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jammasterz

Is this a bug?

22 posts in this topic

Hi there. I was doing a few things at the same time while i was preparing to build my bloomery and i shift clicked in a bronze ingot into my crucible where i was getting my bronze from. This is what happened:

http://imgur.com/nuft0bG

Bronze is made from copper and tin, so shouldn't adding bronze to that crucible just melt it and not wreck all the metal in it?

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Once a alloy is made, that alloy will be a new metal type essentially, so yeah if you add it to a alloy mix its going to screw things up a bit.

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Some of the late game alloys are alloys of multiple alloys. If we split alloys into their components, the recipes would get very complicated.

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There have been a lot of discussion and I would even say debate about that issue. Some people seems to think that mixing alloys with their component could somehow cheat the recipe.

 

Even if I think that it's mathematically impossible to cheat the % of every kind of metal by mixing an alloy with it's component (if the right formula is used), however, I agree that things like "deconstruction alloys" in the crucible is a bad idea ans dunk sait, it would get very complicated. I also agree that the formula I would use could be hard to use without  using a lot of math for the player, ending up with lof of other problems.

 

My idea would be that the alloy A is made of 75 to 80 % of X and and 20 to 25% of Y. and T is total of final alloy A

The formula would be to test something like if .75 < X/(T-A) > .80 and .20 < Y/(T-A) > .25 . The only problem, is that you would have to multiply your X an Y limit by the % of A to get the new range, for example if you put 50% of A, then the range of X would habe to be from 37.5 to 40 % and Y from 10 to 12.5 %.

 

In other words, not impossible, but complicated.

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There have been a lot of discussion and I would even say debate about that issue. Some people seems to think that mixing alloys with their component could somehow cheat the recipe.

 

Even if I think that it's mathematically impossible to cheat the % of every kind of metal by mixing an alloy with it's component (if the right formula is used), however, I agree that things like "deconstruction alloys" in the crucible is a bad idea ans dunk sait, it would get very complicated. I also agree that the formula I would use could be hard to use without  using a lot of math for the player, ending up with lof of other problems.

 

My idea would be that the alloy A is made of 75 to 80 % of X and and 20 to 25% of Y. and T is total of final alloy A

The formula would be to test something like if .75 < X/(T-A) > .80 and .20 < Y/(T-A) > .25 . The only problem, is that you would have to multiply your X an Y limit by the % of A to get the new range, for example if you put 50% of A, then the range of X would habe to be from 37.5 to 40 % and Y from 10 to 12.5 %.

 

In other words, not impossible, but complicated.

 

Or live with it and be careful just you are with everthing else tfc

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I reported this issue before when making blue steel from alloys. So the solution is to cast the alloys first, then mix them back into the crucible.

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Hmm, i understand that it would be a lot of extra space needed if the recipes were saved within the ready ingots.

But it seems really bad that this kind of bug is in the game. What do you think about this:

 

If type of metal that is thrown into the crucible == type of resulting metal that is already in crucible {

    split the metal into its base components with the same ratio that is already in the crucible

}

 

This solution isn't perfect because it would ignore the ratios of the alloy that is thrown into the crucible, but i think its better to have this that loosing entire crucible filled with precious metal.

 

Alternatively you could only store one level of ratios within an ingot so that for example:

Blue steel only has info about the ratios of Black Steel, Bismuth Bronze, Sterling Silver and Steel, and the info about ratios of all these alloys is lost.

 

This way the ingot would properly split into its counterparts within the crucible. This would lower the chance of destroying whats within the crucible because its unlikely that player has other metals in his inventory than the one he's casting. This would also prevent players from cheating as @aliceingame said, but i don't see how one would do that.

 

Those solutions won't allow to for example increase the ratio of Sterling silver by adding a little of gold and silver into the crucible, but it would prevent the loss of metal on the top level of mixing alloys.

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The reason that alloys don't split into their components is 2-fold. First, it would make the more advanced alloys rather complex and second, that we would have to record data on the exact metal ratio for the alloy. Using the average won't work, for example if a player had only enough cassiterite to make 5 ingots at 8% tin : 92% copper (ie 40 units of tin), they could take the bronze out and then put it back into the crucible where it would now register as 50 units of tin to which they could add more copper until they had slightly more than 5 ingots of bronze. They could repeat this process to stretch those 40 units of tin as far as they liked.

 

Storing the alloy ratio isn't impossible per se, but it would complicate some things such as ingot piles.

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The reason that alloys don't split into their components is 2-fold. First, it would make the more advanced alloys rather complex and second, that we would have to record data on the exact metal ratio for the alloy. Using the average won't work, for example if a player had only enough cassiterite to make 5 ingots at 8% tin : 92% copper (ie 40 units of tin), they could take the bronze out and then put it back into the crucible where it would now register as 50 units of tin to which they could add more copper until they had slightly more than 5 ingots of bronze. They could repeat this process to stretch those 40 units of tin as far as they liked.

 

Storing the alloy ratio isn't impossible per se, but it would complicate somethings such as ingot piles.

 

 

Decomposing the inglot back into it's base components in indeed not a good idea. What do you think about what I exposed in this post?

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Hmm, i understand that it would be a lot of extra space needed if the recipes were saved within the ready ingots.

But it seems really bad that this kind of bug is in the game. What do you think about this:

 

If type of metal that is thrown into the crucible == type of resulting metal that is already in crucible {

    split the metal into its base components with the same ratio that is already in the crucible

}

 

This solution isn't perfect because it would ignore the ratios of the alloy that is thrown into the crucible, but i think its better to have this that loosing entire crucible filled with precious metal.

 

Alternatively you could only store one level of ratios within an ingot so that for example:

Blue steel only has info about the ratios of Black Steel, Bismuth Bronze, Sterling Silver and Steel, and the info about ratios of all these alloys is lost.

 

This way the ingot would properly split into its counterparts within the crucible. This would lower the chance of destroying whats within the crucible because its unlikely that player has other metals in his inventory than the one he's casting. This would also prevent players from cheating as @aliceingame said, but i don't see how one would do that.

 

Those solutions won't allow to for example increase the ratio of Sterling silver by adding a little of gold and silver into the crucible, but it would prevent the loss of metal on the top level of mixing alloys.

 

Why do you need to put the alloys back in the pot?

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Hmm or maybe make a config option for clumpy players that makes it so that:

 

If resulting alloy type in crucible == alloy type that you try to input{

   do nothing

}

This will prevent users from loosing entire crucibles worth of metal if they by accident shift click one of the resulting ingots.

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or simply remove unknown metal completely:

 

If metal that you try to input will cause unknown metal{

   do nothing

}

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or simply remove unknown metal completely:

 

If metal that you try to input will cause unknown metal{

   do nothing

}

then there's no risk

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The risk of adding a wrong metal into your alloy making it useless is very nice, because its true. I proposed the solutions I did only to prevent very unpleasant bug where your alloy gets corrupted by itself which is absurd, but hard to fix.

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There's a reason this is listed in big, bold, letters twice on the wiki:

 

http://wiki.terrafirmacraft.com/Alloys

http://wiki.terrafirmacraft.com/Crucible#Mixing_Alloys

 

Note: Only the listed ingredients can be mixed to create the valid alloy. Adding a completed alloy to a mixture of the alloy will result in useless Unknown Metal. (Example: Adding Unshaped Bronze to a correct mixture of Tin and Copper)

 

And it's also listed on the official bug list:

 

http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/4662-read-before-posting-7817-official-bug-list/

 

Name: Alloy Mixing (Annoying)

Description: Adding the output metal to a mixture results in unknown metal. Example: Adding bronze to a copper/tin mixture.
Semi-Fix: Shift clicking unshaped ingots into the crucible now places them into the output slot to reduce accidental additions.

 

 

Also, the chance of this mistake you made happening is very small. Especially considering that the only time an ingot that is shift-clicked into the crucible would immediately ruin your batch is if the ingot was almost at melting point to start with. If any other metal item is added to the crucible, it actually takes a few seconds before it heats up enough to melt in and destroy the mixture. So even if you shift clicked a cold ingot, you'd have a few seconds to notice your mistake and pull it out. The only exception to this rule is unshaped ingots, which is why they are shift-clicked into the output slot instead of the input one.

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There is a high chance of this happening if you are molding ingots at the same time as you take them out of the casts, make them into tools and reheat them in the forge at the same time.

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Why don't we stop calling it a "BUG" and just call it a "feature" 

 

or simply remove unknown metal completely:

 

If metal that you try to input will cause unknown metal{

   do nothing

}

 

 

Hmm or maybe make a config option for clumpy players that makes it so that:

 

If resulting alloy type in crucible == alloy type that you try to input{

   do nothing

}

This will prevent users from loosing entire crucibles worth of metal if they by accident shift click one of the resulting ingots.

I'm sorry is TFC to hard.. one doesn't simply TFC

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Why don't we stop calling it a "BUG" and just call it a "feature" 

 

 

 

I'm sorry is TFC to hard.. one doesn't simply TFC

 

 

I would call it a bug as long as it make no sense. I could imagine some instances where you could think about adding a source of bronze to a bronze mixture, for example to recycle metal items like an anvil or maybe a sheet or double ingots.

 

I don't know if people checked what I said, but I am the only one who made a proposition that would not be a possible exploit or making the game easier. If fact it would make the math a bit harder in that specific case.

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I would call it a bug as long as it make no sense. I could imagine some instances where you could think about adding a source of bronze to a bronze mixture, for example to recycle metal items like an anvil or maybe a sheet or double ingots.

 

I don't know if people checked what I said, but I am the only one who made a proposition that would not be a possible exploit or making the game easier. If fact it would make the math a bit harder in that specific case.

 

Still don't see a NEED to change this feature,

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Why do we call it a bug? Because it's not intentional and not wanted. And why do we need to see this gone? Because it's a bug. A partial fix was made, but the bug's still there.

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The reason that alloys don't split into their components is 2-fold. First, it would make the more advanced alloys rather complex and second, that we would have to record data on the exact metal ratio for the alloy. Using the average won't work, for example if a player had only enough cassiterite to make 5 ingots at 8% tin : 92% copper (ie 40 units of tin), they could take the bronze out and then put it back into the crucible where it would now register as 50 units of tin to which they could add more copper until they had slightly more than 5 ingots of bronze. They could repeat this process to stretch those 40 units of tin as far as they liked.

 

Storing the alloy ratio isn't impossible per se, but it would complicate some things such as ingot piles.

 

Why do we call it a bug? Because it's not intentional and not wanted. And why do we need to see this gone? Because it's a bug. A partial fix was made, but the bug's still there.

 

incase you didn't read it the first time.

Now think of it as a feature to stop people form abusing the system. 

This has been dig up over and over and the same anwser is given everytime. If its that hard for you to deal with then A: just deal with it B: dont play

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Yeah, I chose the latter. Too laggy for smooth gameplay in my laptop.

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