision for their mod. Which goes back to my one point. This is modded MC, so the tools exist for you to add in something using other mods and tools to provide you with the endgame goal you desire. Unlike what many think it really isn't difficult to do. You don't need any special skills or knowledge, just desire, time and patience. For example: MineTweaker3 is quite user friendly and powerful. Just read the guides. Make recipes that allow you to summon a wither or dragon. Use infernal mobs to give them buffs so you can't 2 hit them with TFC sword.

[bilbobuddy 24]

This is where you say the armour/tool progression in vanilla is an in-game goal. Yet you responded to TFC armour/weapons, bloomery etc as not being goals.

You want distinctive challenges for your TFC experience. That is fine, being sandbox you can want and do what you want. No goal or feature is really mutually exclusive, except at times when technically they can't mix. However the tone of this has been TFC is lacking an end goal. Which is not true. TFC is lacking the end goal you want. However what you desire is not what the devs envision for their mod.

Which goes back to my one point. This is modded MC, so the tools exist for you to add in something using other mods and tools to provide you with the endgame goal you desire. Unlike what many think it really isn't difficult to do. You don't need any special skills or knowledge, just desire, time and patience.

For example: MineTweaker3 is quite user friendly and powerful. Just read the guides. Make recipes that allow you to summon a wither or dragon. Use infernal mobs to give them buffs so you can't 2 hit them with TFC sword.

 

 

 

Cool. I meant that there are goals in minecraft, like getting to the nether, finding brewing materials (because they require "questing" via killing nether mobs) and the wither/enderdragon as being goals, and the tools in vanilla i.e. diamond tools, being strong enough to conquer fortresses, killing many wither skeletons/ having potions/enchantments, as being tools to accomplish the aforementioned goals. Tfc has tool progression to match goals, but has no goal for red/blue steel. There is nothing to do with the fancy tools you have. It is a dead end.

 

For your second part, are you saying that the best solution to a mod with no endgame goal, since it is a mod for minecraft (as if that matters), is to use 3rd party software to build your own goal?   

 

That is fine, being sandbox you can want and do what you want.: You use that word, but I dont think it means what you think it means...

 

No goal or feature is really mutually exclusive, except at times when technically they can't mix.: I don't think you understood what I said

 

However the tone of this has been TFC is lacking an end goal. Which is not true. 

 

Explain tfc's end goal. I don't mean a goal that I can set myself. Red steel/blue steel is just material progression, that you make to tackle goals.

 

TFC is lacking the end goal you want. However what you desire is not what the devs envision for their mod. 

 

Are you sure?

[Bunsan 323]

You interpret it as me saying it has a clear end goal. What I'm saying is it doesn't need one, hence it is not lacking. TFC is missing a lot of things, but not all of them are lacking.

As for 3rd party stuff. You could build your own mod or addon, but I was referring to already existing mods and tools. The desire for more is exactly the thinking that led to modded MC and then modpacks, as MC was certainly not built and has never officially supported mods. Notch even stated his dislike of mods.

You can't expect TFC as one mod to do everything. It is also not worthwhile when other mods already exist to do the desired feature. Kitty worked very hard to get TFC all Ore Dictionaried and Bioxx worked to increase compatibility so people could add in other forge mods. It is the desire for more that led to the TFC mod packs that extend progression with other tech mods.

[Bunsan 323]

I think the reason topics like this rustle my jimmies is that for years I've watched Mojang waste time on absurd time consuming features while ignoring buggy mechanics (boats) and not even adding obvious blocks that would not take much effort (stairs, slabs and walls for all building blocks). I greatly appreciate the approach of the TFC devs to invest time to make a playable immersive mod and build good base mechanics with interesting gameplay. They have made clear that they are designing and balancing for SMP. It is also a mod built for cooperation, which then leads to factions/clans. You can then find or setup a server that provides the kind of PVP/Raiding you would enjoy or completely avoid PVP/Raiding. This is why MC has been so popular for so long. It is a different game for every player and via personal rules, mods, plugins, servers, minigames, role play, etc. you can tweak it to your hearts content. And being the globalised digital world it is you can find people who share you interests.

I play SSP only because being home with two young kids makes SMP impossible as years can pass between play sessions. So for me anything above leather armour is superfluous, but I make them because I enjoy doing it. Black/Red/Blue steel is just to make building faster. But if I played on a server with PVP then every little improvement is critical.

I say this all out of experience. A friend and I staffed a good but poorly run modded server. So we put our money where our mouths were. We build a private pack, tweaked the hell out of it to make it bloody hard (our motto was Don't Cry). We then built and ran a damn good and stable server with RP and more. We built an amazing community. We only stopped because RL things made it impossible for my partner to continue. It was a great experience and I learn a ton of tech stuff. This is why MC is huge, not the wither or dragon.

Edit: Sorry if this is a bit rambling, I've been up since 3am with my toddler.