Content: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Background: Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Pattern: Blank Waves Notes Sharp Wood Rockface Leather Honey Vertical Triangles
Welcome to TerraFirmaCraft Forums

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

  • Announcements

    • Dries007

      ATTENTION Forum Database Breach   03/04/2019

      There has been a breach of our database. Please make sure you change your password (use a password manager, like Lastpass).
      If you used this password anywhere else, change that too! The passwords themselves are stored hashed, but may old accounts still had old, insecure (by today's standards) hashes from back when they where created. This means they can be "cracked" more easily. Other leaked information includes: email, IP, account name.
      I'm trying my best to find out more and keep everyone up to date. Discord (http://invite.gg/TerraFirmaCraft) is the best option for up to date news and questions. I'm sorry for this, but the damage has been done. All I can do is try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
    • Claycorp

      This forum is now READ ONLY!   01/20/2020

      As of this post and forever into the future this forum has been put into READ ONLY MODE. There will be no new posts! A replacement is coming SoonTM . If you wish to stay up-to-date on whats going on or post your content. Please use the Discord or Sub-Reddit until the new forums are running.

      Any questions or comments can be directed to Claycorp on either platform.
Dark_Demon

Cheese OP?

36 posts in this topic

Hey guys,

 

Yesterday I started a new world, and spawned near some sugar cane.

On the second day I went exploring and found cows.

On the third day I created a copper saw and started the cheese making.

From that point on (using only 2 female cows) I created 80 oz. of cheese EACH DAY.

 

This just seems absurd.

In a very short time an enormous amount of food can be created, and it can be created practically on demand. 

It works in every season (unlike crops), and takes only 12 in game hours (unlike crops & animal reproduction)!

This is the most OP and unfair source of food to date.

 

Opinions?

 

Yours,

Dark_Demon

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/faen/dairy%20facts.html

http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/246-FAQ-Cheesemaking-for-Beginners.html

 

Typical amount of milk produced by 1 cow: ~6.5 gallons/day

You can make ~1-2 lbs of cheese/gallon of milk

 

Therefore two cows would allow you to make 13-26 lbs of cheese per day

 

If the TFC production rate is unrealistic, its because you don't produce enough cheese/cow

 

Of course the real thing is living off cheese would not be realistic. That is a nutrition thing.

 

Joke: Coming next to TFC, if you eat too much cheese, you become lactose intolerant

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want to deal with 1/5th of a health bar then by all means go ahead. What balances it is that you are making it very hard on yourself to survive by only consuming cheese. Also not to mention that you only happened to get cows and sugar cane. Seeing that the average spawn is more northern than toward the equator it's not a guarantee you get some sugar cane.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Note that the dairy food group doesn't actually contribute to your base health. Only the other four do. The dairy level acts as an additional multiplier on the base health determined by the other four food groups. Source: http://wiki.terrafirmacraft.com/Food

 

Which means that dairy is worth far less than other food groups. If you ate fruit and dairy at game start,  you would have at most a maximum health of 25% * 1.25 = 31.25% if both bars are full. However, if you ate fruit and vegetables instead, your max health would be at 50%, which is much higher. If you eat only dairy and all four of your other food groups decline, you will die because you run out of HP even if the dairy bar is full.

 

Dairy is not OP - you cannot even use it to stay alive :P

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Note that the dairy food group doesn't actually contribute to your base health. Only the other four do. The dairy level acts as an additional multiplier on the base health determined by the other four food groups. Source: http://wiki.terrafirmacraft.com/Food

 

Which means that dairy is worth far less than other food groups. If you ate fruit and dairy at game start,  you would have at most a maximum health of 25% * 1.25 = 31.25% if both bars are full. However, if you ate fruit and vegetables instead, your max health would be at 50%, which is much higher. If you eat only dairy and all four of your other food groups decline, you will die because you run out of HP even if the dairy bar is full.

 

Dairy is not OP - you cannot even use it to stay alive :P

 

Actually, that page is just worded that way because people were complaining about Dairy being a health requirement.

 

So, instead of wording it as "The basic player has a max health of 1,000HP, with each group accounting for 20 % (200HP)" we changed it to "The basic player has a max health of 800 HP, with the first 4 groups accounting for 25% (200 HP) and dairy adding an additional 25% boost (+200HP)"

 

It's just two ways to look at the exact same calculation, with only one of them making it seem like dairy is "required" in order to be in perfect health.

 

Edit: So technically speaking, you can still live off of that 25% boost because it isn't (Veggie + Fruit + Grain + Protein) * 1.25(Dairy) = Health , it's (Veggie + Fruit + Grain + Protein) + Dairy = Health.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/faen/dairy%20facts.html

http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/246-FAQ-Cheesemaking-for-Beginners.html

 

Typical amount of milk produced by 1 cow: ~6.5 gallons/day

You can make ~1-2 lbs of cheese/gallon of milk

 

Therefore two cows would allow you to make 13-26 lbs of cheese per day

 

If the TFC production rate is unrealistic, its because you don't produce enough cheese/cow

 

Of course the real thing is living off cheese would not be realistic. That is a nutrition thing.

 

Joke: Coming next to TFC, if you eat too much cheese, you become lactose intolerant

 

You're a little off there. You can't use figures based on america. The holsteins in America are so over-bred and full of hormones that the amount of milk they produce is absolutely unrealistic.

The milking machines encourage them to produce a surplus of milk.

 

In reality you can only milk a cow while it just had a child who is still in weaning, not to mention that a wild cow only produces enough milk to feed it's calf.

 

But that's not the real problem, because even then 80oz of cheese is still quite little. The true matter at hand here is that we can milk cows in TFC whenever we want, it really should only be possible after a cow had a child.

I think it would add a nice extra layer of complexity.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not a cow expert, but if cow lactation works like human lactation all that really matters is that the mother gave birth and breasts were frequently milked.

 

Otherwise women would not be able to breast feed a only child for almost 2 decades (these cases tend to end when the child wants to stop breastfeeding rather than milk production limitations)

 

Of course cow lactation may be different than human lactation

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure that as long as you milk the cow regularly, it will keep on giving milk.

 

But I really don't think forcing a player to make a cow give birth, then making him/her keep on milking the cow to have milk is absurd, and really just makes the game annoying.

Maybe if cows can only be milked once every (in-game) week or something would be better then 'hey, want milk? breed cows!'

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, that page is just worded that way because people were complaining about Dairy being a health requirement.

It makes me wonder about a thing. Doesn't that simply mean then that the issue many people complain about in regards to dairy is still present? The entry is more of a trick then, pulling wool over eyes etc while the results, as you've pointed out, are the same and dairy is still basically a health requirement.Otherwise you can simply say that only one group of food is necessary to fill your max HP but all the others provide bonus to it. Matter of perception doesn't change a thing in mechanics. If sizeable number of players complain about it, I'd say that said mechanics require change.Going back to the question of OP, though - dairy isn't overpowered in comparison with anything else. Even if we'd assume it offers certain benefits that living on anything else doesn't, it's still not enough to maintain a healthy, strong character on it's own.
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cows generally lactate for 9 nine months and then are given a rest period so their udders can heal. We can get milk the whole year through because we either import it from the other hemisphere or we have some cows who gave birth 2-3 months after all the other to supply a constant change.

 

In reply to allenWL; In dunks words, he won't implement any half assed features, if it's to be included it should be done right.

Just like how jute doesn't make good rope on its own, and how iron ores require a bloomery, cows should require breeding when being milked.

 

As far as I see it, TFC is game from which all of us can learn something about ancient times. If there's one thing that city slickers need desperately it's to learn that animals don't exist to spew out food for us all day.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do those cows only lactate for 9 months because you chose to let the udders heal, or could you continue to milk them if you wanted

 

There is a huge difference

 

Your humane (a world which in itself is specieist, but thats not the point) worldview is not the only way to look at the world

 

Of course exploiting animals could always be implemented as being detrimental to thier health

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could continue, but they would eventually die of mastitis as the udder would become inflamed.

Regardless of this, you can't just walk up to a cow and start milking it randomly.

 

My "humane worldview" is not one at all, it's a basic fact that a natural ecosystem will fall apart if it is over exploited. Evolutionary wise no animal exists purely to aid another species, and utilizing an animals (or plants) produce requires care and patience. Especially considering that TFC is set in a world without specially bred animals and crops.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

This just seems absurd.

In a very short time an enormous amount of food can be created, and it can be created practically on demand. 

 

Furthermore, cheese has a fantastic decay rate, which doesn't even begin until you remove it from the barrel. And because the most efficient way to produce milk is one-bucket-per-barrel, it's very convenient to leave finished cheese in the barrel until it's needed.20 - 40 oz of cheese per cow is a lot of food for a single player to consume. But then again all food in TFC is plentiful, except maybe berries and calamari. Food simply is not a challenge in TFC beyond the first day or so in SMP. In single player it's pretty laughably easy unless you're a new player. If someone wants a survival challenge in Minecraft, I'd recommend checking out the Blood n Bones modpack. It's not nearly as realistic/believable as TFC, but it's very difficult :D

 

Actually, that page is just worded that way because people were complaining about Dairy being a health requirement.

 

Ugh... Sorry, Kitty, but that seems pretty deceptive :(. At best, you've created needless confusion about how the mechanics work, and at worst you've offended some of your players by implying we can't see through it. Rather than trying to masquerade a nerf as a bonus, why not be clear? Nutrition mechanics are a nerf compared to pre-78 TFC, but it's for the sake of fun and believability. Nerfs can be good. Players will accept that if you're upfront about why. If there are still complaints, I suspect they would be of the form of "Dairy is too rare / more rare than other nutrients" or "800 HP is not enough".

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kitty had to be deceptive. Bioxx is in charge of designing and controlling the nutrition system (he can get quite touchy about anyone messing with it) and he has  remained reserved in expressing his opinions on whether dairy should be changed into a supplementary nutrient instead of a major one. Until he makes a decision, it won't change.

 

We can't do anything about it and the problem is still there, so sometimes it's just best to sweep it under the rug until it can be dealt with.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried using cheese in meals but i noticed that those meals will not keep my dairy levels up. So cheese is an extra, a snack if you like. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cows are needed, barrels are needed, quite a lot waiting effort to grind true the process.

 

Id say its slighly less OP compared to a fruit tree that regrows fruit, i had apples, lemons and peaches for days this year. While getting a cow for me would have been a lot more effort i doubt making cheese would have came close to the little amount of effort id had to go true to get my trees that where within viewing range of my spawn point.

 

Long story short, it seems anything can be considerd "OP" in terms of food gathering in regards of SSP worlds.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried using cheese in meals but i noticed that those meals will not keep my dairy levels up. So cheese is an extra, a snack if you like. 

I always use cheese in my meals, and it always keeps up the Dairy nutrition level the same as any other food group.  If you only put a certain food group in the 2 oz slot, it might not be enough to keep the correspoinding nutrition bar full.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cows generally lactate for 9 nine months and then are given a rest period so their udders can heal. We can get milk the whole year through because we either import it from the other hemisphere or we have some cows who gave birth 2-3 months after all the other to supply a constant change.

 

 

In Canada, importing milk is not a valid option. The farmers have quota that they must respect, they are penalized if they over or under produce. When my dad had a farm, cows gave birth any month of the year, so you have about the same number of babies at all time, and the same number of cows who are pregnant, etc, so you always have the same production.

About hormones, lot of people use these to get cow to grow bigger an faster, to have more meat or milk, at least some people have enough respect for the animals and for the product not to use that kind of tings. As for the genetic, of course wild cows do not have that kind of genetic pushed to the maximum on milk production.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In reply to allenWL; In dunks words, he won't implement any half assed features, if it's to be included it should be done right.

Just like how jute doesn't make good rope on its own, and how iron ores require a bloomery, cows should require breeding when being milked.

I'm 95% sure that animals will later on need to be fed to keep alive, and this will limit the amount of animals you can have.

So breeding animals might need more planning, and could be something you can't really do whenever you want.

 

While I'm not really against limiting getting milk, I don't think forcing players to get a calf every time they want milk will do much for gameplay

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My opinion as 1 of the 75% of the world's population that is lactose intolerant.  Can't even eat a slice of pizza without getting the craps.

 

If you're wanting to be realistic. I'd say on world gen, you're character rolls for a 25% chance of being able to eat dairy without adverse reactions.  Fail, and you are intolerant, period for that world.

 

Some of the reactions to lactose intolerance are doable imo, and some aren't.

Nausea, doable, in game even.

Vomiting and Diarrhea, I'm not sure anyone would want to make that happen to players lol.

flatulance, possible.

Headaches, cramps, and bloating, not really doable, though I don't think I'd be running or even walking normal speed with them three.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lactose tolerance is a genetic anomoly originally spread by Europeon farmers. There is nothing realistic about rolling randomly for genetic factors

 

Also dunkleosteus has said no to no to coding anything "disgusting"

 

If he is not willing to code manure (a valuable product with many uses), hes not willing to code vomit, diarrhea, flatulence etc

 

This is probably something that should be left to players to roleplay if they want to

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My opinion as 1 of the 75% of the world's population that is lactose intolerant.  Can't even eat a slice of pizza without getting the craps.

 

If you're wanting to be realistic. I'd say on world gen, you're character rolls for a 25% chance of being able to eat dairy without adverse reactions.  Fail, and you are intolerant, period for that world.

 

 

1 of the 75% ??? what are you talking about?

There is a huge difference in statistics on a web page and real life. according to the wiki ""Lactose intolerance" primarily refers to a syndrome having one or more symptoms upon the consumption of food substances containing lactose. Individuals may be lactose intolerant to varying degrees, depending on the severity of these symptoms. "

what they forget to say on all websites I visited is how many of that "75%" is totally unable to drink milk.

Again on the wiki

"Lactose intolerance can also be managed by ingesting live yogurt cultures containing Lactobacilli that are able to digest the Lactose in other dairy products. This may explain why many South Asians though genetically Lactose intolerant are able to consume large quantities of milk without many symptoms of Lactose intolerance. Consuming live yougurt cultures is very common in the South Asian population.[34] Lactose intolerance is not usually an absolute condition: The reduction in lactase production, and the amount of lactose that can therefore be tolerated, varies from person to person. Since lactose intolerance poses no further threat to a person's health, the condition is managed by minimizing the occurrence and severity of symptoms"

Also cheese is one of the dairy products with the lowest content of Lactose, so unless you are totally lactose intolerant a percentage of the population a lot smaller then 75% ( read this http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091105102718.htm) you should be able to eat cheese.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is going to be a bias in articles written in English. Almost every English speaking country is dominated by lactose tolerant people

 

The developed genetic anamoly is actually lactose tolerance, but given that medical terminology was written by people who are lactose tolerant.....well you get the idea

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Group think and information bias does not imply a conspiracy is at foot

 

Well the Europeon desire to dominate the world was in fact a conspiracy. But the goals of that were of course money, power, prestige etc. The genetic mutation of lactose tolerance just happened to be spread at the same time. Its not like there was some secret cabal of dairy farmers behind Europeon expansion or anything

 

That concept would be ridiculous, this was before milk refrigeration was possible. Farmers could only supply milk to local populations. And its not like farmers were politically influential at the time

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites