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Bioxx

Torch Discussion

184 posts in this topic

new to the forum. played MC for a couple of years now, tfc for over a year now. love the mod!!! but, that said, the whole purpose of the forums is to get player feedback on the mod for the purpose of developing the mod in a way that the actual players of the mod find interesting enough to continue playing the mod. as i read the forum conversations on the torch feature implemented in b79, it seems that the players are not enjoying the TEDIUM that this has forced upon the style of play that they have developed and enjoy enough to keep them (and me) coming back build after build for more of this OUTSTANDING mod. it also seems that the devs responses are to offer workarounds to the players dissatisfaction at this turn of events. recommending that players change the config files, seems to indicate a problem exists with the default config settings in the eyes of the people who are playing this game. i personally feel that  the torch situation, the cave in frequency, the only partially effective mining support situation has made the game almost unplayable for the playstyle i have developed over time spent with a game i LOVE. these changes have not made the game more interesting merely so tedious that i dont find myself trying to come up with excuses to leave work to come home and play as i have with past builds, but instead find myself dreading coming home and playing a game that now feels broke. i undestand the devs trying to implement changes to keep the game interesting, but it seems the torches for sure are not being enjoyed by he community at large. disappointing when the devs defend a poor decision rather than take constructive feedback from the game community into consideration. kind of defeats the whole purpose of the forum to me. thats my piece, hope to see some kind of change to make playing enjoyable again. sorry for any spelling errors, type with two fingers (poorly at that) but felt strongly enough to try typing all this

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Resource efficient, not time efficient.

 

If you hold that stack of 64 sticks, you'll make 64 torches fairly quickly.

 

If you put that stack of 64 sticks in the firepit, you'll get 128 torches.

 

You make a very good point. Yet, i feel the need to offer a response. Torches go out over time, so who still needs stacks and stacks of them? Acquiring enough sticks is not a problem. Therefore, the quick lighting of sticks into torches feels cheaty :D Why not put a time delay on the lighting of each torch? More ahem "realistic". Also then there is still some reason to use the forge later on.

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You make a very good point. Yet, i feel the need to offer a response. Torches go out over time, so who still needs stacks and stacks of them? Acquiring enough sticks is not a problem. Therefore, the quick lighting of sticks into torches feels cheaty :D Why not put a time delay on the lighting of each torch? More ahem "realistic". Also then there is still some reason to use the forge later on.

 

I barely make any torches now, feels like there's no point. And with cave exploration still feeling as unrewarding as ever, torches are mostly decoration now. 

 

My starting hovel doesn't really need them anyway because of spawn protection.

Unfortunately, I can't make anything much larger than the peasant hovel anymore because of the reliance on spawn protection, so that's kind of unfortunate.

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I am aware that lanterns will be added eventually. But their lack when coupled with the torch change is one of the major issues I've seen pop up earlier in the thread (and one I agree with). You've removed a mechanic without offering an acceptable option. One of the reasons we use torches is because they're relatively cheap and light things up decently well. I accept that Bioxx doesn't like torch forests both aesthetically and as a method of spawn control, and that's fine; I don't either.Another reason torches are used quite often is that they do not set things on fire, which is why Lava lighting isn't really an option... one of the most common (and aesthetically pleasing) building materials is flammable, and Minecraft fire spread is one of those esoteric concepts that most people never quite grasp, and even those that know the rules screw up with them sometimes.The other "option" brought up in this thread is Jack-o-Lanterns. And having to hide them is a pain in vanilla, and a lot of those techniques don't work in TFC. Pistons aren't craftable; glass defeats the point of hiding the light; leaves are no longer able to be shorn/sheared. Which leaves you with things like putting them under chests (which you can still see that vibrant orange around the edges of); carpets, which are tricky to use in a lot of builds in vanilla, and even more-so in TFC; using ledges and trim to hide the light (which doesn't work for many builds); using the chisel, which is amazingly distracting for many people (I can't stand 7/8ths blocks in the middle of my wall/ceilings. It's why I hate mod cables that aren't facade or FMP compatible).Especially because we're going to have to live with this change for months what with the 1.8 overhaul and the relative downsizing of the core modded MC API/Library teams.-----As for the torches, you can still prevent more than 2 torches from being produced at once... just revert the time change and let us slap a stack in there, then it reduces the TEDIUM of clicking back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and ... you get the idea. It won't speed up the process any, it won't be "stick stack of torches in firepit, walk away for 1 minute, come back to stack of torches". It'll just remove the need to click... and click... and click... and click in two or three different places. This isn't Cookie Clicker :-) I for one wouldn't mind having to manually accept the outputs (that's something every other TFC machine/process does), I do mind having to babysit BOTH the input and output... this is one of the few places in the mod where that happens, and it is both slightly jarring and horrifically tedious/annoying.-----Cerus brings up a good point, and one of the OTHER reasons I think the "player placed blocks" idea is a good step in the right direction. If you rely entirely upon spawn protection, at best you can manage eight 5 chunk x 5 chunk squares of protection, and that involves you moving around a lot (more tedium! I don't come to play Minecraft for chores, I get enough of those in my real life). Now 200 chunks sounds like a lot, but that involves you being very VERY careful with how you do things and making sure that you stay about equal amounts of time in every one of those 8 chunks, no two of which can be closer than 4 chunks apart and... wow this is beginning to sound like a physics problem or something. So let's be generous and assume you can get... oh... 25% of that. 50 chunks. That STILL sounds like a lot, but I know that I'm going to spend VAST stretches of my in-base time in my metalworking area, and probably my "house"... which if I don't build in a tower fashion means I have to have my entire compound within a 10x5 chunk area and fully fenced in... which is rather counter to the way TFC seems to encourage outposts and spread out bases. Also I'm tired of building cramped bases where I cram everything into a set space. Let me build outposts and secure them against monster spawns somehow OTHER than my presence... maybe you could give another use to the gems and make a Protection Emitter that you feed something (more gems maybe? Oil? Lava?) and it acts like a player (or maybe shorter radius) so we can maybe feed into them with a barrel (or something)...Basically I like the idea of spawn protection, I just don't think it's enough, and even if it is, the method is a bit tedious to maintain because it's yet ANOTHER thing that must be done personally by the player with regularity.

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You can use the chisel to hide jack-o-lanterns without doing the 7/8ths visible block thing. For one, you can slab down the side that isn't visible since you're going to be in there placing the pumpkin anyways, or you can just hit the block once with the chisel in detail mode without actually removing any of the itty bitty bits, and that makes the block transparent as well.

 

Thatch is also an option because it doesn't block light, but I can see how that is a rare case block that actually fits in with the style of most builds.

 

The tedium is the trade-off for getting two per stick. Like stated before, if you don't care if you get 2 per stick because you have an excess of sticks or whatever, just hold a stack of sticks in your hand, and spam right click on an already placed torch. It will turn all of those sticks into torches without any sort of use of a fire pit.

 

As for the spawn protection, keep in mind that you get 8 hours of protection for every 1 hour spent in the chunk, and that you can build up quite a large backlog of protection for a chunk. At a perfect tick-rate of 20tps, it only takes 2.5 real life minutes to gather an in-game day's (20 RL minutes) worth of protection. I've built a fair amount of what seem like ridiculously large houses in TFC, and yet all of them have been smaller than a 5x5 chunk (80x80 block) area. By creating a central point in the building, where I know I will be spending a fair amount of time in (forge, pottery room, kitchen, etc), it is fairly easy to generate enough backlog of protection for the entire house that it doesn't matter if I wander over to one of the edges, because I'm not going to be over there long enough to deplete much of the backlog on the other end, and as soon as I go back towards middle where I'm spending most of my time anyways, the little bit of backlog that I did use up is replenished at 8x the speed I drained it. With the current default backlog cap, I would have to spend 10 in-game days (or 3 hrs 20 minutes) in my base to hit the cap. At that point, I am free to leave my base and wander about exploring for as long as 80 in-game days (or 26 hrs 40 minutes) before the protection in my base gets back down to where mobs can spawn again. If I'm sharing my home with another player, I can stay out even longer because they are keeping the protection from depleting while they are still back at the house. One of the few times that I can see this ever really being an issue is for players who 1. build far enough away so no other players are protecting any part of their house, 2. play on servers that have players online 24/7 so the sleep function is never used, 3. play for relatively short periods of time (less than an hour) and 4. only log on once a day to play for that hour.

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House. Singular.Oh and you can't build a house/compound more than 65 blocks interior without using f3 and be assured that the middle will actually extend spawn protection to the edges. I could point out why that is, but it's mostly pedantry anyway.I don't like building like that anymore. I've been forced to by neccesity and being nice to server resources so I have to keep as few chunks loaded as possible, I've built entire bases (well the modded bits of it anyway) inside of a single chunk to avoid stupid chunk loading bugs. It's boring, I'm tired of cramped and compact.In TFC I build more realistically, I don't put my loud, noxious and dirty forge/foundry near my nice pristine house. I don't put my loud, stinky, loud, noxious, loud, and annoying (did I mention loud?) animal barn/stalls/pasture/stables next to either of them. I keep my farmland near water for irrigation (mostly out of neccesity there, if I had red steel from the start, I would terraform the landscape a bit and make a natural spring and irrigate that way). I don't build a house, I build a COMPLEX. That complex is not centered around my house, that complex gets buildings placed where they make sense and often where I don't have to do massive amounts of terraforming. Most of the time that means that my base sprawls over 10s of chunks and there are precisely 0 guarantees that any of that will stay spawn protected all of, most of, or even much more than barely some of the time. I don't mind the mobs being in the surrounding wilderness, and even intruding on my paths. But I secure the individual base components the only way I can: Light. What this change does is remove that as an option in anything but single player, unless I build out of non-flammable material and/or use extra thick walls or dig out a sub-basement while building so I can hide jack o lanterns I have had to roam thousands of blocks to find the pumpkins for. Or I get to log on every hour and re-light my outposts. Or I hope to god that I have less than 8 outposts... or there are a lot of them within 2-ish chunks of one another... or that I log on more than once a day for a length of time not less than 1/8th the time I will be gone for... Another thing this forces me to do is use the immersion breaking F3 screen to actually figure out where in the heck my chunk boundaries are.The problem with using your play style as an example, Kitty is that not everyone plays like you do and you're making the game harder for those people without giving them a way to mitigate or nullify that change (other than the config setting, which as I've already pointed out: You can't rely on config settings to fix a problem. Defaults are defaults for a reason, and they're what are going to be used 95+% of the time.). You've also implied heavily many times that your style of play is more valid than their style of play.I can point to plenty of people that log on and don't build in spawn (which TFC's resource distribution discourages ANYWAY), have day jobs, have other social commitments, and otherwise don't log on once a day for 3 and a half hours, every day. Plenty of servers have night owls and different time zones so that the server is on practically 24/7. Not everyone wants to impinge on others builds so they go a few hundred blocks away until they find a place they like so as not to wreck the view of anyone else with their stuff. They still play with other people, they still talk to others, they're not "playing single player" by any stretch, but while they're on they'll be unintentionally screwing everyone else over. I know that my personal servers have had a max of 6 people at any one time, and our bases were hundreds of blocks apart because Person A felt like building in a desert, while person B wanted extreme hills, persons C and D built a base together in the nether, and such. We did not build a single gated community because that tends to require a unified building style or a committee, or a unified builder, or some other nonsense that just makes more work for everyone else. We were all online at pretty much the same times, and we STILL would have ended up logging on to bases dark, dank, and full of walking corpses/spiders the size of horses/gangly teleporting thieves that hit like mountains/big walking green phallic exploding bush creatures, and the like. I know that I have a weekly D&D game that would mean if my server was up and my other friends were playing at that time? I would log on Monday, EVERY WEEK to a base full to the brim with mobs. Why would I want that?Yes, I'm the server admin, and I could turn off that setting in the config. But then I would have to poll all the players and get a supermajority to agree, because that's how decisions are made on my servers. We run default, and unless there's a stability issue (which as the only admin and the resident tech geek, I just fix and let everyone know that I fixed it and what caused the issue), any deviation runs past the whole crew and takes a week. Except minor version updates; SOP there is to just roll those out.----I'm happy you have realized that there are problems with the implementation as it currently stands. What I'm asking for is an honest look at the numerous suggestions that have been brought forth both from the aesthetic and mechanic camps on why we, in particular, do not like this change; instead of the off-hand dismissals and deflections those suggestions and criticisms had been receiving.Also I wish Bioxx would realize that putting the userbase on hold with an experimental balance change in a release version (specifically stated to "see through LPs and other sources how players actually adapt to the changes") isn't the best way to endear yourself with your users. Most people don't like being unwitting beta testers.

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Also I wish Bioxx would realize that putting the userbase on hold with an experimental balance change in a release version (specifically stated to "see through LPs and other sources how players actually adapt to the changes") isn't the best way to endear yourself with your users. Most people don't like being unwitting beta testers.

 

See that 0 at the start of the version number? See how it's not a 1? TFC is in beta. Even our download page explicitly says: TFC Beta 0.79.6.245 For MC v1.7.10 If you play it, you are by definition a beta tester.

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Um, can't we make it so mobs don't spawn on 'manufactured' blocks such as cobble, planks, bricks, etc? I don't think people use dirt/raw stone/gravel a lot for flooring, so if mobs can't spawn on player-made blocks, that should prevent houses from being filled with mobs when you come back even if it's dark, right?

 

I know lots of roads are gravel, but that shouldn't make too much trouble since well, if mobs spawning on the road wanders into your house.... get a door. Seriously.

 

And if you want to use raw stone, you can use the chisel's detail mode to turn it into a transparent block since mobs don't spawn on those, right?

 

I don't think anyone uses dirt flooring so....

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And if you want to use raw stone, you can use the chisel's detail mode to turn it into a transparent block since mobs don't spawn on those, right?

 

You can use the chisel slab mode to do this. I get the feeling this is considered to be a exploit considering the last time I mentioned it Kitty made the following post

 

http://terrafirmacraft.com/f/topic/6602-torch-discussion/page-5#entry91448

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Reading the change log I found that is easier now to break player placed wood logs. I have no idea how the game differentiate those blocks, I am just assuming that if is possible for the game to do that  it would also be possible to make it so no mobs spawn on player placed blocks of any kind. So if any java coder could explain if is possible or not. 

I think that would be the best solution, so you could build a huge castle and even a whole town and never worry about mobs spawning inside it.

Some people like to spread their buildings for decorative reasons. Like to make a dock or a big ship also a light House. Once done they are seldom visited by any one other than the occasional visitor to the town.

It is just not fun to see your nice build explode because your visitor encountered a creeper inside.

This situation is something that the spawn protection does not address and the light did.

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as a beta tester it seems shocking to see the devs defending a change that is obviously getting a bad reception from the beta testing community! i just dont understand. negative comment after negative comment. love the mod, but dont love this change (torches) and apparently am not the only one. there is no reason to even spawn underground caverns. i cant light them up and take my time exploring them because when the torches burn out you can not track your earlier exploration without fighting like crazy and finding burnt out torches in the dark surrounded by mobs makes it impractical, not to mention the fact that picking a few blocks in these caverns is causing massive cave ins. if bioxx wants to see how we react to this change, read this topic. from what i read, WE DONT LIKE IT! 

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There is really no reason for someone to be complaigning about a change that is completely configurable

 

If you don't want to play with torch burn-outs, turn the feature off.

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There is really no reason for someone to be complaigning about a change that is completely configurable

 

If you don't want to play with torch burn-outs, turn the feature off.

and there is no reason set  a default configuration that the community of players doesnt like. default should be set for playability and tweaked for tedium, not vice versa.

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as a beta tester it seems shocking to see the devs defending a change that is obviously getting a bad reception from the beta testing community! i just dont understand. negative comment after negative comment. love the mod, but dont love this change (torches) and apparently am not the only one. there is no reason to even spawn underground caverns. i cant light them up and take my time exploring them because when the torches burn out you can not track your earlier exploration without fighting like crazy and finding burnt out torches in the dark surrounded by mobs makes it impractical, not to mention the fact that picking a few blocks in these caverns is causing massive cave ins. if bioxx wants to see how we react to this change, read this topic. from what i read, WE DONT LIKE IT! 

 

You must not be aware that 90% of all responses to anything where feedback is appreciated is negative, because only the people that feel the need to complain really ever bother saying anything.

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Reading the change log I found that is easier now to break player placed wood logs. I have no idea how the game differentiate those blocks, I am just assuming that if is possible for the game to do that  it would also be possible to make it so no mobs spawn on player placed blocks of any kind. So if any java coder could explain if is possible or not.

 

Logs are the only exception where we use two separate blocks. That's why when you chop a tree, you get a log item instead of a log block. That log item places a brand new log that has a completely different block ID from the one that was in the tree. This was done because of how naturally grown logs scan around to break their neighbors to chop the whole tree at once. If there was no difference between player placed and natural, every time you went to break a log in your house that you misplaced, it would chop down all the nearby logs in your house too.

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Logs are the only exception where we use two separate blocks. That's why when you chop a tree, you get a log item instead of a log block. That log item places a brand new log that has a completely different block ID from the one that was in the tree. This was done because of how naturally grown logs scan around to break their neighbors to chop the whole tree at once. If there was no difference between player placed and natural, every time you went to break a log in your house that you misplaced, it would chop down all the nearby logs in your house too.

Thanks for the explanation kitty. Yes it was annoying to build with logs before this change, I find myself using logs a lot more now. 

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There is really no reason for someone to be complaigning about a change that is completely configurable If you don't want to play with torch burn-outs, turn the feature off.

Oh? What about people that aren't the admin of their server? How about the vast majority of people that don't know what a config file is? Maybe they aren't aware that it even IS a configurable option.People that hold a stance like this are one of the things I generally feel like screaming at. You literally don't get it if you believe "it's configurable" is an acceptable way to defeat a criticism or complaint, as though they're some vile evil thing that needs to be dealt with. It's nearly as bad as "Well if you don't like it don't play it" or "Find a server that does it that way then". That's SO not the point that espousing that viewpoint means you yourself have honestly lost the argument in the eyes of anyone that actually gives a damn, and has real experience with trying to find a server that doesn't run with (nearly) 100% default configs, or just having to lose your friends and the sense of community you gained because some admin or other made a choice that you can't stand, or abused their power, or whatever.One of my favorite quotes by immibis (a mod author) is "First rule of configs: 90% of people won't see your configs. 95% of people won't change them." which links to this blog post: http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-power-of-defaults/It is beautifully summarized by the final paragraph:

For most users, the default value is the only value. Your choice of default values will have a profound impact on how your application is used. You should agonize over every default in your software. If you aren't, you're doing the user, and yourself, a disservice.

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"First rule of configs: 90% of people won't see your configs. 95% of people won't change them."

Very wise words, I had to learn that the hard way. Turns out that even experienced users ignore everything that doesn't work as they expect it right out of the box. Either because they don't know how to change it (and no documentation is read ever!) or they don't care to change it, because in the mind of a user software has to be perfect the very instant it is launched.
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I would simply like to point out that while it is a small sample size, our poll is currently showing that 17.2% out of those who voted are indeed editing their config files. And out of the users who voted they dislike the mechanic, a whopping 32.6% of them changed their configs.

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(...)

I'm sorry, I don't really get what exactly you (or Two, or everybody else who likes to act like defending the 'majority' of all players, who assumingly are oblivious of config files or what they are for) are "screaming" at here.I'm really not very fond of this change myself, and if it bugs me enough, I will turn it off, even I generally don't like changing defaults, but at the same time I don't see why you put such extreme importance on easily changeble defaults as it's the case here.You obviously know how to change the configs as you want, as does Two. And looking at the poll, an overwelming majority seems to like the change of the torches, so who exactly do you try to defend here?You imply, that the Devs are forcing a default game configuration on the players, who in majority don't like this paricular one, but that's clearly not the case here.Even if it was like you say, in my opinion that problem can really be solved easily: I assume even the majority of all TFC players, who don't know how to work with a config file, will quite often use the wiki (without it, TFC is more or less unplayable), so if Kitty were to add hints of a changeble feature on the related pages, perhaps with a link to where the use of the TFC config file is explained simply, I'd consider the problem solved ...
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Even if it was like you say, in my opinion that problem can really be solved easily: I assume even the majority of all TFC players, who don't know how to work with a config file, will quite often use the wiki (without it, TFC is more or less unplayable), so if Kitty were to add hints of a changeble feature on the related pages, perhaps with a link to where the use of the TFC config file is explained simply, I'd consider the problem solved ...

 

You mean like this category? http://wiki.terrafirmacraft.com/Fence#Configuration

 

For every page that I did a major overhaul in 78, I made sure if it had a config related to it, it has a Configuration category on the page. Clicking the title of that category brings you to this page:

 

http://wiki.terrafirmacraft.com/Configuration

 

I will make note to add a section to the Configuration page about how to edit the files once I get around to updating it for 79.

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Ha, thanks Kitty, I didn't even notice ...

If even that isn't enough, you could go as far as to put a boldic red "This feature is configurable in the TFC config file, see below!" over the page. While people learn about farming, smithing, about human history really, they might even learn how to change a game config file forever after through TFC! If there are still people, who don't get it, well, I guess some can't be helped ...

I'm sorry guys, but I find that whole config/default discussion so incredibly ridiculous!

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Kitty, I know that the poll is indicative that people are changing the config, but you should realise that people who are able to take the initiative to come to the forums and talk about their issues or something like that are also more likely to have explored their options and changed the config. It's sort of a biased sample. I'm not saying that the change is bad, because evidently it is not with the positive response (even the biased sample mostly said they liked it, and whether they're smart or not doesn't affect that, only their use of the config), but maybe it should be nerfed to something like 3 days instead of two.

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Thrainn, you haven't ever had a server you liked with a community you liked, and a mod configured (by default) to a setting you didn't like, have you? Defaults are terrifically important.Heck, as an experiment, try finding a few servers using the Monster pack that are using v25z of Reika's mods (DragonAPI, RotaryCraft, ReactorCraft, Geostrata, etc.). Now try and find one single server that has those mods updated AND changed the "Rainbow Fluorite" option to false.I know that I am in the oh so vanishingly small minority that tweaks and modifies and configures like a madman. That's the trick, I know that I am in the minority. Which means the majority of people don't tweak every mod to be more to their liking. Those are the people I am trying to champion for. The huge portion of the TFC playerbase that don't even know this discussion is going on. Because the basic rule of thumb for forum announcements and discussions is that you're getting under a quarter of your users looking at whatever-it-is, and of those maybe a tenth will actually comment? The thread is an amazingly biased sample of the community because it's the people that check the forums, know about the change, and have a desire to speak up that are talking in here... obviously more people are willing to vote in the poll, because I can see the way the poll is tallying up.What I'm trying to keep in mind is the 90% of people that either don't know they can comment/vote, or more likely aren't assertive enough to do so. Instead, people like that will just leave, and give recommendations against the mod in the future. Ask anyone reasonably high up the administrative chain in a service industry. Complaints are taken seriously because if one in a hundred people have the chutzpah or are annoyed enough to fill out a complaint form that means that every complaint is likely 100 complaints pretty similar to it. Most of whom either barely tolerate it, or more likely, just leave.So yes, in my particular case this is a complete non-issue. If it was unconfigurable I would just use MineTweaker to make a 1:1 crafting recipe for TFC torch -> Vanilla Torch... or make a recipe for glowstone, or hack myself in some redstone lamps, or install ExtraFirma... or... yeah. I'm well versed in mucking with mods, I build my own packs to play with and have been doing so since MC was still in Beta. I was around back when IndustrialCraft and Buildcraft were first getting started, back before "Equivalent Exchange" existed...But that's not the point. The point is that many people in this thread are raising actual legitmate concerns, doing so in a civil manner, and are being dismissed and/or ignored. By you, by other people, even by Kitty.You're just saying "I find that whole config/default discussion so incredibly ridiculous!" but anyone that's been on the tech support for packs or servers, or just paid attention to forums at the right times can tell you: defaults are important, vitally so. Incidentally, I'm bringing some reasoned arguments and trying to provide examples (though I'm not citing them because oh gods finding examples would be a nightmare... I could attempt to do so if you're still skeptical though). You're just saying "that's silly" like it will make the problem disappear. The ostrich approach doesn't actually work :-)This entire concept is why there are giant "balance" debates out there. Because defaults are vitally important!

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