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TomatoThief

New Torches and Light

20 posts in this topic

Disclaimer: I know I'm jumping the gun here, since 79 hasn't even been released.

 

The new torches burn out after 48 in-game hours. I suggest that torches gradually decay (in light level) at a rate determined by the level of coding complexity. The light could drop by 1 unit every 4 hours (or 2:8, 3:12, 4:16...), such that after 48 hours the torch is at light level 2. I also suggest that the torch remain at light level 2 permanently, as a sort of glowing ember. At the very least, there should be some visual indication that a torch is nearing the end of its useful life, such as a single reduction and/or visual change at the 44th hour.

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This is good suggestion. Considering monsters ain't gonna disappear and I'm usually making a calculated grid to achieve more placement efficiency, would be nice to have both indication of where was the torch placed and how long it's left until it'll need a replacement.

I'm not really sure about complete gradual reduction, since torch is actually useless once its light is reached a level of 6, and with gradual reduction you then might as well place one on each and every block around, since at some point there always will be a spot with 6 or less in the grid. That latter thing would make the whole torchfield thing even more obnoxious, and as I understand from Bioxx's SotM, that is exactly what he wanted to avoid.

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I like how it is originally announced by dunk and bioxx.

but for the topic, maybe only a one drop light level reduction at 90% of its light lifetime. Just to inform it's going to light off soon...

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It should be noted that torches burning out were coded in a specific way to help reduce lag. Instead of being constantly ticking tile entities, which likely would be required in order to have a gradual decrease in light levels, they are simply a randomly-ticking block like grass. To help explain this a little bit better; when a torch is placed it stores a single value of the timestamp of when it was placed. Every time that the torch receives a random tick, it checks if 48 hours has passed since the original timestamp. If it has, the torch goes out. This way it isn't an exact timer counting down that makes the torch update. 48 hours have to pass, and then the block has to receive one of the random ticks that generate over random blocks in the world. Another comparison would be to saplings; they have to be planted for a certain period of time, after which point it's entirely up to a random tick to make it grow.

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Not sure how it really is going to work for the player.

Its like the food and decaying.

I use to be able to do a quick play on a coffee or lunch break, but since the new build I need 10 minutes just to get ready for playing.

So no more 15 minutes playing.

For the torches I think it will also make it impossible to live your character in a mine or cave.

They keep saying that the mod is balanced for multiplayer, That means a server so the  time does not stop.

It's like, every time you log off you need to make sure you are in a safe place, otherwise when you log back you will be in a dark cave hundreds of blocks away from your base in complete darkness with no way of knowing witch way to go.

Every time you go back to the server your base is going to be dark, since many days will have passed.

One of the way many players mark the way when cave exploring is by putting torches on the right wall when going so to go back is just a question of fallowing the torches having them on the left.

Not saying I am against the idea, I am just curious to know what kind of solutions the players will find.

Fear of darkness is hard coded in the human brain.

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Not sure how it really is going to work for the player.

Its like the food and decaying.

I use to be able to do a quick play on a coffee or lunch break, but since the new build I need 10 minutes just to get ready for playing.

So no more 15 minutes playing.

For the torches I think it will also make it impossible to live your character in a mine or cave.

They keep saying that the mod is balanced for multiplayer, That means a server so the  time does not stop.

It's like, every time you log off you need to make sure you are in a safe place, otherwise when you log back you will be in a dark cave hundreds of blocks away from your base in complete darkness with no way of knowing witch way to go.

Every time you go back to the server your base is going to be dark, since many days will have passed.

One of the way many players mark the way when cave exploring is by putting torches on the right wall when going so to go back is just a question of fallowing the torches having them on the left.

Not saying I am against the idea, I am just curious to know what kind of solutions the players will find.

Fear of darkness is hard coded in the human brain.

 

One key thing you're missing here is that both food decay, and the rate at which torches burn out is configurable because we realize that they will primarily be used on a server. Food decay can either be turned off entirely, or the Food Decay Protection System can be tweaked with, as well as the year length to counteract the fact that the server is always on. 79 also added a very very very basic server sleeping functionality for when no players online.

 

Very shortly after Bioxx added torches burning out, I added a config option to set it to any amount of hours you want it to burn for, or simply set it to 0 to let them burn forever.

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thanks for the answer kitty. We can always count on you to explain how things work, I really appreciate.

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It should be noted that torches burning out were coded in a specific way to help reduce lag. Instead of being constantly ticking tile entities, which likely would be required in order to have a gradual decrease in light levels, they are simply a randomly-ticking block like grass. To help explain this a little bit better; when a torch is placed it stores a single value of the timestamp of when it was placed. Every time that the torch receives a random tick, it checks if 48 hours has passed since the original timestamp. If it has, the torch goes out. This way it isn't an exact timer counting down that makes the torch update. 48 hours have to pass, and then the block has to receive one of the random ticks that generate over random blocks in the world. Another comparison would be to saplings; they have to be planted for a certain period of time, after which point it's entirely up to a random tick to make it grow.

 

Then, couldn't you make it something like the torch, after a X amount of time, if it gets a random tick-thingy it loses half its light levels, then after another X amount of time, when it gets a random tick-thingy, it burns out?

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Then, couldn't you make it something like the torch, after a X amount of time, if it gets a random tick-thingy it loses half its light levels, then after another X amount of time, when it gets a random tick-thingy, it burns out?

 

Technically yes, that is possible to code. However, you wouldn't be able to use a "half-lit" torch as any sort of indicator on whether its about to actually burn out soon or not, because its so heavily based on the random tick. So you could have 1 half-lit torch that stays that way for a few in-game days just by luck, and another that goes out almost instantly because it was ticked faster. From my understanding the whole basis of adding in the "half-lit" was so you could tell how long the torch had to live.

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Also a half lit torch would have a light level of 7, which would be dark enough to spawn mobs

 

So for all intents and purposes (other than PvP related scouting) they would be burned out

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I'm actually not quite sure what is tried to achieve here, honestly. It's not like players want to place many torches around their homes - it's vanilla mechanics that beat them into doing so.

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Question: If mobs are being pushed under sea level, and torches will go off by it self. Will I find the baseboard I my House in the dark and full of monsters? Will this feature make it impossible to have any construction under sea level?

Would it then be possible to have monster spawning checking for man made blocks? So monsters would not spawn unless in smooth stone or dirt and grass?

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Mines will be cool though hehe, you second visit will give an impression of an abandoned mines.

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Question Kitty: is there implementation in place to keep people from just breaking and replacing older torches before they go out? What happens when you break a torch that was placed before? Does it go back in the stack or is it now it's own separate entity in your inventory and still counting down?

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Question Kitty: is there implementation in place to keep people from just breaking and replacing older torches before they go out? What happens when you break a torch that was placed before? Does it go back in the stack or is it now it's own separate entity in your inventory and still counting down?

You get the whole torch back after braking it. Basically that means, that if you have one torch left and are deep underground in darkness, it would still be possible to get up: place torch to see where to go, brake, go on, place, brake, etc. (confirmed by Bioxx)Why would you want to prevent people from breaking and placing again? I think nobody would plant a torch forest and replace the whole thing every 48 TFC hours :P
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Something you guys keep forgetting is that light level isn't the only thing controlling mob spawning in TFC. As long as you hang out in one area for a generally decent amount of time, the spawn protection is going to stop all mobs from spawning in that chunk anyways, regardless of if it lit up or not.

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Yeah but when half the time spent in your base is spent blundering around in the dark trying to make some torches because they've all gone out for the 400th time it's going to suck all the fun out of living.

Obviously this decision wasn't made on a whim but for me the constant hunger management was enough to keep plenty busy on maintenance. I think this is starting to cross the line into the boredom zone where the game becomes about maintaining things like health and home instead of creative expression. Granted there should be a balance between the two, but personally this tips the scales in the wrong direction.

That being said I would take it all back if brass lanterns were added as a permanent (and maybe adjustable) light source. Actually, if that happened I would welcome burnt out torches with open arms, knowing there was a progression based alternative for my cabin and cellar to keep them cozy and lit when I come back from a risky caving adventure. Srsly tho... Please add adjustable brass lanterns.

Edit: before I'm misunderstood I feel I should elaborate... I'm aware that lanterns are a sort of planned feature, my main concern is that adding a time limit to torches REQUIRES the simultaneous addition of a permanent light source such as the lantern. Otherwise we end up with a repeat of what happened when food decay was added but without a decent variety of ways to preserve it. Think of all the complaint threads that were made about food decay... We are looking at a repeat of this unless the new torch code is kept out of 79 until lanterns are developed and the two can be implemented together.

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I agree with you completely about needing a more expensive but permanent alternative to torches, but to be fair, people will complain about torches that go out, period. When a feature makes anything even marginally harder, or even just sounds like it would make things marginally harder even if it actually doesn't at all, people who don't want more challenge will complain. When a feature makes things easier, or just sound easier, people who like the challenge will complain.

 

In general, when anything changes in any way, people will complain. XD

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You're right about people complaining no matter what, but when they do complain, don't we want a logical answer to give them?

If torches burn out without the addition of lanterns here is what will happen:

1) the devs will have added something entirely because it's realistic - a massive mistake that they reiterate countless times to people making realism-based suggestions.

2) the following months will be full of countless threads complaining about the lack of a permanent light source that kitty will have to police and merge and manage.

3) people who don't know it's a planned feature will constantly suggest adding lanterns and the community and kitty will have to reply to these people again and again explaining that they should be patient and pay attention to the devs newsletters.

4) this clogs up the forums with useless lighting complaints, stifling the useful and productive conversations, just like it did when food decay was added without a fleshed out preservation system to go along with it.

To restate the big issue, it's better to wait and release a complete system than to huridly push out half the mechanic and have months of confusion based on an incomplete and broken aspect of game play.

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There are good reasons to do it the way the devs do it.

 

1.) They probably fix more bugs this way as they discover more ways people try to cheat the system

 

2.) They find out the extent the problem they have caused, so they can better design a solution

 

The devs aren't omnipotent beings. They don't know the full implications of what they implement until after they implement it. They also can't evaluate the success of solutions if they implement the solution the same time as the problem

 

This isn't a professional game company. They don't have sales to lose if they upset people.

 

By downloading the mod, you are basically becoming a beta tester to test the game for them. If you don't want to test this system for them you can disable the burnout in the config (or not play the mod anymore)

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