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Yolyla

Question about salt

28 posts in this topic

Hi, I have a question (didn't know where to post it). Using NEI I found there's a salt bucket. You can use it to get 2 salt. But, how I get that bucket with salt????  I tryed warming a salt water bucket up in the campfire, also place the salt water bucket in the forge while it is burning. But, the bucket keep the same way, nothing changes. Is it a bug?

Best regards, and thanks.

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Pretty sure that isn't implemented yet. You can see lots of things that aren't actually implemented in the creative inventory, such as pipes, more ceramics, leaf items for all the bushes, etc. For now, you just gotta find rock salt.

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Dunk actually added that item in without Bioxx's permission, when Bioxx explicitly stated that boiling salt water to get salt will not be added to the game. I guess when Dunk was told to disable it, he didn't remove it entirely.

 

Edit: There is absolutely no way to get the item without cheating it in.

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I don't know about anyone else but... I think they should keep the salt buckets and salt from salt water. Cause it's just logical.

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The massive amount of salt water that you would have to boil/evaporate to be equivalent to a single powder that you get from grinding rocks is why it won't be implemented.

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why doing an image then...

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Lets see, a bucket holds a singe cubic meter of saltwater, or 1,000 liters of water. that is roughly 34,000 grams of salt, or 34 kilograms of salt

And how much salt do we get from rock salt?

 

I think we can do it

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Except that this is Minecraft, and none of those real life calculations and volumetrics are accurate and can't be used as a valid argument.

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Lets see, a bucket holds a singe cubic meter of saltwater, or 1,000 liters of water. that is roughly 34,000 grams of salt, or 34 kilograms of salt

And how much salt do we get from rock salt?

 

I think we can do it

Wait, you're claiming that (IRL) the average cubic meter of sea-water has 34 kilograms of salt? Citation please -- because that seems like a lot to me.

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Allen, Kitty is kidding you. there's already a salt bucket in the creative menu.  ;)

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Sea water is usually around 1% sodium chloride, by mass. It's more saline than that, but due to many other salts that exist in it. Total salinity (assuming we're extracting sea salt) is between 3-4%, by mass.

 

Surface sea water density is around 1020kg/m^3, giving us a rough average of 35kg of sea salt per m^3 of sea water, which if someone cared, could be further refined to around 11kg of sodium chloride.

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It should also be noted that the 35 grams you'd get out of even a single liter is nowhere near insignificant for culinary purposes,

and the salt yielded by a 1 m^3 chunk of halite (2100kg) is probably more than you'll need for ohhhhh, I'd say about forever.

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It should also be noted that the 35 grams you'd get out of even a single liter is nowhere near insignificant for culinary purposes

On large scale? Probably. A few pinches for a single average-sized meal? It is significant enough to make a difference.I would also say that it's rather easy to get salt from salt water and agree it is a viable alternative - it doesn't have to be massive amount. Some areas in the world are salty enough that just wadding through with some pants and then letting them dry is enough for amount of salt big enough to salt a meal to accumulate. Bucket, which presumably holds about 2 - 5 litres should provide enough of it for a dinner for one person.Rock salt may be providing more, granted, but just because said alternative provides less shouldn't be a reason for cutting it out. By that logic we should completely and permanently disable sluicing (arguably since gains from it were decreased even further some time ago, the impact of that wouldn't be overly big, but it still would be a loss of decent feature).Now, sure, realistic estimates may be of less importance in TFC, but the game still struggles, officially, for believability and achieves that through semi-realism. I am very much suspicious of arguing for some features on the grounds of realism and then disregarding others because it's a game in a situation when both suggestions have similar impact on the gameplay and would improve the experience quite much. Even more weird in this situation as if I recall correctly the suggestion was argued against earlier from the standpoint of realism.
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Except that this is Minecraft, and none of those real life calculations and volumetrics are accurate and can't be used as a valid argument.

However, you also said:

 

The massive amount of salt water that you would have to boil/evaporate to be equivalent to a single powder that you get from grinding rocks is why it won't be implemented.

which is a real-life calculation. just like you said, this is minecraft(Or more accurately, TFC)

Where is the grantee that salt water in TFC, salt water does not hold more salt than in real life? what can we use to conclude that the amount of salt gotten from a piece of rock salt is more  that the amount of salt gotten from saltwater?

 

And in the gameplay and balance perspective, will the ability to get salt from saltwater really have that big of an impact in gameplay?

 

 

Allen, Kitty is kidding you. there's already a salt bucket in the creative menu.  ;)

 

I assume not because of this I

                                                         V

Dunk actually added that item in without Bioxx's permission, when Bioxx explicitly stated that boiling salt water to get salt will not be added to the game. I guess when Dunk was told to disable it, he didn't remove it entirely.

 

Edit: There is absolutely no way to get the item without cheating it in.

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There is no way of knowing the salt content of TFC oceans until TFC implements a hydrometer.

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As repeatedly stated elsewhere, TFC aims for believability rather than pure realism. Salt can be quite valuable so for the sake of game balance acquiring it should be non-trivial - regardless of realism. I imagine Bioxx thinks that boiling saltwater would be too easy and therefore less fun. I'm inclined to disagree.

 

As it stands, salt is a very all-or-nothing mechanic. Sometimes it takes hours upon hours to find a saltrock layer, but once found it it's absurdly abundant. One piece of saltrock can preserve 640oz of meat! That could feed a player for a long time. From a single rock! In list form, we have:1) obtain a metal pick2) make a quern3) search for salt rock and pick up a few pieces. Players can carry a huge amount of rocks at a time, so only one trip is ever needed. A single stack of saltrock cobblestone can preserve 81920 oz of meat.

4) grind rocks in quern

5) practically infinite salt.

 

Compare that to a system where each bucket of saltwater yields a single piece of salt.1) obtain a metal saw2) chop tree and make buckets and barrels

3) find coastline (easier than finding salt, but not completely trivial)

4) fill up barrels. Each barrel holds 8 buckets.5) obtain a crucible (or metal cauldron or something) since a wooden bucket would simply burn6) harvest fuel for the forge/firepit or whatever

7) spend fuel and time to boil water (the cauldron only holds a couple buckets at a time) to obtain salt residue

8) grind salt residue in quern to get one or two pieces of salt

9) not-infinite salt... actually 64 times less salt per inventory slot (32 cobble versus 1 barrel).

I imagine most players live by freshwater, not coastline, so this could encourage periodic travel.

 

Even if boiling water never makes it into the game, at the very least I hope the salt mechanics are changed so that each piece of salt can only preserve a limited amount of meat. Or make saltrock a mineral deposit rather than a rock layer.

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As repeatedly stated elsewhere, TFC aims for believability rather than pure realism. Salt can be quite valuable so for the sake of game balance acquiring it should be non-trivial - regardless of realism. I imagine Bioxx thinks that boiling saltwater would be too easy and therefore less fun. I'm inclined to disagree.

 

Heh, while I agree with the rest of the entirety of your post, you emphasize an emphasis on believability without pointing out that not being able to boil away a bucket of water with enough salinity to be called salt water and produce halcite is... well, completely unbelievable.

 

Ultimately, I think they need to revise the goal from believability to "gameplay mechanics direction"

 

This can be filed under the same section as "sure it's not believable that steve can't sleep on raw hide, but it's the direction I want gameplay to go."

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Believable does not mean that everything has to be accurate. The idea behind believable is that it gives us much leeway to change facts as we see fit to provide a desired gameplay outcome. A great many things are possible in the real world, but that does not mean that all of those things are beneficial to providing a progression based gameplay experience. In the case of salt, sure I could easily add boiling salt water to attain salt. But what would be the purpose besides just giving the player something else to waste time on when it would be that easy?

 

Attaining the salt would be trivial at best and would cause two problems with the flow of the game with regards to how I want things to go.

 

First of all, another aspect of real life is that salt is and always has been an incredibly important and valuable commodity to humans. Of course on earth you may need to travel hundreds or thousands of kilometers to reach ocean where salt is more abundant so naturally this creates areas that are more and less abundant in salt. In mc however it's rare to travel more than 1 or 2km before reaching ocean which causes the intrinsic value of salt to be extremely low. By only allowing salt mines and not seawater evaporation to provide salt, we are able to keep salt as an extremely valuable and sought after resource. 

 

Secondly, easy salt makes the food grind even more of a grind. It's no longer a welcome reward but is instead just another part of each players daily grind of trimming decay etc. Scarcity gives value. This is a core part of TFC.

 

Now after having said all of that, The primary reason why no-one shuts up about wanting easy salt is because other preservation methods are not yet in. Obviously I'm aware of this. You guys should know after two years of this that I often implement stuff that needs other stuff later to make total sense. I promise that after 79, you're not going to care so much about sea water salt.

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Believable does not mean that everything has to be accurate.

 

The main point of video games is to simulate believability without being *realistic*

 

Who would want to play a game where you have to walk out of your IRL house, and search for metals in nearby rocks? Not me. However, when you can instead use a mouse to have a fictional character do that work for you, it adds an interesting concept that can let you be super hard working while being incredibly lazy. 

 

I doubt anyone here would like to live in a TFC world ( the real world, but without people and our industry ) and have to do all the stuff in real life. However, the *simulation* of doing that gives a sense of enjoyment and achievement, as well as teaching you new ideas ( Look at the chats, people researched about the salinity of average sea water just to talk about the game )

 

TL;DR, I agree with bioxx's decision, and agree with his use of gameplay mechanics ( and you probably do too, for the most part, as you play TFC )

 

TY Bioxx for the response clarifying your point, not many game makers ( Inventors? designers? whatever ) take the time to talk with their community about anything, let alone their reasoning behind their game mechanics.

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Now after having said all of that, The primary reason why no-one shuts up about wanting easy salt is because other preservation methods are not yet in. Obviously I'm aware of this. You guys should know after two years of this that I often implement stuff that needs other stuff later to make total sense. I promise that after 79, you're not going to care so much about sea water salt.

does that mean I can start lobbying for less salt from salt rocks?

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I just wonder. If supposedly the primary reason for more methods of obtaining salts is lack of alternative methods of food preservation and those are to be in, supposedly making salt less important - why not to add things like boiling water to make people happy and have alternative, enjoyable, believable way of acquiring salt. It being more common shouldn't be an issue if it's rarity is mostly because of it's importance in preservation - a thing that's about to change.

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does that mean I can start lobbying for less salt from salt rocks?

I'm going to take a look at making salting meats make a bit more sense with requirements. With 78 we had been so lazy that for so long that we just wanted to get a release out. So I released things in a workable state, tho not really their final state.

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So if we're going into how important salt is, can we have salted meat remember if it was salted while cooked? I'd like it if adding salted meat to a meal increases the chance of a meal tasting better. Despite what personal preference people have the human tongue by nature likes salt (within reason obviously).

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