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Vampire737

COOKING RE-DO

37 posts in this topic

ok first i want to thank everybody for this amazing mod...

 

okay ...

also i like the whole "realistic" feel to the mod and how you have to do stuff like you do in real life...

but the cooking part feels like it's been lift out...

 

i want to separate my idea into 2 section:

first the basics : 

the idea of having the recipes seed related doesn't make any sense....

like i know that eggs and tomatoes and green pepper taste good in real life but then it tastes "terrible" with a 0.0 taste score !!!

that doesn't make any sense... 

so instead of blindly putting stuff together in hopes of getting a higher score, we should but ingredients together that make sense to us in real life

so you can implante a list of "recipes" with different scores....

and it does't have to be the bizarre recipes but just the basics like rice and tomatoes and potatoes for example !

this well not only make cooking a bit smarter but will also make a reason for traveling far and collecting different types of crops and fruits to make your favourite meal :P

 

and also i hate the fact that a meal is limited to 4 types of foods with fixed amounts....

why can't we put 6 types? .. why not 8?.. why not 16 ? and why can't we add a certain kind of vegetables into a 4oz slot and one in the 2oz slot ?

 

second... the advanced complexity:

this is most probably already suggested but for the sack of a full suggestions and to also get this idea out of my head...

we should be able to "cook" instead of making a salad.... we need heat , we need water, we need seasoning, salt.pepper

 

and lastly i would like to suggest a few extra things

adding cream for making dessert with berries and all.

being able to drink milk?!

butter... for making cookies

cake ! (it's a lie)

.... i'll add more when i remember more

 

so again thanks for this great mod and sorry for the loooong post and the bad english

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1. TFC is actually not trying to achieve realism. The goal is believability, while keeping in mind that not only is this a game, but also a mod for Minecraft.

2. Recipes based on world seed are so that you have a different experience with the food prep every single time you start a new world. If there was a way of importing the player's taste preferences into the game, there would be a lot of players who would simply start a world, find what crops are around then, and then import those crops as tasty, completely circumventing any trial and error in food preparation.

3. With the current meal system limitations, there are 685,795 possible combinations for meal recipes. We really don't need to make the system any more complicated than it already is. 

4. You are supposed to be able to drink milk directly from the bucket, but this is currently bugged in 78.17. It has been fixed for 79, and if 78.18 is ever released, it will be fixed for that too.

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to say the truth i don't mind working hard for something... but i hate frustration... 

putting different ingredients for hope of finding something is not a "new experience" is frustration

i made tons of meals of all food types and i couldn't get a taste score of or above 0.1  which was frustrating (also it's not that important it gives a sense of achievement)

what i love about minecraft is that if you have enough wits and knowledge you hardly need to look at a wiki... (you can guess that if you shape stones like that you will get a sword for example) so blindly putting different stuff together just doesn't have that magical touch....

and it also makes the different types of food just meaningless ... it doesn't really matter as long as it's a vegetable right ?

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The randomness based on world seed only determines if the taste score is not terrible. Once you find a not terrible combination, the tastiness of the meal is entirely up to the cooking skill level of the player.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean about making different types of food meaningless. In regards to nutrition, yes the only thing that matters is that it is in the category you want to fill, but in regards to meal making, and if the meal is going to taste terrible or not, a combination of Beef, Potato, Carrot, Rice is completely different than Chicken, Potato, Carrot, Rice.

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yeah as in names 

like for example a hickory wood is different than a kapok wood 

hickory burns better, it's "dark" colored...

kapok is pink ...

which makes a meaning to collecting different types of wood

but collecting different types of crops is practically meaningless

cause an orange isn't different than an apple it's just diversions and to add more combinations into meals  

i won't bother making meals if it frustrates me so having an apple or an orange doesn't really matter...

but if you say for example an orange gives a sour taste and an apple gives a sweat taste and that affects the meal then there would be a difference between them , there would be a point in looking for them in the wildness 

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to say the truth i don't mind working hard for something... but i hate frustration... 

putting different ingredients for hope of finding something is not a "new experience" is frustration

I'm inclined to agree here.

Don't get me wrong, I like that tastiness can't be looked up on a wiki and requires some experimentation. It would be nice, however, if there was some kind of logic or minigame involved with the process so that experienced players could hone in on tasty recipes faster than blind luck.

 

I'm envisioning some sort of system where every crop has 5 seed-randomized taste scores, such as Sweetness, Sourness, Bitterness, Saltiness, and Umami, or maybe just A, B, C, D, E. These individual scores are hidden from the player. When a meal is created, the contributions to each taste are summed up to determine the tastiness. Meals that have relatively equal scores of all tastes will say "Bland" on the tooltip and have zero satisfaction. Meals that score very high in one particular taste are "Too Sweet" or "Too Sour" and have poor satisfaction. The tastiest meals will have two or three very dominant tastes, which will be displayed on the tooltip like "Sweet and Sour".

 

With this system a beginner player will still add foods at random. As the player creates more meals they can do experimentation to deduce an approximate taste score for each of their crops, ex "With this seed, meals created with Potatoes tend to be sweet, so I suspect it has a high sweetness score". If a player is able to become familiar with a variety of ingredients, he/she will be able to create tasty recipes with much less guessing involved.

 

Edit: Some might say that the current system is already "complex", because it has so many combinations, so why should the developers add more complexity? One of the problems with the current mechanics is that you only need to find one good recipe and then you can stick to the same 4 ingredients the whole game. Both the above system and the current mechanics allow the player to get by on a small variety of crops once a tasty recipe is learned. The difference is that I think the above system would actually be fun, and provide incentive to continue experimenting even after the first tasty recipe. Some people, such as HonneyPlay, seem to spend a lot of time in TFC cooking. It would be nice to spice things up for them. Yes, pun intended. And speaking of spices... adding a pinch of salt or something to a created recipe would be a nice way to boost it's final tastiness

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but if you say for example an orange gives a sour taste and an apple gives a sweat taste and that affects the meal then there would be a difference between them , there would be a point in looking for them in the wildness 

I swear you hadn't posted this yet before I started my previous post

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I'd like a system where each player has different tastes' which are completely randomized per player, and each ingredient had 'flavors' that determine the meal taste.

And while the flavor of the ingredients decide the 'overall' taste of the meal, the player's 'tastes' decide how the player reacts to the meal.

 

Say if A B C D made a terrible meal. but the player likes flavor B, the player will like it more then a terrible meal that has A C D E

 

And if A B C D Makes a fine meal, but the player does not like flavor C, they will prefer the fine meal A B E D over fine meal A B C D

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Would just like to add a bit to this suggestion and concept.
 
I must echo sentiments of the posters, but elaborate a little on a good alternative.
 
Cooking should follow a loose fixed system; for example, IRL, there are 7 taste types which we can perceive:
sweet, sour, bitter, salty, umami (savory), pungent, and metallic.
 
If the game had these (or even just 3 or 4) the amount of each per raw ingredient could vary seed to seed. (This is just an example; not saying the game needs to mirror real life perfectly or necessarily at all)
 
For example, fruits would always have a 'sweet' aspect, but would each have pools of possible other tastes (possibly with weighted likelihood).
 
This is much like how ore probably spawns in several given rock types, but digging around in just one area doesn't guarantee results.
 
Then, by adding a 'taste food' operation somewhere, you could see what the ingredient is like. The accuracy could even be based on your cooking skill!
 
There could then be fixed targets for cooking with certain ratios much like metallurgy.
 
The quality and margin of error could improve with skill as well.
 
Without rhyme or reason, it is a game of slots now, and not even an interesting one any more. 
Before, there were all kinds of effects which rewarded you for playing the slot machine. Now you simply find something relatively common to what you have, and meets the food groups, and call it good.
 
I don't think anyone is asking for cooking to be the same every time, or for something overly complicated. Just for some kind of puzzle as opposed to 'combo 1, nope. combo 2, nope. combo 3, yep.'
 
What are thoughts on this direction?
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All of your suggestions sound good to me, AllenWL and dreadicon! Being able to 'taste' the food types is very intuitive (and thus its omission would be immersion breaking), but I'm worried that would take too much away from the value of experimentation. I'm not sure what a good compromise would be, but then again I'm not a game developer and the mechanics I've suggested were only half-baked. (Again with the puns!)

 

While I don't necessarily want TFC to turn into Cooking Simulator 2014, I think anything that adds more depth the the current mechanic is a step in the right direction. I'm curious to hear what Bioxx's or Dunk's thoughts on the subject are. 

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I think that while the current system can be frustrating, due to complete randomness and having to throw together food randomly without being able to use your food knowledge from real life, I actually think this mechanic is the better of the choices available.  I imagine the system as two things, one is that your character exists in a time where what we think of taste could be completely different, many plants and animals most likely tasted different, some things might even have a radically different taste from what we are used to.  For example, wines are flavored differently just over a mountain range, between france and spain for example, and when crops were being grown, the grower can over the course of years, breed out flavors they dont like, and even emphasize ones they do.  So when i load up a new map, for me it feels to me like perhaps im in a different area of the world or a different time period.  The second thing that the meal system brings to mind for me is that your character is just running across this new food that the character has not come across before, and when making meals, they are just blindly throwing things together, not understanding taste pairing yet.  If you dont think someone discovering a new food would more or less use trial and error to pair foods, think about children, they make weird food combinations all the time lol.Anywho, thats my 2 cents :)

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I also find the current system of food taste just fine. Things don't have to be made easier all the time like in original minecraft ^^

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The second thing that the meal system brings to mind for me is that your character is just running across this new food that the character has not come across before, and when making meals, they are just blindly throwing things together, not understanding taste pairing yet.  If you dont think someone discovering a new food would more or less use trial and error to pair foods, think about children, they make weird food combinations all the time lol. 

 well yeah but that doesn't quite fit... since you didn't just *try* to but sand and flux and water and you suddenly got mortar... and then you just magically knew that if you put it with bricks you get stonebricks ! 

yes it's how they did it in the old times but now you don't go and just try all the different combinations of all the different materials do you? no, you rely on your current knowledge, but the current meal system... you are enforced to not use your knowledge entirely but you rather flipping a coin with 685.795 faces... ! 

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ok after giving this some thoughts i'm gonna sum up some of the ideas that where suggested here with some of my own...

 

ok first:

5 types of taste scores : sweet, bitter, sour, salty, umami

each food type have a range of the five taste scores....

 

(for example an orange would have a range of 40%-70% sour and a range of 20%-60% sweet with the other tastes as 0%

so if a random orange is 70% sour and 20% sweet it is too sour and if it was 40% sour and 60% sweet it will be too sweet)

 

so when make a meal the sum of the different taste scores (multiplied be the different amounts of food) will be the final taste score of the meal

 

(for example a meal of 90%-100% sweet and 30%-50% for the result would be too sweet and unpleasant,

a meal of 70%-80% sour and sweet with the rest as 30%-50% it will result in a pleasant sour & sweet taste)

 

the taste score of the meal (pleasant or unpleasant) will affect the amount of how much it fills your hunger meter

 

the creation of  meal will reduce the amount of nutrients the food gives you

 

the higher you cooking skill is the lesser the amount of nutrients is reduced 

 

when you reach a high enough cooking skill you start getting more nutrients from a meal than of the food

 

second....

nutrients

 

instead of  the (protein, fruit, vegetable, grain, dairy)

it should be (Carbohydrates, Protein, Fat, Vitamins, Minerals)

 

each food type have a range of each of the five different nutrients 

 

the meal's nutrients is the sum of all the nutrients of the different food types minus the variable which is determined by your cooking skill

 

Carbohydrates would affect your Stamina (if you are planning to add it) the higher the carbohydrate the higher your stamina

 

Protein would affect your regeneration the higher the protein the better the regeneration

 

Fat would affect our stamina and our walking/sprinting speed the higher the fat the lower the stamina and the slower we are

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I definitely like the idea of finding a way to apply less randomness to preparing meals.

In my experience what tends to happen now, since there is so much randomness, is that once people find a combination that is not terrible, they pretty much stick with that from then on rather than experimenting further. In my opinion there are just TOO many random combinations that it just turns into an exercise in frustration rather than fun.

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In regards to Nutrition changes;
 
While less accurate, I am actually totally fine with the existing protein, fruit, vegetable, grain, dairy set-up. Generally, eating a good balance of 4-5 of said food groups will give you all the nutrients you need to stay healthy. 
 
Accuracy isn't really what TFC is about. I originally thought this, but honestly, too realistic of a game becomes "why not get up, go outside, and do it IRL?"  From what I have experienced firsthand of the mod and heard from devs, they make it realistic-like in most cases so that it's intuitive and fun, not just to be realistic for realism's sake.
 
For that reason, I think the 5 food groups are adequate, at least for now. I would much rather keep focused here on how to make food prep intuitive, dynamic and fun, as opposed to it's current state of slot-machine gambling. 
 
 
In regards to the original topic of food prep:
 
I think the best solution would be to use the 5 taste types, and make simple combos the easiest, but the most limited. for example, sweet + sweet = sweet. this is usually fine, and hard to go wrong with. salty + savory(umami) is also generally safe. But then you have Sweet & sour, Sweet & savory, sweet & salty, etc. These are more tricky and difficult, and where the idea of making your cooking skill provide margin of error. 
 
A detailed example:
 
Lets assume the following:
Plumbs & apples have a sweet range of 60-100%, 5-40% bitter/sour, 0-20% salty/savory.
Oranges are 40-70% sweet, 50-160% sour, 20-100% bitter, and 0-20% salty/savory.
Beef has a range of 60-120% savory, 0-60% salty, 0-20% sweet/bitter/sour.
Potatoes & squash have a range of 20-60% savory, 0-50% salty, 0-20% sweet/bitter/sour.
Milk has a range of 60-120% savory, 10-50% sweet, 0-30% bitter, 10-30% sour, and 0-20% salty 
Sugar Cane: 100-200% sweet, 10-30% bitter, 0-20% savory/sour/salty
 
Lets say in a particular world seed, the stats are as follows:
Plumbs: 90% Sweet, 20% bitter, 10% sour, 5% salty, 0% savory.
Apples: 60% sweet, 15% bitter, 15% sour, 10% savory, 0% salty.
Oranges: 50% sweet, 30% bitter, 120% sour, 20% savory, 10% salty.
Beef: 10% sweet, 15% bitter, 5% sour, 90% savory, 40% salty.
Potatoes: 5% sweet, 20% bitter, 0% sour, 30% savory, 40% salty.
Squash: 20% sweet, 0% bitter, 5% sour, 55% savory, 20% salty.
Milk: 30% sweet, 10% bitter, 15% sour, 80% savory, 10% salty.
Sugar: 170% sweet, 25% bitter, 0% sour, 20% savoury, 5% salty
 
Now, lets say we got all these in our minecraft world, and started experimenting! You aren't much of a cook, so when you taste them, you get this:
Plumbs: "these taste sweet"
Apples: "These taste sweet"
Oranges: "These taste sour"
Beef: "This tastes savory"
Potatoes: "This tastes bland"
Squash: "This tastes savory"
Milk: "This tastes savory"
Sugar: "This tastes sweet"
 
Like the prospector's pick, you can get somewhat inaccurate readings. But unlike the prospector's pick, you can't try again till you have more skill! To compensate, it's never completely wrong.
Moreover, 'salty' and 'savory' are often indistinguishable to those less perceptive. this could also apply to 'bitter' and 'sour' too. Thus they get lumped together at lower skill levels.
 
Now, given this information, you know that sweet things usually go well together, so you make a sugary fruit mix! 
(4x sugar + 2x apples + 2x oranges + 1x plumb = 1030% sweet, 210% bitter, 280% sour, 140% savory, 40% salty) And you taste the dish.....
"This is terrible! Too sweet!"
Because it had over 900% sugar (meaning more than 100% per ingredient average), it's become a sugary mess! You don't know the numbers, but you figure sugar is really strong usually, so you first try swapping that with something else.
 
You swap sugar and oranges, and try that:
(4x oranges + 2x apples + 2x sugar + 1x plumb = 650% sweet, 220% bitter, 520% sour, 140% savory, 65% salty) And you again taste the dish....
"This is bad. It's sweet & sour, but not quite right."
This time it was a poor dish because the sweet and sour tastes were high, but not perfectly balanced. It was too sour for a purely sweet dish, and too sweet for a sweet & sour dish. It's also slightly better than the last dish; the combo should work, and with enough skill this dish would be OK.
At lower levels of cooking, the margin of error is harsh for multi-taste foods, so you need +/-50%, and both need to be above 500%
The player doesn't know what level of taste his foods are at, so it's very hard to get it just right. But you weren't going for that anyway, so lets swap plumb and orange, cut down the sour. 
 
Lets try plumb, sugar, apple, orange, because we don't want it sour.
(4x plumb + 2x sugar + 2x apple +1x orange = 870% sweet, 190% bitter, 190% sour, 80% savory, 40% salty) And you taste the dish once more....
"This is ok, a nice sweet dish!" 
Success! you're still not a skilled chef, but some brains got you an edible dish, which is better than the sum of it's parts. 
This happens to be a really good combo, at just the right sweet level without going over.
 
That was but one example.
Why do I propose this? Because this is more or less how real cooking experimentation works. You can either randomly throw things together like a child, or you can combine, taste, adjust, taste, combine, etc.
Over time you will learn your ingredients, and just kindof 'know' what things will probably go together well.
Obviously there would need to be lots of numbers tweaking, ironing out details of what the good combos are, balancing the randomized values to make it so no seed is too hard, etc. But I think this would be exceptionally fun!
 
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The randomness based on world seed only determines if the taste score is not terrible. Once you find a not terrible combination, the tastiness of the meal is entirely up to the cooking skill level of the player.

AHA! This is very useful to know. A "terrible" combination will remain "terrible" regardless of my skill, but a "poor" recipie is a keeper, because it will improve with my skilk level.Figuring out the whole meal-prep thing feels less impissible now :)
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Things suggested here are very good.

I think the only way I realistically might expand on the concept is different player tastes (again with the seed, just hash the player name and add it to the seed, voila), so things that are perfect for one player, are good, but not nesseccarily great for another.

This, of cource, was mentioned before in here, but it's still might be good to bring this part up separately.

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The sheer number of numbers that I'd have to come up with for this to work is crazy o.O, but that said, I'm not entirely opposed to this as it retains the exploration factor.

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The sheer number of numbers that I'd have to come up with for this to work is crazy o.O, but that said, I'm not entirely opposed to this as it retains the exploration factor.

Why not just pluck some from the cloud and tweak as is required?

 

I do realize some reasons why, but they are supposed to be randomized to an extent anyway, so just rough estimates are enough.

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Hey Bioxx! Glad to hear your feedback on this! Yeah, it would be a LOT of numbers & playtesting. If the numbers could be altered in a config file (at least for development purposes), volunteers could work to find and balance numbers, I think. I certainly would be willing to put in a good amount of research and testing. 

 

As to the individual tastes, those could, in theory, set the target numbers. The problem you face then is that you are trying to hit a moving target with changing darts. Generally, I have noticed individual taste tends to be a preference more than a major thing, especially when a skilled cook is making the meal. It also would make it harder for a community to have dedicated cooks, as it's very likely that an excellent meal to one player could be a terrible meal to another.

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I find the taste mix idea simply brilliant!

 

Nice job!

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 well yeah but that doesn't quite fit... since you didn't just *try* to but sand and flux and water and you suddenly got mortar... and then you just magically knew that if you put it with bricks you get stonebricks ! 

yes it's how they did it in the old times but now you don't go and just try all the different combinations of all the different materials do you? no, you rely on your current knowledge, but the current meal system... you are enforced to not use your knowledge entirely but you rather flipping a coin with 685.795 faces... ! 

Yes but the key here is that taste is subjective... mortar is not  :)  Taste varies from person to person because it is a personal experience.  while you could say we could randomize mortar to be wool sugar and a healthy dose of red mushroom, it wouldnt make sense, noone would believe it.  But if I told you that somewhere out there someone likes the taste of bread bananas and fish, while it might be far fetched, you could never rule it out entirely.  I guarantee you there are a few people who would like it :D  and i can also guarantee you that combining wool, sugar, and red mushrooms will never make a sufficient mortar.

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Hey Bioxx! Glad to hear your feedback on this! Yeah, it would be a LOT of numbers & playtesting. If the numbers could be altered in a config file (at least for development purposes), volunteers could work to find and balance numbers, I think. I certainly would be willing to put in a good amount of research and testing. 

 

As to the individual tastes, those could, in theory, set the target numbers. The problem you face then is that you are trying to hit a moving target with changing darts. Generally, I have noticed individual taste tends to be a preference more than a major thing, especially when a skilled cook is making the meal. It also would make it harder for a community to have dedicated cooks, as it's very likely that an excellent meal to one player could be a terrible meal to another.

 

I don't think individual tastes should be as extreme as you describing. The margin for it should not go as far as 'perfect of one is no less than fine (or good) for another', I believe, meaning one could actually eat other player's perfect food and still get enjoyment out of it, but it is more or less impossible to make food that would be perfect for everyone.

If intention is to allow dedicated cooks to making big batches for everyone, making a meal perfect for everyone then would be extremely hard, and I don't think there's nesseccarily something wrong with this. It is very hard for actual cooks to please literally everyone if all they doing is making apple pie - there's at least one who might like pear pie instead.

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I looked through the thing, and I'll try to make a post that coverts all things said, plus my own ideas.

 

The combination that makes terrible/fine/good/great/not bad/etc recipes should take experimentation, but not be 100% random.

I think it will be good if we have 'ingredient compatibility'. for example, steak has compatibility with potatoes, but not with bananas.

The compatibility rate should be randomized, so while steak and potatoes might make a great meal in seed 1, it might just make a ok meal in seed 2.

Your cooking skill should increase the compatibility of the ingredients you are using as well.

 

So while making a non-terrible meal is just a matter of finding compatible foods that do not change, finding a great meal will need some experimentation, or you might just end up with ok foods.

The compatibility will be up to the player to find out of course, and nothing other then the resulting meal will

 

The player should also have favorite foods of each type(0~2 meat,  0~4 fruit, 0~3 berries, 1 grain, 0~5 vegetable[numbers are based on the number of foods per type]), and foods they dislike of each type (0~2 meat, 0~4 fruit, 0~3 berries, 1 grain, 0~5 vegetables) which will be randomized per seed, and will hold no grantee of being compatible(or not), so even a meal made only of your character's favorite foods can be a terrible meal, and even a meal made out of foods your character dislikes can be a great meal(although, your character will probably interpret both as somewhere near ok foods)

 

Favorites should improve or degrade your meals  quality depending on how much favorite or disliked foods are in the meal.

 

Meals will not show quality when made, but it will tell you the quality when you eat it(it tasted terrible, it tasted ok, it tasted bad, it tasted great, it tasted fine, it tasted horrible, etc, etc)

 

I think that would cover the main point, meals not being random while still needing experimentation, and player 'tastes' changing meal outcome.

After some though, I deiced that flavors aren't really that needed, and just end up making things needlessly complicated.

 

However, we could give foods slightly flavors, and have flavors have slightly randomized compatibility.(I say slightly because a full randomization takes us back to 'meal making is a toss of a 686-ish faced dice')

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