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mattie_craft

"Believable" Magic (Sort of a fusion of Ars Magica 2 and Thaumcraft 4 with a TFC overhaul)

20 posts in this topic

Ok so maybe making magic believable is a little difficult but if we look at my personal 2 favourite magic mods (ars magica 2 and thaumcraft 4) we see that they are sort of believable in a weird way. I was thinking that maybe parts from both could be recreated in TFC but changed to fit the style (by recreated I don't mean copying the code I mean creating similar systems/mechanics). I know that this doesn't seem to fit the TFC theme at its present state of development, with the huge emphasis on survival and whatnot, but I think it could work. For example adding skills (such as Spellcraft, Alchemy and Artifice) which can be improved and levelled up. So with spellcraft at lv0 (meaning your magic/arcane potential is still locked) you can't do any magic, once you perform a ritual (this could be anything that's remotely believable) you advance to spellcraft lv1 which means you can create spells but need a wand to cast them. Lv2 you can add spells to a book/tome and cast them from that. Lv3 spellbooks which can store multiple spells and can be used to cast the selected spell. Lv 4 can hand cast spells (eg summoning a fireball spell into the players hand instead of from a wand) that are in your spellbook, this means your spellbook can be in the back of your inventory and can still be used without putting it on a hotbar slot. I could go into detail about the other systems but the post will just get to long (the others are too complicated to explain/break them down into individual levels). Please consider this idea I think it could really be great.

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hate to tell you, but the emphasis on survival isn't just the "current state of development," it's one of the central design principles that will always guide the entire mod's development.

 

I certainly think one could approach a magic system in a sortof tfc way, and make an interesting add-on, but I would be rather surprised if any sort of magic were ever added to the mod itself. To my mind, a "tfc" magic system would not be like you're describing, though, but would probably be a bit more alchemical in nature, with sources of magic added to world generation - magical creatures, both passive and hostile, and perhaps magical plants - with "spells" requiring materials and resources in rituals. It would be, in a word, work, like everything else in tfc, and not in the usual tech mod (And most major magic mods /are/ tech mods, at heart, just with a magic theme) "work to aquire, then never work again" sense, but in a constant "work hard to step up a tier, so you can keep working hard but accomplish a bit more" way that everything else in tfc works. For magic to be added and not upset the balance, there'd have to be as many magical /threats/ to your survival for your own development of magic to counter, otherwise it's just, at some level or other, a kind of "god mode." For example, magical mobs, unlike their non-magicla cousins, might become MORE abundant and common in areas where there is heavy magic use, drawn to the arcane energies or whatever.

 

But again, while it could make an interesting add-on, don't really see (and personally wouldn't want) it being something in tfc itself.

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In my personal opinion, if we have magic in TFC, in any way it should be more of a 'support' than anything else, and try to be  as less magic as it can(yea, that bit sounds weird)

I don't think magical mobs or plants or anything that really says 'magic' would fit in TFC, nor would spells or rituals. 'active' magic like slinging fireballs and shooting lighting would defiantly not fit in.

 

When I think of magic in TFC, I think of these things:

Brewing, using herbs and mushrooms and bits and pieces off animals and mobs, like spider eyes and rotten flesh, random bits of 'ore dust' (you know.... dyes).

It would make potions that you can drink, salves to apply to bandages/arrows or directly to wounds, powders that can be thrown/tossed/whatever (possibly in packages), etc

Somewhat believable, but if you get right down to it, it's magic

 

Charms. Crafted bits of bones and metal and jewels and string that is worn/held to give effects, or hung on walls to give effects in a small area.

Would have a much weaker effect than brewing, and just simple effects like a minor regeneration boost, a minor speed buff, etc, but lasts until the charm breaks

Not very believable, but hey, people made charms, and still make em, just pretend that the charms work... or something.

 

Enchanted tools, weapon, and armor.

Same pretty much as vanilla enchantments, but only up to level 1 or 2, not those crazy sharpness 5 or protection 4 things

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I can see your point, I just don't think you could nerf magic of any sort enough that it wouldn't require a counterbalancing increased threat, which would mean magical elements in the world. It could, perhaps, be something incredibly rare; in a new world, there is nothing. You won't be finding magic plants or unicorns around spawn. It's not until, after major exploration or dumb luck, find some ultra-rare thing or things that let you "open a door" - possibly literally - allowing you to learn magic, but at the cost of unleashing magic in general onto the world.

 

Of course, I don't think either version is really appropriate except as an add-on, as I said before.

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I love Thaumcraft, and I'd love for someone to make a compatibility mod for it, but as Gopher said, this should be a mod, not something integrated into TFC.  I'd happily use that mod though.

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For me the only believable magic in the bunny going out of the hat.

 

However I believe in the spiritual, and maybe you could summon ghosts or spirits, or banish them if they haunt you or something.

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We had similar threads in the past. I wouldn't mind subtle supernatural effects stepping into realm of magic but I am not fond of things like Thaumcraft. Don't take me wrong, it's a good mod on it's own, but it's still lacking the subtleness I'd hope for. It's still very heroic fantasy, with miracles and stuff all around. I'd rather hope for some slavic pagan stuff effects of cannot be easily minmaxed or quantified or at the very least aren't obviously and immediately visible.

I already brought it before but, for example, I like how magic was handled in Unreal World roguelike, where there's simply a bunch of somewhat religious rituals devoted to the gods/spirits and dealing with aspects of regular, daily life of largely primitive society.

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The closes thing to magic that I feel could fit in base TFC is religious icons, and the psychological effects they have on people.

Oh, and drugs. Norse berserkers were believed to either take drugs... or just get really pissed off. Either way, has to be frightening to stab someone and have them grin.

 

Problem is, for us, this isn't magic. We understand the concepts behind it now. Throughout history though, they didn't really know what was causing an effect, just that there was an effect.

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Magic? Spells? why not Nanobots?

 

You cast spells(or command internally) using numpad numbers(or mouse movement if possible). For example, calling 2(water)7(self,defensive)4(heal)9(ninth power level) will heal yourself over a period of time. Casting 3(water-earth)3(other,offensive)6(dirtblade)8(front direction)5(fifth power level) will take a block of dirt/clay and spread it in front of you with sonic speed. The power level depends whether you have upgraded it or not. Certain moves are also not available until you are entitled to use it and have enough energy to move the necessary elements. The bots will only give you a description of the move(this move will heal you. its element is water-air), it does not tell you the numbers. The number(if it is a wheel, not selection like power level) will spin according to world seed.

 

Later. School.

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The closes thing to magic that I feel could fit in base TFC is religious icons, and the psychological effects they have on people.

Oh, and drugs. Norse berserkers were believed to either take drugs... or just get really pissed off. Either way, has to be frightening to stab someone and have them grin.

 

Problem is, for us, this isn't magic. We understand the concepts behind it now. Throughout history though, they didn't really know what was causing an effect, just that there was an effect.

Why is that a problem?

I think it's rather a good thing. We could have stuff like potions, drugs, incense, charms, statues, whatever, and call it magic.... or the effects of whatever the drugs/potions/whatever do.

I think it'll be believable enough for TFC

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I think we could find a niche in TFC for all this magical things. as long as is created as an addon.

I just imagine using totems that would protect my town bringing lightning to trespassers.

Or a totem that would bring rain to my crops.

An amulet that would give me strength or speed.

All that is cool. As long as is optional and not integrated into TFC. 

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What was at one point considered magic is now possible with technology. The point where these definitions blurr is that anything extraordinary in effect with no knowledge of the fundementals of how it happens can technically be called magic. So following this train of thought, basic alchemy; for both offense and defensive purposes, while technically science, can be considered magic.So a system of magic based around alchemy for logical outcomes seems to fit right in with TFC's span of gameplay. 

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indeed, since TFC game scope doesn't actually fit to make all the quantum chemistry theories that is the basis for real life chem, but things based on a very simple system like alchemy would be believeable enough in TFC to work. Imagine yourselves without the knowledge of quantum orbitals and chemical properties and trying unequipped to comprehend the phenomenons driven by them, that's how people started alchemy back in the days, so I say that if it's all reformed into an alchemy preposition with at least the preservation of mass and energy being kept as the hidden mechanism behind all of this, I'm all for it.

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What was at one point considered magic is now possible with technology. The point where these definitions blurr is that anything extraordinary in effect with no knowledge of the fundementals of how it happens can technically be called magic. So following this train of thought, basic alchemy; for both offense and defensive purposes, while technically science, can be considered magic.

So a system of magic based around alchemy for logical outcomes seems to fit right in with TFC's span of gameplay. 

hey my idea didja read it

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no, no, No, NO, NO.We've been over this a milliondy-billion times - magic, if it's ever even added at all, is on the absolute backmost of all possible burners. There are already like 7-10 threads on this, and the largest (mine) reached something like 12 pages. It's been discussed to death, resurrected, then taken several more fatal shots to the head afterward. Leave. Magic. Alone.

 

 

Besides, even if it WAS up for discussion, emulating AM/TC is right out; it would be more like Visitor's post - old paegan rites that did not very much noticable, and had pseudorandom elements in them. Like... I can see TFC allowing to you build some kind of blockhenge, sacrifice a livestock animal on it, and the drops and xp get deleted right away (which would be your ONLY cue that the ritual even worked) - then for the next calendar year growth ticks for plants happen between 5-15% more often in a circular X-chunk area around the site.

 

I deeply and sincerely doubt there will EVER be anything so flashy as spells.

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no, no, No, NO, NO.We've been over this a milliondy-billion times - magic, if it's ever even added at all, is on the absolute backmost of all possible burners. There are already like 7-10 threads on this, and the largest (mine) reached something like 12 pages. It's been discussed to death, resurrected, then taken several more fatal shots to the head afterward. Leave. Magic. Alone.Besides, even if it WAS up for discussion, emulating AM/TC is right out; it would be more like Visitor's post - old paegan rites that did not very much noticable, and had pseudorandom elements in them. Like... I can see TFC allowing to you build some kind of blockhenge, sacrifice a livestock animal on it, and the drops and xp get deleted right away (which would be your ONLY cue that the ritual even worked) - then for the next calendar year growth ticks for plants happen between 5-15% more often in a circular X-chunk area around the site.I deeply and sincerely doubt there will EVER be anything so flashy as spells.

I agree that adding this to the core mod would seem out of place; BUT as an actual practicing pagan myself, a way to hold ritual and perform rites would be very cool! Besides, some ancient rites had real scientific application. For example, blood or sacrificial rites did really work because when the shaman spread the blood onto the soil he was inadvertently adding massive amounts of nitrogen to the soil :) I would love to code this as a separate mod that will tie into TFC but would also act as a stand alone mod as well. Now if I could just figure out how to get forge setup to eclipse on my iMac..... Grrr.
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It isn't hard. It is the same instructions as Windows, you just do "bash gradlew decompworkspace" and "bash gradlew XXXX" where XXXX is either eclipse or idea depending on the program you use. 

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If you take a look in the Cthulhu myth (especially the roleplaying game) there is a form of magic that is very subtle, comes with horrible consequences, and would fit TFC in many ways as an endgame form of entertainment. The question however is why to implement such a complex system that would take month to implement for sure, just to make hand full of users happy and annoy the rest?

I agree that if any form of magic is added, a mod would be a better idea.

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If you take a look in the Cthulhu myth (especially the roleplaying game) there is a form of magic that is very subtle, comes with horrible consequences, and would fit TFC in many ways as an endgame form of entertainment. The question however is why to implement such a complex system that would take month to implement for sure, just to make hand full of users happy and annoy the rest?I agree that if any form of magic is added, a mod would be a better idea.

Cthulhu magic would definitely be a nice fit thematically is some ways but I think that putting a fully articulated pagan religious belief system into a mod would be a relaxing, empowering and refreshing change from those things which distort ancient practices.Don't get me wrong, I am all for calling to the great old ones but it would be a theme shift from historical to dark horror occultism. And that would be fine for entertainment purposes as you said. :)
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These are ideas best accomplished with addons/secondary mods. I personally have no issue with, but no interest either in occultism or paganism. However I do know people who would no only not like, but deeply offended by inclusion of either. In general it is best to keep real life religious or political themes out of things meant to appeal to all.

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