Oxygen and Height

[ProNerdPanda 0]

Copying this from a Reddit post I made, I tried to look in the forum for a similar one but I either didn't see it or it's not there (probably the first)

 

"I was watching a Youtube video (Etho) and he was building a tower in the Sky to preserve food, something that came to me (and further read in the comment section) that at that height there shouldn't almost be any Oxygen

So it came to me, why not add in the mod a feature that implements the "breathing" effect from underwater the more you go higher?

That would cause a severe skill enhancement to "mountain climbing", and the ability to breathe more would be like other abilities (agriculture and such), the more you go up, the more you can resist at that height"

 

And I quote:

 

"Actually, OP's idea is a really good way to handle that nerf, too. Sure, you can still build the towers, but setting them up (and running up to them for food) will involve a lot more risk since you have a finite timer before you start taking damage."

[Visitor 36]

That.. could be amusing. I could enjoy such feature.

However, I'd make it somewhat more believable than some skill (in fact, I'd rather avoid adding new skill just for climbing). Length of the oxygen bar/oxygen depletion speed changing depending on the height is a very nice idea, but instead of getting special skill, making non-moving (as in, not walking or jumping anywhere) character slowly regain breath would be both more realistic (like in real life, while general conditioning is important, even a person losing breath during a climb can regain it slowly by having, well, a breather) and less restrictive. Plus, dare I say, I'd find it personally more fun.

[dutchraptor 20]

I think it's a good way to combat the sky refrigerator.

Though, we'll have to see what have bioxx or dunk have come up wit hfirst since I recall reading that they were nerfing it anyways.

[Palisight 34]

Unless sea level altitude has changed since January, sea level is at around y=140

 

Therefore the max height of the world is 116 m (unless this changed)

 

Lets put it this way, you have 50.2% as much oxygen (compared to sea level) at 5486 m

 

Breathing should not be a problem (a rough calculation gives about 98.6% of sea level oxygen at max world height)

 

The real problem here is the temperature change with height is unrealistic

 

At max world height there would be approximately a 0.75 C temperature decrease compared to sea level

 

There clearly was a realism compromise to create snowy mountains, and it created a exploit

 

Something tells me the devs should rescale the temperature decrease with height

 

They can rescale world with a higher altitude limit than allowed in vanilla Minecraft if they want snowy mountains

[ProNerdPanda 0]

Unless sea level altitude has changed since January, sea level is at around y=140

 

Therefore the max height of the world is 116 m (unless this changed)

 

Lets put it this way, you have half as much oxygen (compared to sea level) at 5500 m

 

Breathing should not be a problem

 

Solutions to this supposed problem (we really don't know if this will be unbalanced until the body temperature and food preservation work is completed) should probably wait until we know it is a problem

 

As far as I know Minecraft meters != Real meters, buy that standard all mountains in Minecraft should be less than, what? 200? 250mt High?

Also IIRC Minecraft's Sea level is 62 / 63ish

[Palisight 34]

TFC changed sea level. I'm guessing they wanted more underground area for more accurate stratification layers

[Kittychanley 1,002]

Unless sea level altitude has changed since January, sea level is at around y=140

 

Therefore the max height of the world is 116 m (unless this changed)

 

Lets put it this way, you have 50.2% as much oxygen (compared to sea level) at 5486 m

 

Breathing should not be a problem (a rough calculation gives about 98.6% of sea level oxygen at max world height)

 

The real problem here is the temperature change with height is unrealistic

 

At max world height there would be approximately a 0.75 C temperature decrease compared to sea level

 

There clearly was a realism compromise to create snowy mountains, and it created a exploit

 

Something tells me the devs should rescale the temperature decrease with height

 

They can rescale world with a higher altitude limit than allowed in vanilla Minecraft if they want snowy mountains

 

From a different topic regarding this same general discussion:

 

Just something to keep in mind, the decrease of temperature due to increasing altitude has already been scaled to account for the limited world height. So even though most people take the 1 block = 1 meter literally, TFC actually scales from sea-level up to y-584 (so about 450 blocks) to be the equivalent of actual sea-level all the way up to the lower-upper troposphere, or about 11,000 meters.

 

The official commit message reads as follows:

 

Also updated height-based temperature. IRL, temperature declines linearly with altitude from sea level, but to replicate this in TFC causes weirdness due to the scale. instead, temperature decreases exponentially from sea level to 255, reaching the same decrease as it would have had it acted linearly. Temperature decreases linearly after this, until y = 584, which represents the lower-upper troposphere. above 11 km irl, temperature remains constant for the most part.

 

So the temperature gradient isn't "realistic" because TFC isn't trying to be realistic. Dunk already put a lot of thought into this system when he first implemented it. It wasn't like he pulled the rate at which temperature changes out of nowhere. We have to work within the limitations of Minecraft when it comes to world generation (256 blocks) because this is a mod for Minecraft, not its own game. It has been considered to possibly lower sea-level to something closer to 120, but that really isn't going to make much of a difference in this case. We need the higher sea level to account for all of the stone layers and everything going on below, but people still want to see snow-capped mountains in their worlds, so there has to be compromise.

[Palisight 34]

The devs are making a TC that isn't compatible with most mods

 

The world has been changed completely and most of the resources have been completely replaced

 

Yet changing the world max height is off limits?

 

The technical height limit for Minecraft is 60,000,000 blocks

 

A 896 block height isn't a problem

[Kittychanley 1,002]

No, TFC is not like Better Than Wolves where it is meant to be the end-all be-all mod that is the only one installed. We want TFC to work with other mods, and we are constantly working on adding more and more compatibility. In 78 we added TFCOres.cfg so that other mod ores could be added to world gen, in 79 we've added a bunch of entries to the ore dictionary so that you can use TFC materials with other mods.

 

You cannot change the world height to any value other than 256 with out base editing the core classes of Minecraft. This would make the mod no longer compatible with forge, or with any other mod.

[Palisight 34]

http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/2134-cubic-chunks-in-tfc

 

Ok the devs have considered raising the max world height. Its sounds like they basically thought it was too much work to be worth it (at that point why not just make a new game)

 

Which is a valid point. Why would you want to rewrite a entire game rather than make your own

[ProNerdPanda 0]

http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/2134-cubic-chunks-in-tfc

 

Ok the devs have considered raising the max world height. Its sounds like they basically thought it was too much work to be worth it (at that point why not just make a new game)

 

Which is a valid point. Why would you want to rewrite a entire game rather than make your own

Either my clock is going nuts or that post is like 2 years old

[Palisight 34]

My post was not meant to imply the devs were currently evaluating implementing cubic chunks, only that they did evaluate it and decided not to do it

 

I was basically providing proof that the devs said no to the topic, as well as providing a factually correct reason for it not to be done

 

Kittychanley, while being well meaning hasn't figured out the real reason Better Than Wolves is incompatible with everything is that FlowerChild wants it to be that way. Post 3.22 BTW (the last forge version) has been made compatible with forge mods, but of course can't be distributed due to copyright reasons. It is also probably true a cubic chunks version of forge could be made and broken compatibility with mods could be made with patches

 

This of course would be a lot of work and the devs don't want to do it. Which is all that really needs to be said about the subject

[dunkleosteus 2,425]

On earth, temperature decreases linearly for the first 11 km or so as you go up, and this is the area I wanted to replicate. I think the actual calculations try to mimic the temperature change between sea level and 2.5 km on earth between TFC's sea level and the world height of 255 blocks, but instead of doing this linearly (as it would get weirdly cold a few blocks above the ocean) it does so quadratically. Each block represents more distance as you go up, which is why in Etho's video the temperature was getting colder faster as he went up.

 

Oxygen might be a factor, but it shouldn't cause any problems: "However, most people can ascend to 2,400 metres (8,000 ft) without difficulty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude_sickness

[TonyLiberatto 364]

I think oxygen related to height is a interesting concept, but I don't think we are ready to go there. We are just about to get B79 with the concept of body temperature. Who knows all the problems that will be associated with that?

I think most mountains are climbable without the need of oxygen tanks. Not a climber myself just the impression I have .

I think only the very high mountains cause that much trouble. You may be a little light headed as you get to the top but problems only start after 5000 meters and the death zone is above 8000 meters.

So we should think of minecraft mountains as all being bellow 2500 meters.

As for the storage Thing I think a solution would be to have a expiration date on foods. So no mater what you do with food it would not last more than one year.

I do believe we need more ways to preserve food, like dry or smoke meat and dry fruits. Raw grains should last for one year if store in a clay vessel or a straw basket. 

[Palisight 34]

The problem here is that climbing a mountain (or in Minecraft fasion making stone stairs up a mountain) in real life is a difficult task, while maintaining a Medieval style refrigerator requires time and resources*

 

If the mountain was to scale in Minecraft it would be a huge task to make such a stone staircase up such a mountain, and be time consuming to walk up and down, but a stone staircase to the top from sea level is only a ~164 m (approximating the staircase as 45 deg angle)

Why maintain a Medieval refrigerator if you have a short climb to the top of the mountain?

 

Now if exaustion could be tied to the quadratic y value, this wouldn't be a problem. You'd walk/mine/jump the correct length and lose the correct amount of nuitrition even though you visually only went 164 m or so

 

Anything balance changes purely temperature related would also affect low elevation people, so the solution would also have to have elevation components

 

I can't think of any other solutions other than the obvious one of rescaling the world so all the blocks are 8 m^3 instad of 1 m^3, which has issues of 2m tall chickens and 4m tall cows/sheep etc

 

*I used Medieval style refrigerator as a hypothetical example that may or may not ever be implemented in TFC as it was the closest historical comparison to skybox refrigerators. Other food preservation methods could be substituted for the examples in this post

[TonyLiberatto 364]

I think the whole problem is because we don't have the food preservation implemented yet.

Once we have the right way of preserving food. Especially if it has a time limit. No one is going to build the sky refrigerator.

So there will be no need to add all that lack of oxygen.

Sometimes when traveling you have to choose between going around a mountain biome or going up. I would hate to not be able to go up a mountain.

And what about constructions? Some people like to build castles on top on hills just for how cool they look.

What if I see exposed copper or Kaolinite on the top of a mountain? I would not be able to mine it.

So altitude is not just about sky freezers.  

[Visitor 36]

I think the whole problem is because we don't have the food preservation implemented yet.Once we have the right way of preserving food. Especially if it has a time limit. No one is going to build the sky refrigerator.So there will be no need to add all that lack of oxygen.

To be honest, I'd enjoy such feature not only for the sake of balancing surreal ways of preserving food but also for the sake of exploration. I'd like to see a bit more varied terrain in TFC, with steep, but simply tall and vast mountains with their own biomes and secrets awaiting explorer - and such oxygen deprivation mechanic used when said explorer would go about his business.

[TonyLiberatto 364]

To be honest, I'd enjoy such feature not only for the sake of balancing surreal ways of preserving food but also for the sake of exploration. I'd like to see a bit more varied terrain in TFC, with steep, but simply tall and vast mountains with their own biomes and secrets awaiting explorer - and such oxygen deprivation mechanic used when said explorer would go about his business.

I can see your point of view. I love exploring and usually go for thousands of blocks before choosing a place to set.

The OP was talking about oxygen deprivation and how the idea was presented as a way to prevent player from building and using sky freezers.

So if altitude was to affect us that fast ,one way or another it would limit how long we could stay on top of a mountain.

I am the first one to ask for realism in the mod but I have to agree with Dunk. Just suppose all mountains in the game are below 2500 meters so no need for oxygen tanks.( You only need that over 5000 meters)

 

On earth, temperature decreases linearly for the first 11 km or so as you go up, and this is the area I wanted to replicate. I think the actual calculations try to mimic the temperature change between sea level and 2.5 km on earth between TFC's sea level and the world height of 255 blocks, but instead of doing this linearly (as it would get weirdly cold a few blocks above the ocean) it does so quadratically. Each block represents more distance as you go up, which is why in Etho's video the temperature was getting colder faster as he went up.

 

Oxygen might be a factor, but it shouldn't cause any problems: "However, most people can ascend to 2,400 metres (8,000 ft) without difficulty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude_sickness

 

[Juan Vino 8]

You don't really need oxygen tanks at 5000m, in fact you can still be perfectly normal, except you'll get tired quicker, but you can walk a few hundred meters (Asuming you're in a plateau, not hiking; which you still won't need them) and be perfect. Some people start to need them when they're around 7000m, others don't until a bit higher. It all depends on how well you adapt.

[Maga 99]

I am the first one to ask for realism in the mod

Lol. Nope.Plenty of people ask for reality simulator 2014, but the people who stick around tend to be the ones who quickly realized that reality doesn't always make the best mod for minecraft. If by now you still haven't read kitty's signature I suggest you give it more consideration. If you want perfectly real mountain climbing go climb a perfectly real mountain.Also, please remember the that once food preservation gets fleshed out in the next build people won't need sky freezers as much. Even if they do make one the body temperature mechanics that dunk recently outlined should do a nice job of making it a little less easy to use. Have faith. The devs do a good job, but good things take time. Body temperature might very well take care of the oxygen concern without the need to code a whole new mechanic. I'm content to wait and see what the preservation and temperature updates will hold before I start thinking if we need this or not.