Better Cooking [updated again!]

[Maga 99]

Credit goes to Djakuta for inspiring me to think beyond braziers and cauldrons and create a total revision of how hunger, cooking and nutrition are managed.

When posting suggestions that deal with a specific idea in this broad topic please make sure you have looked through the detail section to ensure your post is fully informed and contextual.

Purposes of better cooking (If you just want to skim the basic ideas read this)

• [*]Create incentive for players to invest in food preparation (more early game dietary restrictions, max health better uses player diet, variety to keep the boredom away, feasts with friends ...etc) [*]A more realistic and entertaining variety of food items and recipes that uses existing ingredients [*]Implement various ways to cook different food items and recipes (ceramic and metal cookware, clay and metal ovens, pots, cauldrons, cooking in vessels ...etc) [*]Reward players who invest time in cooking with more than just a skill level (better tasting food can be eaten faster, meals that include more food groups later in the game, better ways of creating meals, fancy desserts ...etc) [*]Make use of the ceramic pot (item available in creative mode, currently not implemented) [*]Re-work the idea of meals (random ingredients that make no sense irl seem like a good placeholder to me but not a finished product) [*]More realistic cooking in fire-pits (using clay pots and cooking on coals instead of flames) [*]Multiblock ovens and iron/blue steel stoves double as efficient home heating for body temp update [*]Allow players who want to do other things to survive on basic foods while still providing benefits for spending time on fancy cooking [*]Tweaks to nutrition, hunger and taste
  

 

Detail Section (Possible ways to actually implement these ideas, open to suggestions and will be updated, key points in bold text)



General changes (nutrition, taste, hunger)

• [*]Food groups not longer all require the same amount to fill up. A balanced diet would include more fruit and vegetables and grain than meat and diary. [*]Filling up your food group bars takes a lot more work and is difficult until late-game cooking, players starting out are stuck at lower max health values (compensated by adding ways to eat grain early game) [*]The taste of all raw foods is a set value (ie: lemons/garlic lower- apple/tomato medium - peaches/blueberries higher) [*]The taste of cooked foods (except stews) is affected by cooking level. [*]Taste determines how many oz you can eat during each eating animation [*]Burnt food is still edible but will always taste terrible (eaten 1oz at a time) [*]Ounces consumed determines the hunger bar change [*]Nutritional value of food multiplied by ounces consumed determines how much the nutrition bars go up [*]Having a higher cooking level will also give you more time before food that you place in a fire/oven/stove gets burnt 
  

 

• [*]Each food group bar takes much longer to fill up and much longer to empty. Severe malnutrition should not be solved by eating 2 good meals. Neither should someone become malnourished if they go 3 days without a steak. Nutrition levels would follow the harvest cycle, at the end of the fall players would be very healthy from all the food they had gathered over the summer, as winter progresses into spring they would become less healthy unless they had preserved enough food from the year before. [*]Hunger would be less related to nutrition, think of hunger as needing mostly carbohydrates for daily energy (fruits veggies and bread) and health as an indicator of how balanced your diet was over the past month or two.
  

 

• [*]

Fun idea: Once per season (winter/spring/summer/fall) players should be able to enter a "Feasting Mode" where hunger drops 3x faster and you can still eat when you're full. Overeating would apply a slowness effect for 1-12 hours (proportional to the amount you over-eat) This would be fun to use during a feast in SMP, but would also benefit players who are malnourished after a long winter by providing them a way to quickly boost their nutrition levels after the first early crops come in. NEW!

Practical application examples if you are slightly confused by all the bullet points:
You eat raw garlic 1oz at a time, it's gross so you to eat it slow, it's not very nutritious so while you might not be hungry anymore, your max health doesn't skyrocket.
You eat raw potato 3oz at a time, it's not terrible, it's a little more nutritious but baking it would make the taste and nutritional value go way up.
You eat a banana 5oz at a time (all raw fruit tastes good except lemons and olives), good nutritional value
You eat hot apple pie 15oz at a time, even without a high cooking level it's delicious and will saturate fruit and grain bars quite a bit.
You eat a 5oz bowl of stew (8oz if savoury)  You can carry a full pot with you and it includes grain, meat and vegetables (and possibly cheese) so up to 3 food groups stay high (and maybe dairy gets a small boost)

Cooking Methods

Roasting in fire-pits

-Earliest game cooking, to use a fire-pit to cook you must use coals, not an open flame. To build up coals burn logs for a while, a "coals" bar in the fire pit GUI will fill up. 

-After the wood runs out the fire pit will continue to stay hot and emit light until the coals die, which would take quite a while.

-To cook on coals place maize or meat (except eggs) in fire pit cooking slot

-If placed in the fire pit when logs are burning it will almost always burn before it cooks. (High cooking skill lowers this chance)

-There is no output slot that cooked food magically goes to when it's done.

-If food is left in the fire 5 seconds too long it will burn

 

Boiling in ceramic pots (clay cookware)
-Early game cooking, add water to clay pot (same way you add to jugs) and place food in inventory slots, then place full pot in the fire pit cooking slot.
-Boiling certain vegetables (carrots, squash etc) will improve their nutritional content and the taste
-Can be used to boil eggs
-Can be used to boil oats or rice for early game grain consumption

-Later in the game could be used for recipes such as french onion soup (see new foods and recipes section)

-Food being boiled in ceramic pots does not burn when left in a fire, and can be cooked over a flame as well as coals

 

Baking (see Ovens and Stoves section)
-Middle to late game cooking, baking foods inside clay, fire brick and metal ovens is done the same way.
-All ovens would be used to bake dough into bread.
-Clay/brick ovens and metal stoves would be used extensively in conjunction with clay and metal cookware to cook more advanced recipes such as pies, complex breads, casseroles etc (see new foods section)

-If food is left in an oven for 30 seconds too long it will burn

-If food is left in a stove 2 minutes too long it will burn

Making Stews (see Pots and Cauldrons section)
-Middle to late game cooking, requires either a copper pot or a wrought iron cauldron

-Copper pots would hold less and would be placed over an open fire-pit to boil

-Iron cauldrons would hold a massive amount of stew but would need to be placed over top a metal stove to boil

-Stews would be able to use any meat, any grain and several types of vegetables

-They would provide the benefit of making large amounts of food portable and would be the best type of food for filling tp the meat grain and veggie nutrition bars

-They don't have a taste rating and are eaten in 5oz portions (one bowl) to maintain balance

-Doesn't burn


Grilling (see Ovens and Stoves section)
Late game cooking, using the grill on an iron stove top provides a way to cook large amounts of meat at a time with a much lower risk of burning

Ovens and Stoves NEW!

For ovens and stoves I'm not sure if applying the same "coals" mechanic requirement for cooking from the fire pit would benefit gameplay, but if it was, adding charcoal would fill the "coals" bar 4x more than burning a log.

 

Clay ovens
Multiblock structure, used for baking breads as well as poorly heating homes

Crafting

• Building a clay oven would be done one layer at a time. Placing clay blocks with a clear path to the sky and letting them sit there from dawn 'til dusk turns the clay block into hardened clay blocks
• Once each layer is dry you can add the next, when you have the entire oven built and dried, load the center with a log pile and light it to create the oven (you could just place clay blocks everywhere, wait for them to dry, mine them all then build it all at once)
• When lit, the air block in front of the log pile becomes a minecraft furnace block, re-textured to match the hardened clay blocks.
• Lit ovens would use the burning furnace block

Building the clay oven

Bottom layer

 

Middle layer

 

Top layer

 

Lighting it

 

Finished oven

 

Clay oven mechanics

 

• Right clicking the furnace block would access the GUI where you could add fuel, see temperature and add dough to the cooking slots
• Would use logs and charcoal as fuel and would burn fuel at a normal rate 
• Can cook 2 items at a time

 

Brick ovens
Multiblock structure, used for baking breads, cooking complex recipes and firing pottery faster than a pit kiln (only brick ovens could fire pottery, so they are still useful after you get an iron stove) It would also poorly heat homes

Crafting

• Same shape as clay oven
• Uses a 3x3 base of fire-bricks, layers 2 and 3 could be any brick type (requires chiseling)
• Lit the same way as clay oven, by placing a log pile and hitting it up with a fire-starter or flint&steel
• When lit, the air block in front of the log pile becomes a minecraft furnace block, re-textured to match the fire brick blocks.

Building the brick oven

Bottom layer

 

Middle layer (some chiseled blocks)

 

Top layer (all chiseled blocks)

 

Lighting it

 

Finished oven

 

Brick oven mechanics

• Right clicking the furnace block would access the GUI where you could add fuel, see temperature and add dough or cook complex recipes to the cooking slots
• Clay ovens would use logs and charcoal as fuel and would burn fuel at a slower-than-normal rate
• The brick oven could cook 4 items at a time
• If using charcoal as fuel, the brick oven would be able to fire pottery using the burn time of 3 charcoal (This is because a pit kiln can do the same 4 items at once but uses 8 logs. In a charcoal pit 8 logs produce an average of 3 charcoal so the fuel used is the same, but the pottery is finished significantly faster)

 

Wrought Iron Stoves

Placeable block, used for making breads, baking complex recipes, cooking with an iron cauldron and easily heating large homes

Crafting

• Making an iron stove is done on the anvil by working a double sheet of wrought iron, welding it with another double sheet and then working again
• If two stoves are made and placed next to each other they connect like a chest to form a large iron stove.
• The chimney can be placed in the block above a metal stove (and on either side of a double-stove). Making a chimney is done by working a double sheet of wrought iron on an anvil

Iron stove mechanics

• Right clicking the iron stove would access the GUI where you could add fuel, see temperature and add dough or cook complex recipes to the cooking slots
• Iron cauldrons can be placed in the block above the stove by shift-clicking (both a cauldron and a chimney can not occupy the same block, to use both you need a double stove)
• The iron stove could cook 6 items at a time, or in the case of a double stove, 12
• Iron stoves would burn fuel at the slowest rate, requiring little maintenance
• If a chimney is placed above the stove it will cut boiling time in half for cauldrons, double the time it takes food to burn and have a larger warming radius
• By having a double stove you can benefit from having a cauldron that also cooks at double speed by placing the cauldron on one half and the chimney on the other, double stoves would also have a larger heating radius even without a chimney
• Unlike clay and brick ovens stoves can burn charcoal and coal, when cooking food inside the stove coal can not be used, when boiling a cauldron on the stove coal works fine

 

Blue Steel Stoves 

Almost identical to iron stove but does not require constant refueling

Crafting

• Same as iron stove, but using blue steel
• They can also be placed next to each other to create a large blue steel stove

Blue steel stove mechanics

• Blue steel stoves can also use the chimney block to decrease cook times by 50%
• They can cook the same number of items as the iron stove
• The advantage of blue steel stoves is that they use lava as fuel, a single lava bucket will fuel a blue steel stove indefinitely or until the stove is moved
• Moving the stove requires that a new lava bucket be emptied into the stove as fuel

 

Cookware & Cauldrons NEW!

Cookware

Made of clay or metal, clay having a chance to break, iron cookware being indestructible

For the sake of simplicity clay cookware would be the same ceramic pot item used for boiling veggies/oats/rice/eggs in early game cooking

Metal cookware would be worked from an iron sheet and would give you 2 pieces of cookware

Cookware would be used for making and baking the complex recipes, in order to make using the cookware beneficial, food baked in cookware should decay slowly enough to justify the effort required to make it. Surviving off basic bread, boiled veggies, cooked meat etc would be possible, but throwing a feast with your friends where everyone gets drunk and eats delicious pies and casseroles would be super fun.

 

Iron Cauldrons

 

Cauldron mechanics

• Worked on anvil from a double wrought iron sheet
• Cauldrons would be placed and picked up via shift+right click with cauldron/rempty hand, respectively
• Right clicking a cauldron with stew in it while holding a bowl would fill the bowl
• There would be an EMPTY button in the cauldron GUI to dump the last 1-4 oz of stew
• There would be a COOK button used to create the stew (see below)
• The GUI contains 6 slots where full stacks of food (160oz) can be placed 
• These 6 slots would accept items from the vegetable, meat and grain categories.
• The GUI would also have 3 slots for 20oz food stacks where players would add additional ingredients such as garlic, onions, or rock salt to apply the Savory effect, boosting the taste to allow a bowl to contain 8oz (for more info on the Savory effect, check the new foods and recipes section)

Please note: One vessel can hold 640oz of food in a single inventory space, so a 60+ lb stew is a lot, but not unbalanced. In fact, considering the effort involved in making stews I suggest that stew in cauldrons not be affected by decay, or if it is, make it compound at only +5% per day so that players actually want to make stew instead of surviving off a vessel of assorted food groups from early game cooking.

 

Making stew

-Fill at least 4 of the 6 main slots with 160oz of undecayed food stacks

-Optionally add savory ingredients

-If not already done, place cauldron on top a metal stove block not occupied by a chimney

-Open stove GUI and hit the COOK button, this takes away the GUI (same as sealing a barrel) until the stew is done

-For the cauldron to boil the stove must remain at or above cooking temperature for 1 minute (or 30 seconds if using a double stove with a chimney)

 

Copper Cauldrons

-Given that players could hold so much bread, boiled vegetables, cooked meat, fresh fruit or cheese in a single vessel, making a copper cauldron with reduced carrying capacity seems rather redundant to me. I don't think there is a good reason to add this, I've only included it here to let you know I've considered the idea. Leaving cauldrons at iron encourages progression.

 

 

 

 

New Foods and Recipes (coming soon)

[ante185 6]

Would it really hurt that much to include copper ect pots and such?

[TonyLiberatto 364]

Ok I concede. Upon some research I found that copper was actually used for pans and pots. before the invention of the gas burner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cookware_and_bakeware and http://www.whatmyhomewants.com/the-history-of-copper-cookware/

The problem with copper is that it can poison the food specially if cooking acidic things like tomatoes. 

Now we just have to think how to include copper and bronze cookware in the technology tree.

More research show that we actually had copper braziers. I haven't found a copper oven.

Maybe we should remember that stone ovens to this day are still in use in pizzerias and restaurants. 

The main advantage of the combo stove oven iron cast was in how well it could control the fire and smoke. Needing less maintenance then the stone and mortar ones.

[Maga 99]

I have a few ideas but I'm still at work. One of which is for copper pots to be used over campfires and iron cauldron over top a forge or brazier. Copper pots would only handle smaller batches of porridge or stew etc

[TonyLiberatto 364]

I found that old copper pans had a lining of Tin and over time it had to be re-coat usually once a year. maybe that would give us one more reason to upgrade to iron.

[Maga 99]

That's a lot of code for something small like that. But I agree early game cooking should have things be less durable. It might be better to just simulate this by having them have a chance to break every time they are heated.

[TonyLiberatto 364]

That could work. I don't think I should care too much about every single detail. In the end thats what this posts should be about.

If everybody contribute with ideas and suggestions we can help the devs figure out what works and what would be worth the time to code into the game. 

[Maga 99]

That could work. I don't think I should care too much about every single detail. In the end thats what this posts should be about.

If everybody contribute with ideas and suggestions we can help the devs figure out what works and what would be worth the time to code into the game. 

 

My personal style tends to be much more detail oriented. I start out with several broad goals and then brainstorm specific ways to achieve those goals. 

[TonyLiberatto 364]

I would really appreciate if you could contribute with details to the topic. If you message me I can include then on the OP.

I am a terrible writer so I have a real hard time trying to structure the ideas in a concise way.

Also if someone could help with a few designs it would be great. 

[Maga 99]

It uses most of your ideas combined with some of my own. I suspect it might be easier for everyone to follow If I manage the OP, no disrespect intended, I just love going to detail and formatting/organizing ideas. I used a lot of your suggestions and I think they are really making it into something wonderful. You were totally on the right track with focusing on ovens.

 

I'm pretty sure the devs won't add pizza and lasagna (just a little too modern and complicated) but advanced recipes are coming tomorrow or the day after that, depending on my free time, msg me ideas.

 

I still need to work out the details of crafting and using clay and iron ovens as well as a comprehensive list of food items but it's midnight for me and I work tomorrow. I'll start a private conversation with you where we can collaborate on managing the OP.

 

@Kitty, not sure what you'd prefer to do about the double thread. I've already started merging them in an attractive and coherent way (with Djakuta's permission of course) so I guess... umm... do yo thang :3

[Kittychanley 1,002]

That was quite the mess to clean up, but everything relevant should be merged over here now.

[Necoxus 54]

Umm...I like a lot of the ideas here, I have had my own ideas a lot like these. I currently have a doc file that i contain them in, I will say that an add on may be on its way. But could still be a month or two. Also I will put links to all the topics with content that is in my add on, even if my idea didn't come from them.

[TonyLiberatto 364]

That was quite the mess to clean up, but everything relevant should be merged over here now.

Thank you very much

[Maga 99]

Been talking to Djakuta a bit and finally added clay and brick ovens! (for making bread and faster pottery)

 

Let me know what you guys think, also, feel free to make suggestions. I'm regularly updating the OP with new info so any good ideas are welcome and will be added immediately!

 

 

@Kitty, Thanks for cleaning that up, much appreciated.

[AllenWL 186]

I do like tastes deciding how much food you can eat at once, but can't you eat one food multiple times?

I think it will be nice if the 'hunger bar' filled depending on how many times you ate, and not now many oz you ate.

The difference between 'poor' food and 'good' food would be in nutrition and saturation.

 

Say, if you hunger bar is empty, you can eat 5 bites of food(i think multiples of 5 would be good. Then, you can eat all five food groups every meal).

You can choose to eat five bits of steak, or five bits of lemon. You're hunger bar will be completely full on both choices, but with steak, you'll eat more oz of it, and other than filling up more nutrition, it will also fill up more saturation, so you can go longer without getting hungry again. On the other hand, you'll eat less oz of the lemon, but it'll give little nutrition. Also, the low saturation you get will make you hungry faster.

So the more nutritions in your food and the tastier it is, the more saturation and nutrition you can get per meal.

 

If you already wrote this down, I apologize, but I didn't see it, so...

 

I do like the 'burns if left too long' thing. This is slightly off topic, but I think the firepit should have no 'output' slot, and all things, if heated up too high, should burn and get ruined.

 

I think it'll be nice to have spices/herbs/seasoning to improve flavor.

Other then basic seasoning(salt, honey, etc), it should take lots of preparation to prepare spices/seasoning(drying, grinding, etc) so it won't be a early-game thing.

Also. there should be limitations to seasoning/spices. For example, some seasoning don't go with some foods(ingredients) and too much seasoning is bad as well.

For example, pepper, salt, and oregano might be nice on beef, but it won't be nice on bananas(at least, I don't think it will be...) and while sugar might be nice on pies, too much sugar(say, 50oz of sugar in a 100oz pie) will not be good at all.

 

Also, I think all food that was made over a fire/by heating should be heat-able to make it a bit more tasty.

 

And lastly, I think that the earliest cooking method should be grinding and mixing.

We should be able to get a bowl of water by right-clicking water with a bowl, and we should be able to grind some things into 'rough flour' or 'mush' by crafting it with two stones(I don't think this justifies a block, so... we craft. We're pretending that we crush the whatever it is between the stones) stones are returned.

Then, we mix the ingredients, rough flour and mush in a bowl(with water if you want) to get food. No need to add everything. even things like a bowl of water with some rough flour can make food

Will be smidgen better then raw ingredients, but not by much, can be heated.

(also, if rough flour can be heating to make a sorta bread, would that make a ok bread replacement? The only other things I can think of is oatmeal and cooked rice, and I don't know how to make oatmeal, and cooked rice needs something with a cover to cook, so.....)

[dutchraptor 20]

All I ask for is porridge.

I would rather start my day with porridge than oat bread.

[Maga 99]

Hunger bar is determined solely on how many ounces are eaten. Anything other than that doesn't make sense or would be was waayyy to complex.

 

My logic for this:

I can eat a raw onion or bulb of garlic if I'm starving, but I won't be eating 1oz of raw garlic as fast as I would enjoy a delicious 1oz piece of steak. Hence terrible tasting foods taking a long time to eat lots of. This provides more incentive to learn to cook tasty dishes so that filling up the hunger bar by eating the same 25oz of food can be done in just 2-3 eating animations instead of 25.You are spot on about firepit cooking. When my steak is done it shouldnt magically pop out of the fire into safety.If you look at the section for boiling vegetables and grains in pots (cooking methods) you will see I hint at porridge and rice for early game grain consumption. More details will be added when I start working on the New Foods section.Thanks for the great feedback guys, I'll integrate it when I get home from work.

[Maga 99]

Added wrought iron and blue steel stoves! They boil cauldrons of stew, cook lots at once, save on fuels and heat your home while looking sexy! 

 

blue steel stove use lava as infinite fuel

 

feedback plz :3

[AllenWL 186]

Well, if it makes a magic bucket that can move and re-move springs that sprout lava endlessly..... why not use it to make a stove that runs on lava indefinitely?

I like it. It makes blue steel a bit more worthwhile to get.

....

I suppose we need a redsteel cooler that uses water something now....

 

Anyways, I just realized something.

Some food are cooked/eaten cold, not hot. And some foods require you to chill it during cooking

Do you guys think cold food is feasible, or no?

I think with ice, water, and cold natural temperatures something might be doable...

 

That said, does hot temperatures keep hot food hot longer?

[Maga 99]

Most of what you said remains to be seen with the details of B79

 

I do remember reading a comment from Kitty, she mentioned that Bioxx was looking at red steel sheets keeping ice from melting, which would serve as indefinite refrigeration, more or less. Red and blue steel seem to be semi-magic elemental steels in regards to dealing with water/cold and heat/fire. My opinion is that once a player gets red/blue steel they shouldn't have to go through the same daily grind to stay alive and should be able to focus more on creativity, hence my idea for the blue steel stove.

[Maga 99]

I'll do a bit of spoilers now for the upcoming foods section. Instead of asking devs to add another 6 plants for spices, I plan to have many of the complex dishes have 2 crafting recipes, one using basic ingredients and one that would include things like olives, onions, garlic etc. These would have the *savory tooltip and would have a taste boost applied as well as weigh more. In regards to heating food, I think food best eaten hot (steak, baked potatoes, pies, banana loaf etc) should taste better when hot, it just makes sense.

[AllenWL 186]

But there are some foods you'd rather eat cold, you know?

I think other the the warming/hot things, we should have something for cold as well, like cool/cold/freezing.

 

I mean, I'd rather have a cold salad than a hot one, and I know lots of food that are eaten cold and not hot(granted, I don't think most of them are in TFC, but....)

[Necoxus 54]

The one thing that I will point out is.....yea most of these ideas are kinda believable. However the stoves are a pretty advanced, We use stuff a lot like that in modern times. In revolutionary times cooking(in America, idk about other places) was done over open flame in a fireplace, granted spits and pots can/were hug over them to cook. I do understand you want to stop the grind at a certain point, but things like checking crops, and cooking food....are things done everyday IRL.....the ability to toss stuff in a fancy stove and do whatever is a bit crazy. With the open pit cooking something like cooking over the pit kiln, and/or just cooking over a flaming log pile is understandable.

 

If I misunderstood the your idea please, correct me....don't wanna create crazy replies to things for no reason.

[Maga 99]

The earliest evidence of Iron stoves comes from the 1700's.

While this is not in the specific timeline that TFC is designed to take place in, I believe making an iron stove to heat your home still has a place in TFC.

The blue steel stove is optional (as is everything else, obviously, since this is just a suggestion thread) If the devs don't like iron stoves or lava fueled blue-steel then they simply don't have to add it.

 

In regards to cold vs hot foods assume common sense will be used. I too, do not like hot lettuce.

[Maga 99]

Due to differing opinions Djakuta and I are parting ways. I will continue to manage this OP and will still be updating it on the regular. Feedback is still as welcome as ever.

NEW ADDITIONS!

-added "Cookware & Cauldrons" section

-added a fun new way to gorge yourself during a feast with friends or after a harvest, look for the NEW tag in the "General Changes" section

Let me know what you guys think!

Also, I have finally gotten to the section for fancy cooking recipes and would love for you guys to start suggesting specific things you want to cook, try to keep recipes around 10-20 lbs. (160-320 oz) Keep in mind that by the time players have a brick oven to cook things in cookware, they will need graphite, which means they already have metal and a saw, so the full 3x3 crafting grid can be used.

Here are some examples:

SHEPARD'S PIE

1x 160oz potato

2x 60oz beans/maize/carrot/onion

1x 40oz any dough

cookware

-ingredients crafted together

-cooked in brick oven/metal stove

FRENCH ONION SOUP

1x 80oz onion

1x 40oz any bread

1x 40oz cheese

-ingredients placed in clay pot (with water)

-boiled in a campfire

BERRY TART

3x 60oz any berry

1x 40oz any dough

16x sugar

cookware

-ingredients crafted in grid

-cooked in brick oven/metal stove