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kurzninja

Coal into Coke

29 posts in this topic

Not the kind you drink, but the stuff you get when you burn coal. This could be made from processing coal that you dig up (as opposed to charcoal that you make) by baking the coal in a charcoal pit type manner to produce coal coke. The benefits would be it would burn much hotter in your forge, allowing you to smelt more ores without the huge reduction in heat from adding ores to the crucible, or it could be made as a requirement to make some of the higher level ores because a hotter burning furnace is needed to melt them. Or you could make it a fuel requirement for the blast furnace in place of the charcoal. But mainly, I'd like a material that you could use to burn your forge hotter without having to sit and constantly pump your bellows, at the expense of needing to process it further beyond just digging it out of the ground.

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http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles_2014/Metallurgy.pdf

 

p. 6

 

https://ia600301.us.archive.org/33/items/blastfurnaceandt004219mbp/blastfurnaceandt004219mbp.pdf

 

pdf p. 67

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=t2NNAAAAYAAJ

 

p. 839 (pdf p. 858)

 

Coke burns longer than charcoal, so coke makes the superior forge fuel

 

Charcoal is more reactive than coke, so charcoal blast furnaces can be operated at lower temperatures

 

Humans switched to coke blast furnaces instead of working with charcoal predominately because producing charcoal required too much wood. Wood has a a much lower carbon content than coal does. It therefore takes a lot more wood to produce enough charcoal to make x amount of pig iron than it takes coal->coke. Coke was/is a much cheaper fuel than charcoal.

 

So basically if coke was to be added, it should basically be a slightly inferior fuel to charcoal in blast furnaces (using coke should require ~3 times the amount of limestone as charcoal), but burn longer in forges

 

There is another advantage to coke (other than cost reasons). It is a more dense fuel. This means larger coke blast furnaces could be made (charcoal would collapse under the extra weight from a large furnace), which produced more pig iron (due to economy of scale).

 

Charcoal Advantages (blast furnaces)

~1/3 as much limestone was required/ton pig iron when compared to coke furnaces [Coke has ~3 times as much ash as charcoal]

Only required ~65% as much as blast air when compared to coke furnaces (charcoal furnaces can be operated at lower temperatures)

 

Coke Advantages

Coke was much cheaper than Charcoal

You could make larger coke blast furnaces (economy of scale)

Coke burns longer than charcoal (more efficient forge fuel)

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There is already a placeholder item in the game for coke. The devs just haven't figured out how to fully implement it yet.

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After posting I searched the wiki for coke and saw the placeholder and knew that great minds think alike. ;)

I would make coke like a charcoal pit, where you place down blocks or slabs of coal, cover it up and then set it on fire, come back hours later and harvest the coke powder. I'd like to see other chemical derivatives from processing different materials that can be used as catalysts to speed up other things.

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As a general rule: When suggesting an item try to also suggest ways to make it useful and outline different ways it could be a valuable addition to progression based gameplay.

Coal coke is nice and all, but they aren't going to add it unless it's also really worth it.

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As a general rule: When suggesting an item try to also suggest ways to make it useful and outline different ways it could be a valuable addition to progression based gameplay.

Coal coke is nice and all, but they aren't going to add it unless it's also really worth it.

 

Did you even read my post? Coal coke is already in the game as a placeholder. It's just a matter of the devs figuring out how to make and use it.

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Yes I did. I don't see any conflict between them.

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Well, instead of a coke pit, a coke oven would be nicer. Speaking of fuels, I'd like  to see a difference between lignite coal and bituminous coal, as the latter burns much hotter than the other, we have a texture difference for both and well, we could use them and put different burning temps. Sorry for the random/demanding suggestion but it will be a cool idea  (Sorry if this has been talked about somewhere else)

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Yes I did. I don't see any conflict between them.

 

The conflict is that you said "they aren't going to add it unless it's also really worth it", when in fact the item is already added to the game. There is no need to consider how coke can be useful and and a valuable addition to progression based gameplay because it's already planned to be added. The decision of "is it worth it" was already made as "yes" because there is a placeholder.

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 I'll just move out on this one. The best part of your idea kurz (imo) is the hotter temp. If I could work a little harder and make a big batch of something that would melt steel without the bellow blues I'd be happy. I think it would be prudent to also tweak the other current fuels to have more variety on this aspect in general. 

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  Ancient civilizations knew that iron could be used for tools, but they had trouble getting the fire hot enough. The solution was bellows, only you couldn't make the iron liquid, just workable. (This mod has bellows and I think that's great!) That led to the iron age in 1500 B.C.E. But the steel age came a few centuries later. That's when a black smith came up with coal coke, a coal derivative. It burns much hotter and longer than normal coal or charcoal. To obtain it, you need a coke furnace. It could be made out of the already existing fire clay. Basically you put bituminous coal in the furnace with coke (a mineral) and light it. There are other specific steps, but it would make it more tedious than necessary. As a by product you also get creosote oil which wouldn't really have a use in this mod so I wouldn't bother with it.  Also, there is absolutely no way to smelt iron with charcoal. It burns too fast and doesn't get nearly hot enough, even with bellows. Coal coke should be something necessary to enter the iron age. The only things charcoal could possibly smelt alone are the ingredients for bronze. I hope you understand what I'm saying, I can ramble a bit. I know this has been suggested once, but I feel that he didn't get his point across. I'm not sure he really knew what coal coke actually was. I think he just wanted it because another mod had it. (I think) Anyways, I've rambled enough. Peace ;)

Edited by Testificate456
Duplicate topic, merged into older, existing one.
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I support this. I never did understand how burning wood made it go from able to cook foods and barely heat iron to workable managed to make it smeltable and liquefy it.

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Oops. I just realized that this has been suggested recently. I guess I'll leave it up for now.

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Actually it was good you posted this. You pointed out something coke does that charcoal doesn't. It burns longer than charcoal.

 

This was a point missing in the thread and an important quality for forge operation

 

I will have to correct the statement that charcoal burns hotter than coke. An equivalent mass of charcoal can (depending on the quality of the charcoal and coke) burn hotter and more efficiently than coke (important when talking about blast furnaces), but charcoal burns much more quickly than coke (making coke a superior fuel for forges)

 

The statement that charcoal can't be used to smelt iron is also incorrect

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Actually I just did some research and it turns out coal coke burns hotter. This is because it is very porous which allows more airflow. More airflow means a hotter fire. This is the same principle behind the bellows. It too adds air to the fire, making it hotter. Although you are right about charcoal being able to smelt iron. They have found crude iron artifacts before the invention of bellows or coal coke. It can happen just not as easily or efficiently.

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 Also, there is absolutely no way to smelt iron with charcoal. It burns too fast and doesn't get nearly hot enough, even with bellows.

You sure on this? Because I know some people who have done it.

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You sure on this? Because I know some people who have done it.

Actually I was talking about real life. Why do you think the Iron Age came later down the line in history? People knew about Iron. In fact, it's the most abundant metal in the Earth's crust. I may be a little wrong in saying that you can't smelt it with charcoal, but you certainly can't get it to a liquid state since Iron's melting point is 1500°(A necessary step for making steel.) For that you would need a different fuel: Coal coke. Charcoal just doesn't get hot enough. I may be wrong and I'm sorry if I am so please don't hesitate to tell me.

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Charcoal is more reactive than coke (when comparing reactions at the same temperature). Increasing the reaction temperature increases the reaction rate

 

Coke blast furnaces are operated at higher temperatures than charcoal ones. This is because the charcoal is more reactive than coke, so the temperature of the coke furnaces is higher to increase the rate of the reaction to compensate for that difference.

 

They raise the blast furnace temperature by adding more blast air to the coke furnace (adding more oxygen). This causes the coke to combust at higher rates

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Actually I was talking about real life.

So was I.

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Charcoal calorific value: ~4 MJ/Nm^3

Coke calorific value ~3 MJ/Nm^3

 

Not only does charcoal produce more heat than coke, it is also more reactive than coke (when comparing reactions at the same temperature). Increasing the reaction temperature increases the reaction rate

 

Coke blast furnaces are operated at higher temperatures than charcoal ones. This is because the charcoal is more reactive than coke, so the temperature of the coke furnaces is higher to increase the rate of the reaction to compensate for that difference.

 

They raise the blast furnace temperature by adding more blast air to the coke furnace (adding more oxygen). This causes the coke to combust at higher rates

Ok I admit I was wrong. I don't want to cause any argument. One thing we can agree on is that coal coke should be added. It is the superior fuel for the forge. Good day sir :)

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My understanding is that charcoal is less dense than coke coal and doesn't burn as long.

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There are two early processes known for making Coke Coal. The Hearth Process and The Beehive oven which you can find basic info on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coke_(fuel) However, both processes have extremely low yields (expect 33% yields or lower), can take up to a week to operate the Beehive (much longer for the Hearth), large batches make intense heat (reaching 3600 degrees Fahrenheit), and using lignite coal reduces the quality and yield (this can be ignored due to item setup). Here is a video slideshow on Beehive ovens. Only the first 6 minutes really matter.http://youtu.be/nknNiHzEIwg  Although I only speak in negatives, I do not mean to say that coke will not work, However, since it has already been considered and we are only looking for a way to implement it, we may need to invent our own way of making coke so that it fits our needs without making it unbelievable. For example, coal can be gasified to produce Coke (just as crudely as Charcloth is made) with high yields but at smaller loads. what I'd like to see is a coke making method involving lava (lol) For more info about coke and its early production, check this out http://www.coke-oven-managers.org/PDFs/History%20of%20Coke%20Making%20section%204.pdf

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http://books.google.com/books?id=VbcxAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA163

 

Beehive oven data

 

1.383 ton coal--> 1 ton coke (72.3%)

1.459 ton coal--> 1 ton coke (68.5%)

 

The process was done in 48-72 hours

 

It should be noted the yields of beehive coke are significantly better than charcoal yields (the maximum yield for modern charcoal making processes are ~35%)

 

You can gasify coal to metallurical grade coke, but the process was developed in the last decade, so its unlikely the devs would allow it to be implemented. Lets put it this way, a dev has argued that water-wheel powered bellows was too modern even though that is most certainly a pre-blast furnace invention

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http://books.google.com/books?id=VbcxAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA163

Beehive oven data

1.383 ton coal--> 1 ton coke (72.3%)

1.459 ton coal--> 1 ton coke (68.5%)

The process was done in 48-72 hours

It should be noted the yields of beehive coke are significantly better than charcoal yields (the maximum yield for modern charcoal making processes are ~35%)

You can gasify coal to metallurical grade coke, but the process was developed in the last decade, so its unlikely the devs would allow it to be implemented. Lets put it this way, a dev has argued that water-wheel powered bellows was too modern even though that is most certainly a pre-blast furnace invention

One thing to understand when I give such yield statistics is that I'm referring to:

[*]Coal loading weight from 20 to 40 tons,

[*]The efficiencies at an age when the understanding of the coking process was lesser to ours.

[*]The devs rough estimate of the time period we are working in (About the 1500s give or take 150 or so years), compared to historical yields.

[*]The contents of coal was harder to determine back then and were prone to contain poor or volatile matter.

This also kinda addresses why I stated that it took about week to prepare (Charcoal also takes about a week to prepare, however that is ignored in game for balancing reasons.) Also, today we can make coke in greater loads weights and still manage a 75% efficiency, however, this was harder for our predecessors to manage this so they could only manage this with smaller loads.

Gasifying coal was referring to the Charring method and not the method intended to make Town Gas. What I mean is when fuel is placed into a container with a few holes and is heated externally until charring is complete. This would use smaller loads of coal but would have higher yields, like I said (this wouldn't be my first choice, but I was just bring out more options). This link shows the progress of gasifying research specifically for the production of gas http://www.netl.doe.gov/research/coal/energy-systems/gasification/gasifipedia/history-gasification

Your statistics are more reasonable for players to be operating at (both in weight and yields), therefore, they are the best for use.

Personally, I believe Coke will be a great tool for whenever the Devs decide to implement steam (or even just plumbing) to the game. Charcoal is great for making small scale things like tools and weapons, with it reaching the fringes of its abilities with armor and constructions. However, coke would make the creation of the infrastructure behind steam and other complex constructions more reasonable.

Edit: Water powered bellows would also spoil the player of a manual task (lol)

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