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Xervir

Melt alloy into alloy mixture

25 posts in this topic

To my dismay adding bronze to my mixture off:

 

BRONZE

10%       tin

90%       copper

 

Resulted in:

 

UNKNOWN

9.5%      tin

85.5%    copper

5%         bronze

 

This resulted in the wasting of 1050 units of bronze.  It would make sense for if the alloy added to the crucible is the alloy in the crucible already for either the amount added to be ignore, not calculated, or treated as if it were a mixture of ores that falls within the acceptable range, this way you could remelt your alloys into the crucible without having to empty out the crucible into ingots and melt all of your ingots over again.

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So let's say I'm making some black bronze, but I'm really low on silver so I make it using the minimum amount of silver I can (10%). After I get a couple ingots worth, I extract an mold's worth of black bronze (theoretically removing 10 units of silver from the mix).

 

Now I add that mold of black bronze immediately back into the crucible. As far as the crucible can tell, this is just an ingot of black bronze and has no idea what its original composition was.

 

How would it know how much silver to add back? If it used the 'average' composition of black bronze, it would be adding 17.5 units of silver back, and I could exploit that difference to make more black bronze than I should be able to.

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First, what kaldskryke said.

Second, this has been discussed few version back and devs agreed this is not doable. Also, there is note on Wiki : http://wiki.terrafirmacraft.com/Crucible

 

 

Note: Only the component ingredients can be mixed to create the valid alloy. Adding a completed alloy to a mixture of the alloy, such as adding Unshaped Bronze to a correct mixture of Tin and Copper, will result in Unknown Metal.
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Unfortunate, but understandable.  I will attempt to find the aforementioned discussion, thank you.

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One might suggest having each alloy ingot remember the % of the metals it was made with but that would pose problems with crafting and stacking of all the different alloy ingots. A workaround for this would be a pain to code, best thing to do is just be careful and work with small amounts until you know what you're doing.

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Well since the % of each metal does NOT effect the quality of the ingot, as that would impose the same problems as stated above, so having a bronze ingot melt into a preset % of metals wouldn't affect anything apart from appearing odd when you melt them again but really, who keeps tabs on what you made your ingots of?

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Well since the % of each metal does NOT effect the quality of the ingot, as that would impose the same problems as stated above, so having a bronze ingot melt into a preset % of metals wouldn't affect anything apart from appearing odd when you melt them again but really, who keeps tabs on what you made your ingots of?

 

Having all alloys melt to a preset % makes it very easy to exploit the system. For example:

 

The minimum amount of tin required to make bronze is 8%. So the player makes a bronze ingot using 8 units of tin and 92 units of copper. They pull this ingot out of the crucible, then put it back in. The crucible now reads 10% Tin, 90% Copper using the preset composition as suggested, which transfers to 10 units of tin, and 90 units of copper. The player then adds an additional 25 units of copper to the mixture. They now have 125 units of bronze at 8% Tin, 92% Copper.

 

This metal is pulled out of the crucible and put back in, once again resetting to 10% Tin and 90% Copper, or 12.5 units of Tin and 112.5 units of Copper. The player can now add 31.25 units of copper to the mixture for a total of 156.25 units of bronze at 8% Tin, 92% Copper.

 

This metal is pulled out of the crucible and put back in, once again resetting to 10% Tin and 90% Copper, or 15.625 units of Tin and 140.625 units of Copper. The player can now add 39.0625 units of copper to the mixture for a total of 195.3125 units of bronze at 8% Tin, 92% Copper.

 

In just three passes, the player has now turned their single Bronze ingot into almost two bronze ingots, by only ever adding copper to the mixture.

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Okay, it took me long enough but I found the previous thread.

 

Sorry to waste your time.  If I want it that badly, I'll wait for the full version and figure out a way to do it myself (this is probably a pipe dream, but my Skyrim mods have received nothing but good reviews, so wish me luck as I teach myself java).

 

</pointless_thread>

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Um, what if you made it so there was no '+-' to the amount of metals needed to make a alloy?.

Instead of 8~12 tin and 92~88 copper making bronze, make only 10 tin and 90 copper make bronze.

 

Then, re-adding alloys would work because all alloys have the same metal content.

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The ranges are there to make it easier to make batches when using different qualities of ores. If Bronze could only be made with 10% Tin and 90% Copper, and if you only had poor tin ore (15 units), you would have to make multiples of 1.5 ingots every time, and would always have to find a combination of ore pieces that adds up to 135 units for copper (a combination that cannot be made without different qualities).

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True... that would make it a pain to work with alloys.

I but you can use clay vessels and poring from mold to mold to get the ratio that way, and you won't have to do overly complicated math.

(say, if I have 1 rich tin ore, 3 poor copper ore, and 5 copper nuggets[that's 35 tin and 95 copper] I can melt both of them separately in a clay vessel, getting me two vessels, one with 35 tin and 95 copper. Then, I pour 10 tin into one mold, 90 tin into another mod and mix them in the crucible. The leftover metal I can store until I get some more ore, then alloy them as well.),

 

That would make alloy-making very much a pain until you get a crucible, but I can live with that, and I don't think it'll upset the gameplay that much.

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I just made the same mistake and ruined a crucible of weak steel, but I think there's a way it could be made to work (adding an alloy back into a mixture of the same alloy), without requiring alloy ingots to keep track of their composition, and without allowing exploits:
 
To determine whether it has a valid mixture, the crucible would first check the mixture of all constituents as it does now. If that isn't a valid alloy, it would then iterate over each constituent that is an alloy - let's call each of these X - and try temporarily removing it from the mixture. If the remaining ingredients form a valid alloy, and if that alloy is the same as X, then the crucible should consider its contents in its entirety to be a valid mixture of X alloy.
 
For example, if you have a mixture that's 45% copper, 5% tin, and 50% bronze, all of those together are not a valid alloy. However, if X = bronze and it is temporarily removed, then the remainder is a valid mixture of bronze. Since that's the same alloy as X, the crucible can consider itself to contain a valid mixture of bronze overall.
 
This makes the exploit described by Kittychanley impossible because pulling bronze out and putting it back in can never change the relative percentages of the remaining copper and tin; in effect, the crucible keeps track of "things that make up bronze" and "actual bronze" separately, but it still recognizes everything put together to be bronze.
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Shit, it's good that we have mods here 'case i totally missed that point, of course you shouldn't be able to make a "pure" copper bronze ingot! my mistake!

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I just made the same mistake and ruined a crucible of weak steel, but I think there's a way it could be made to work (adding an alloy back into a mixture of the same alloy), without requiring alloy ingots to keep track of their composition, and without allowing exploits:
 
To determine whether it has a valid mixture, the crucible would first check the mixture of all constituents as it does now. If that isn't a valid alloy, it would then iterate over each constituent that is an alloy - let's call each of these X - and try temporarily removing it from the mixture. If the remaining ingredients form a valid alloy, and if that alloy is the same as X, then the crucible should consider its contents in its entirety to be a valid mixture of X alloy.
 
For example, if you have a mixture that's 45% copper, 5% tin, and 50% bronze, all of those together are not a valid alloy. However, if X = bronze and it is temporarily removed, then the remainder is a valid mixture of bronze. Since that's the same alloy as X, the crucible can consider itself to contain a valid mixture of bronze overall.
 
This makes the exploit described by Kittychanley impossible because pulling bronze out and putting it back in can never change the relative percentages of the remaining copper and tin; in effect, the crucible keeps track of "things that make up bronze" and "actual bronze" separately, but it still recognizes everything put together to be bronze.

 

 

 

Kitty makes a good point, but Iprefermuffins'

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Kitty makes a good point, but Iprefermuffins'

I see what you did there...
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Well, I don't.

 

But it seems like a good idea to me

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Well, I don't.But it seems like a good idea to me

It's a play on the English language. He was saying that he agrees with Kitty, but he agrees with the user "iprefermuffins" idea MORE. By clever apostrophe usage, he also said that he agrees with Kitty, but prefers muffins (a delicious food).It was pretty clever,
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.... eight years probably isn't enough to understand stuff like that.

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I ran into this problem to, but hâve à diffrent solution.

Instead of making bronze into tin and copper percentages(whitch is stupads) why not change the display?

Example:

Bronze:

Unknown

Bronze:

Copper X%

Tin X%

This prevents any exploitation and saves you maybe some time, whithout needing to extract finished alloys to use them in other alloy recepies witch makes it more fun AND realistic (win win!) But what happens in this case?

Bronze:

Copper X%

Tin X%

Brass:

Copper X%

Zinc X%

And you add copper? Simple! Just divide both equally. This seems the most realistic and best way to implement the feature.

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Um..... I don't get how this works.

Care for a explanation?

 

Or.... are you suggesting that when we have a alloy in the crucible, and we add a metal that makes a different alloy, it doesn't mix with the alloy already in the crucible?

(say, add zinc to copper and tin and end up with two mixtures of brass and copper?)

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Yes and no(kinda)

I mean they do mix but they appear seperated in the gui. This means if you add bronze to a bronze alloy that is being created, both will combine into bronze once poured:

Bronze:

Unknown

Bronze:

Copper X%

Zinc X%

Alloy: Bronze

The usefullnes of this idea is that to make alloys that require alloys you now dont need to pour it out evry time and to prevent the addition error

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So basically, the Tinker's Construct smelting system then... meh, I don't feel like that suits the style of TFC

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No, tinker construct has all of the métal seperated in the furnace, what im saying is that the crusible will read a mixture of metals as an alloy so that when you add said alloy it mixes.

On another note i think the very best mechanic would be Procedural Alloys, or basically, if x alloy is created it will have x traits in x amounts depending on x parents. This also means randomised anvilling(maybe this one is a less good idea) but would profit flexibility and creativity for players, as making custom metals for eatch tools for diffrent purposes, like a durable but not sharp metal, or à bendable weak metal(copper) in diffrent amounts to create the perfect alloy.

This might be hard to code however but this kind of liberty and realisticness is what i think tfc is going for

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1. TFC isn't going for realism, read the signature under my post.

2. Dynamic alloy systems have been suggested before, and shot down for a plethora of reasons. You can use the search function on this forum to find the discussions for it.

3. Tinker's construct only has the metals separated in the furnace if it is not a valid alloy mixture. As soon as you add copper to a furnace full of tin, it turns as much of the copper and tin into bronze as possible, and leaves the excess of one metal behind.

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