Content: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Background: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Pattern: Blank Waves Notes Sharp Wood Rockface Leather Honey Vertical Triangles
Welcome to TerraFirmaCraft Forums

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

  • Announcements

    • Dries007

      ATTENTION Forum Database Breach   03/04/2019

      There has been a breach of our database. Please make sure you change your password (use a password manager, like Lastpass).
      If you used this password anywhere else, change that too! The passwords themselves are stored hashed, but may old accounts still had old, insecure (by today's standards) hashes from back when they where created. This means they can be "cracked" more easily. Other leaked information includes: email, IP, account name.
      I'm trying my best to find out more and keep everyone up to date. Discord (http://invite.gg/TerraFirmaCraft) is the best option for up to date news and questions. I'm sorry for this, but the damage has been done. All I can do is try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
    • Claycorp

      This forum is now READ ONLY!   01/20/2020

      As of this post and forever into the future this forum has been put into READ ONLY MODE. There will be no new posts! A replacement is coming SoonTM . If you wish to stay up-to-date on whats going on or post your content. Please use the Discord or Sub-Reddit until the new forums are running.

      Any questions or comments can be directed to Claycorp on either platform.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Soulrakyn

Skill mechanic suggestion

15 posts in this topic

Hi everyone, :D

 

I apologize in advance for any errors, misspellings and wrong expressions that this post might have, since English is not my main language. :unsure:

 

I saw some images of the development of build 79 and the one Bioxx had, regarding skills gave me an idea. I used to play a game that some of the old school players might still remember called Ultima Online (UO).

 

That game had, in my opinion, the best skill layout ever made(!!!!) since you were not stuck to be a type of class. You raised the skills you wanted and the percentage you thought useful… Sometimes 100% was not the goal.

 

For instance, for each 10% of magery skill you had, you unlocked a circle of magic (there was a total of 9 I think but the more % you had, the less the chance it had to fail the spell when cast). My swordsman had 50% of magery, not to be a battle mage but the buffs I wanted to cast on him before battle were all circle I, II, III, IV and V. The other circles, although they had some nice spells they were not very interesting for that character... So 100% Magery was not my goal, the same would apply to player playing in groups like one person is the cook, the other is a miner, the other a lumberjack, and so forth...

 

Ultima Online was based on percentages, the titles were also percentage based and you could only make some items when you reached a certain percentage of a skill, which I think makes sense. But in Terrafirmacraft (TFC) that would have to be adapted, I think…

 

The titles were given taking into account the % of the skills you had, as said earlier and they were something like this:

 

Grandmaster

100%

Master

90%

Adept

80%

Expert

70%

Journeyman

60%

Apprentice

50%

Novice

40%

Neophyte

30%

No Title

29% or below

 

 

The skills raised 0.1% at a time and the higher your skill was, the more difficult it was to gain. For instance, to reach 30% of mining it would take like 1 day of mining in a cave, to reach 40% another day, to reach 50% a week, 60% a month and so forth (note that these time values are not true they are used as an example to illustrate the difficulty of skill gaining). So, as you can see the Grandmasters of a craft were hard to find and very valuable to have on a guild…

 

The next table has the skills I think that could be used in TFC, UO had more but I don´t think that they can be useful at the moment. Some of these skill might be grouped as one, since it makes sense, for instance, Animal Lore, Animal Taming and Veterinary or Archery, Bowcraft/Fletching and Lumberjacking to be all grouped but I left that for the developers to decide, in case they see some interesting ideas here.

 

 

Alchemy

Alchemist

 

Inscription

Scribe

Anatomy

Biologist

 

Lumberjacking

Lumberjack

Animal Lore

Naturalist

 

Mace Fighting

Armsman

Animal Taming

Tamer

 

Mining

Miner

Archery

Archer

 

Parrying

Duelist

Arms Lore

Weapons Master

 

Poisoning

Assassin

Blacksmith

Smith

 

Remove Trap

Trap Specialist

Bowcraft/Fletching

Bowyer

 

Swordsmanship

Swordsman

Carpentry

Carpenter

 

Tactics

Tactician

Cooking

Chef

 

Tailoring

Tailor

Fencing

Fencer

 

Throwing

Bladeweaver

Fishing

Fisherman

 

Tinkering

Tinker

Healing

Healer

 

Wrestling

Wrestler

Herding

Shepherd

 

Tracking

Ranger

Hiding*

Shade

 

Veterinary

Veterinarian

 

Regarding the bonuses… I will give the example of Lumberjacking. Imagine you have 15% of lumberjaking, when you chopped a tree down, the percentage would determine the amount of logs you would get. It would be something like applying those 15% to the quantity of logs that tree would give you +1 (cause when you chop down a tree you receive at least 1 log)

 

If the tree was 5 wood blocks high, the quantity of logs you would get would be something like, [(15%*5logs)+1]

 

Some of these skills gave me some interesting ideas, like all the animals ran from the player when he was some blocks in their line of sight, which would make traps for hunting a good idea, as well as tracking would have to be used to know if there were some nearby wildlife. Also some poison making to put on arrow heads and javelin heads to paralyze, slow or even kill them by applying a damage over time on the animal…

 

This is just my idea for the skills, but I would like your opinion too, any changes, the things you think could be applied or not. I thank you all in advance for any feedback you might have.

 

Cheers ;)

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TFC's skill system is still in its infancy, and I suspect the number of skills will increase with time. As far as skill "ranks" are concerned, it looks like they might be implemented in build 79. Right now on github, they look  similar to the ranks in Elder Scrolls (Novice <  Adept < Expert < Master) but of course this could change before b79 is released.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dwarf Fortress had a good(IMO) skill system. You can get a legendary skill at everything you can spare time with, but only until that life. Skills get rusty if not used and will degrade when not used for a long time(like a couple of years). Fifteen skill levels from Dabbling to Legendary. Items produced with a masterwork quality will have better durability and damage factor(oh i wish bioxx implement df combat system). Soldiers with legendary skills in combat hits harder and smarter, dealing more damage or even simply giving a death sentence in one blow. Legendary farmers plants the seeds more efficiently, giving more crops at harvest. I could go on and on, but I think you got the ideas.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...(oh i wish bioxx implement df combat system)...

 

Having never played dwarf fortress I took a look at this wiki page. that's amazeballs! I might have to give it a try. Unfortunately I don't think Minecraft's combat mechanics (or lack there-of) could be well adapted to anything quite so detailed. I'd like to see more persistent wounds etc but that discussion is better kept on a separate thread.

 

Back on topic... Smithing skills already improve durability, though it would be nice to see increased damage on weapons. Combat skills would be nice, but so long as monsters can be "farmed", combat could be "farmed" too. I'm not fond of permanent skill degredation. In TFC, it's not unreasonable for a single set of armor to last for years (in-game) and I don't want to waste metal on superfluous armor sets just to keep my armorsmithing skill up. It sounds tedious. If people really want this kind of mechanic, I'd prefer a temporary "rusty" debuff that goes away quickly rather than permanent loss.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I... don't think spawners exist in TFC. But you could technically call for zombies by letting yourself get hit by the zombies.

 

So, no better damage factor. Just damage. A grand master swordman with a iron sword is always better than a peasant with adamantine sword. Scientifically tested in DF!

 

Skills could produce valuable assets on a big server. A legendary armorsmith will produce masterwork armor and sell it to newcomers at a higher price. Newcomers should do some labor job and give them to producers as a payment(unless the server agreed to use gems). 

 

You should try DF! It is very complicated, but once you grasp the ropes you'll be satisfied with your measly fort.

 

A combat report showing how awesome DF is in combat. Human 1 is the grand master.

Human 5 strikes at Human 1 but the shot is parried!

Human 1 counterstrikes!
Human 1 stabs Human 5 in the upper body with his iron two-handed sword, tearing the muscle, shattering the left true ribs and tearing apart the left lung!
A tendon in the left true ribs has been torn!
Human 5 is having trouble breathing!
Human 1 stabs Human 5 in the upper body with his iron two-handed sword, tearing the muscle, shattering the left true ribs and tearing apart the left lung!
A tendon in the left true ribs has been torn!
Human 5 is having trouble breathing!
The iron two-handed sword has lodged firmly in the wound!
Human 1 twists the embedded iron two-handed sword around in Human 5's upper body!
Human 5 attacks Human 1 but He jumps away!
Human 1 charges at Human 5 from the side!
Human 1 slashes Human 5 in the upper body from the side with his iron two-handed sword, tearing apart the muscle and tearing apart the left lung!
Human 5 is having trouble breathing!
The iron two-handed sword has lodged firmly in the wound!
Human 1 collides with Human 5!
They tangle together and fall over!
The Human 5 gives in to pain.
Human 1 slashes Human 5 in the head with his iron two-handed sword, tearing apart the muscle, shattering the skull and tearing apart the brain!
An artery has been opened by the attack!
A tendon in the skull has been torn! (skull have tendons?!?)
The iron two-handed sword has lodged firmly in the wound!
Human 5 has been struck down.
 
Four strikes to kill. Anything to the head is too dangerous to live.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why the heck does the guy keep going for the lung?

In the matter of fact, can you even survive from getting your lung ripped apart 3 times in a row? I think you'd pass out from the pain or something.

 

That aside, I think to have a skill system like this, we need to flesh out the tech-tree much more.

I mean, as of now, farming, cooking and wood-cutting is somewhat rudimentary, Brewing is pretty much non-exsistant, and so on.

To have a particular skill for one thing, we need it to exist in the first place, you know?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dwarf Fortress' combat is so good and detailed because the game doesn't need to show anything aside from some messages. Minecraft has:

1. More detailed graphics, meaning there's a need to show at least something of what heppened - wounds, bruises, crushed skulls. Otherwise, for all we know, zombies might actually take damage to their exact vital organs or whatever, even in vanilla.

 

2. Far less detailed damage taking system. Health is represented by an integer value, it's a humongous work to rewrite even a slight part of that.

 

Also, if one is to emulate basic DF combat in MC, we will come to the point when "you took damage to your left eyeball, so you won't see half of your screen from now on".

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Newest Edit: This turned into some essay, so to those who'd rather not bite too hard into it, tl;dr version - I doubt that proposed change would benefit the game, for several reasons.

Longer version:

The titles for skills are in and that idea I like them - so I am glad that's in the works. However I am not fond of any player ones. I may be, say, a blacksmith because that's my main occupation I devote myself to. I may also be good at making really nice dishes, but I am still blacksmith by trade, not a cook - and if I am blacksmith I want it to be recognised the way it'd happen IRL - because those who know me are aware of my trade. Floating titles, some special info about the player and other such things I dislike quite much. It may have been good in many MMORPGs when people sought crafters to make them some decent stuff (although even in UO, on modified, more survivalistic and realism-oriented shards [servers] stuff like visible names you didn't assign to folks yourself were taken out) or needed to assemble a team of characters with diverse skills but TFC isn't really a place for the same, in my opinion.

I am a DF player but I wouldn't want it's type of system here as well, mainly that 'getting rusty' thing. I understand it's to mitigate making it too easy for jacks-of-all-trades who should earn their broad range of proficiencies, a sentiment I may agree with but I also think that losing what you've earned with your hard work just because you take a break and devote to something else is unpleasant, if not unfair. TFC is of different pacing, about people carving their place in the world. I'd rather have skills have very small impact on effects - even in case of rather high values of them - and to be raised with lot of work, so skills will be just additional bonus stemming from what person does, not a goal of grinding. Then, also forgetting the skill won't be necessary.

Regarding gains from skill.

Let me stress it, though it's not the first time I've shared this sentiment. It will also be somewhat longer thing, even a bit of a social commentary. I apologize to those whose time I'll take and who will find it wasted.

Dumbing down skills to make them simply provide more, faster and easily is bad design decision not beffiting really ambitious projects which claim to value survival abilities and believability, if not realism. It can be balanced somewhat (vide acquisition of seeds at the time of harvesting plant rather than processing it - a step back from what we had in my opinion, but at least not a complete disaster) but it still makes the whole feature a simple grind.

I want skill to depend in big part on actual proficiencies and wits of the player. For example, a different suggestion involving mining skill that advocates said skill increasing how reliable prospecting is (prospecting is kind of different field than mining, I am aware, still, the idea's good) - where said prospecting still requires some thinking rather than just running around and tapping rocks.

I don't think every occupation needs a skill actually. Nor I don't think every aspect of those who may benefit from one has to be affected by a skill. I don't want someone to get double of worth of wood simply because he cut lot of it in the past. I don't want veins to suddenly get more rich because the one mining them mined through many before. Sword swings of experiences warrior can be more finesse, accurate and harder to parry but they don't get extra strength, the sword isn't getting magically sharp, more durable or lighter only because experienced warrior is using it. Regular, strong peasant lacks technique, doesn't recognize certain movements and doesn't know how to respond to certain actions and that's why he will most likely lose. But he still may be stronger and his woodsman axe guided by his strong arm may brutally outpower rapier of a fencer.

Addition of skills opened quite a few possibilities but I am starting to worry people got overhyped and now go a bit too far. 'Every action now has to have a skill and increase boons with time' - an implied reasoning which I cannot agree with. Yes, such thing provides satisfaction and measurable effects of progression but also leads to typical MMO overabundance of certain resources or heroic fantasy super masters of all kinds of random crap who in reality, sitting in front of the computers, devoted little of any thought to their trade, just mindlessly grinded stats.

Yes, I am aware that that often what games are - a fun thing available for all kinds of people, allowing also those with certain.. deficiencies to also feel accomplished and enjoy themselves. That is a good thing. But if we go too far in our attempts at making them have exactly the same go at everything as anyone, we lower the bar and make those with talents and abilities simply unable to use them. I suspect that's one of the reasons for raise and popularity of games like Dark Souls, modern first person-perspective shooters including brutal, open-world ones like DayZ or indie games like Dwarf Fortress - challenging gameplay where people use and hone their skills, not just skills of their characters.

But I digress. We don't talk about games in general but TFC, aren't we.

I'd like to remind both posters and the devteam of importance of certain detachment and careful consideration, here. Yes, there is potential in skills but there's also risk that by trying to fulfill this potential too eagerly without proper deliberation will ruin big part of the game. Let the TFC be about survival, rewarding proper use of resources and the ability to acquire them - rewarding ingenuity and work of a player. Not a game of random folks grinding themselves to prosperity, surely and easily - as it's just a matter of time.

To digress for the last time, though it's in connection to where OP comes from.

Ultima Online - or at least some of the shards of it I played - was (and still is, even if not officially supported anymore) a good game. Lots of mechanics included in it - diverse, balanced wearables, skills and stats development stemming naturally from what player does, serving enriching the experience rather than just empowering the character or items of realistic limitations and use rather than 'you are level 5 warrior, so here's the armor for you, with differently skinned/enchanted version of it available through crafting or loot - no alternatives to what you'll wear beside our vanity armor reskins' went way ahead of games of it's time and is still better than many current, horribly simplified and plain stupid MMOs (really, that armor and class example just now, that's a standard mechanics not only in heroic fantasy, adventure games - where such simplification can be understandable, even good - but also in those which supposedly aspire to create immersive, living virtual worlds - and with such mechanics fail).

However (pardon the rant), it's not an ultimate solution. I don't think that the same mechanics will work in just any all kinds of games. TFC included.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why the heck does the guy keep going for the lung?

In the matter of fact, can you even survive from getting your lung ripped apart 3 times in a row? I think you'd pass out from the pain or something.

 
He stabs twice and slashes once, all to the upper body. #5 is still a bit lucky though, that stab doesn't hit his heart. He did pass out after they collided.
 

That aside, I think to have a skill system like this, we need to flesh out the tech-tree much more.

I mean, as of now, farming, cooking and wood-cutting is somewhat rudimentary, Brewing is pretty much non-exsistant, and so on.

To have a particular skill for one thing, we need it to exist in the first place, you know?

 

You could brew alcohol in barrels... but it's useless now, so, yah.

Dwarf Fortress' combat is so good and detailed because the game doesn't need to show anything aside from some messages. Minecraft has:

1. More detailed graphics, meaning there's a need to show at least something of what heppened - wounds, bruises, crushed skulls. Otherwise, for all we know, zombies might actually take damage to their exact vital organs or whatever, even in vanilla.

 

2. Far less detailed damage taking system. Health is represented by an integer value, it's a humongous work to rewrite even a slight part of that.

 

Also, if one is to emulate basic DF combat in MC, we will come to the point when "you took damage to your left eyeball, so you won't see half of your screen from now on".

 

I think blocking needs an improvement. It needs to play a big role on PvP so skills are also based on the player, not that number.

 

I had a dream where the game's(a mix of GTAV, Dead Island, Left 4 Dead 2, DayZ, and Prototype) protagonist is a superhuman with a special blood that gathers nutrient, extracts oxygen from air, and brings protein and carbos to break it down and create stem cells and enhance their growth in case the protagonist is wounded. The game's health system is showed in 3 bars: Body Integration, Pain, and Consciousness. Body is the whole condition of the body. It shows the how much of your body is usable. This goes zero, you're dead. Pain is, well, pain. This goes full and you give in to pain a.k.a. incapacitated. Consciousness is the state of your mind. Its color shows your control of your body while the length of the bar shows your detection of impulses. This goes zero, you black out. This goes white, you drop down, writhing in pain. There may be a fourth bar which shows how much nutrients and building blocks of the body are stored inside your body. This bar is filled by absorbing things, getting some medkit/bacta, or by eating.

 

I'd be very happy if others ask about this daydream I had. It's a wonderful experience to simulate a game within your mind :D

 

-snip-

However (pardon the rant), it's not an ultimate solution. I don't think that the same mechanics will work in just any all kinds of games. TFC included.

That's why we're here in the first place, to discuss the possibility and balance of the idea. The devs could make an implementation and then we will provide feedback, whether it is a rant, a suggestion, or a praise. That's up to us as the player base.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I don't like having skills in-game.

I'd much rather have the mechanic be hard to master so it takes actual skill to do it, kinda like the pro pick.

 

One of the reasons I don't like skills in-game, is other then it pretty much ending up as grinding sooner or later unless you ignore it, every time I start a new world or go to a new server, I have to get my skill up again every time. Other things like having to 'learn' how to do something I already know how to do because my character 'doesn't know' it gets old really fast

 

The meal-making system is a good example.

The first time you cook a couple hundred to make a great meal is bearable.

 

But having to do that every time you start a new world is annoying and tedious.

 

For example, rather than having animals and mobs not notice you depend on how high of a skill you have,

I'd rather it have mechanics to master, such as sneaking, avoiding 'noisy' things like leaves, having mobs not notice anything behind them, and making them give subtle hints before turning around so the experienced player can see those signes and sneak up to a mob by staying out of it's field of vision and avoiding things that can alert the mob to their presence.

 

Instead of the potency of poisons that you make depend on your alchemy skill or whatever, make the making of those potions take skill.

For example, to make a paralyzing poison, you need to boil a red mushroom until soft*, then dry it and grind it to soft paste, then add 10oz of red mushroom past to 12oz of rotten flesh dust, made by drying rotten flesh and grinding it, and cook that until hot**, then add that to a bottle of water and brew it for the needed time.

And while there is a margin of error, the closer you get to 'perfect', the higher the potency, so it's not a matter of spamming brews until you have skill X, it's a matter of practice, and knowing how long to wait at what temperature and so on

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with having systems which take real skill, or which utilize complex repeatable patterns is that people will find ways to copy those patterns without any skill involved.  Also, we are not our characters.  Ideally it should be a bit of both, so that having real life skill makes it easier to increase in-game skills.  Otherwise, the fourth wall is broken, and you're no longer playing a character in TFC.  When your skills develop to their maximum, your character can no longer increase.  By having a hybrid system, the in-game skill system rewards the player for developing real life skill, such that, when you start a new world, you'll be back at square one, but it will take you less time to get as good as before.  Of course, TFC already has this to a large degree.  In my first world, my skill at figuring out a successful first-night shelter was sufficiently poor that I went to peaceful rather than get murdered.  It wasn't until my 4th world or so that I perfected for myself a shelter design that was the right balance of resources for me such that I was able to focus on other first-night goals.

 

I think in-game skills would have to be subtle, providing only a bit of additional padding to the success of one's actions in the game.  Things like getting back a few more seeds with agriculture (while absurd) are functional examples.  As far as I know, the skill never starts giving back dozens of seeds per plant.  The benefits of getting the skill up are subtle enough that most sane people wouldn't consider grinding at farming just for a few extra seeds.  Meanwhile, knowing which plants need which nutrients, and being aware of the weather and such, are still much more important for making agriculture efficient.  

 

So, for instance, with a paralysis poison, the skill wouldn't determine whether you successfully make it, but rather, a high skill would add a certain amount of duration to the effect.  

 

Combat skills could lower the enemies armor by a bit, for instance, to reflect skill at seeing openings and making finesse attacks.  The player, however, would still have to have the skill to hit the other player for that bonus to matter.  So, in-game skills that give effects only after the application of real world skills.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not worried about 'fourth wall' - while players can identify themselves with the characters and no matter whether it's good or bad (sometimes even, it depends on the game), I am yet to find situation where it'd be lack of methods of overpowering characters that'd cause breaking such. In the case of what I believe in it's not a matter of identifying oneself with the character for better or worse, but the simple fact that no matter the progression, characters being better should stem naturally from the players and their experience.Like in the example I've mentioned - I don't mind idea of skill in general, but I strongly believe that making them simply 'get more, stronger and better' is simply unambitious, dull and simply - a waste of the idea. Now, if there would be certain benefits that don't directly translate to power, but additional options for the players or better 'secondary' abilities, that's worth consideration. Increased chance or effect of more complex actions that aren't primarily used to show certain superirioty in player-to-player interactions. Like easier time figuring proper sequence of actions when smithing something for maximum results or more accurate prospecting results. That I can get behind.Other than that, I think we let this discussion spill a bit to a different thread, didn't we.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we see things primarily the same way.  I think player skill is paramount, and that the amount of dedication the character (not the player) has put into a task should ideally have some effect.  Part of what I like about this idea is that is mirrors real life.  In real life, even if you completely lack the characteristics to be really successful at something, having practiced it you will have more capability than someone who lacks the characteristics and the practice.  So, the poison maker, even if he is not particularly innately skillful (the player's skill), will have some tricks that come from repetition and focus.  What I like about this model is that it encourages specialization for servers, and, I think, will help build more cohesive communities which mirror real communities.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So even if you suck at something, lots of practice can let you still be good at it.

Hm.... not really a bad idea if you consider it, and would prevent cases of players not really being able to do anything because they simply don't have the skills for something.

 

So, have it depend on the player's skill for the making/utilizing process, but let the character's skills add a bonus/buff to the finished product, and add a skill decay rate to encourage people to stick with one skill.

 

Seems like a good mechanic

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...Otherwise, the fourth wall is broken, and you're no longer playing a character in TFC...

 

That's... actually the exact thing that Dunk has repeatedly said that this mod is going for. See my post in the 'moods and cleanliness' thread.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0