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Cerus

Surface Monsters - Nest based spawning, roaming, invading

16 posts in this topic

The expiring torch mechanic discussion got me thinking about ways to make monster spawning on the surface more interesting, primarily removing the tie to light levels, while also making monster behavior more dynamic and threatening.

  • [*]Disable light level based spawning on the surface. [*]Monsters spawn at "nests" [*]Nests grow over time, up to a limit based on geography/proximity to other nests and nearby player activity. [*]Monster "groups" are generated from nests (loaded or not) and expand into areas without nests, placing new small nests. [*]Certain types of player activity in an area marks that area as a "player nest" of sorts. [*]Monster groups are attracted to nearby player nests, as a player you'll see a group of monsters approaching your settlement at night from the direction of a monster nest from time to time. [*]Nests that are allowed to get too large start spawning a variant that can target and destroy walls. [*]Nests are defined by special blocks or structures, a player can interact with these in some way to destroy or reduce the size of the nest.

The drive behind this kind of a spawning overhaul is threefold:

 

First, it eliminates monsters from spawning inside surface structures in a sealed area if that area is not already a monster nest.

Second, it makes monsters far more of a threat to large settlements (identified as big player nests), attracting monsters from many nearby monster nests.

Third, it puts control of the local monster threat more directly into the hands of the players, by allowing them to attack a nest directly to put a stop to the groups spawning there. As opposed to the passive spawn protection system we rely on now.

 

Note: None of these changes would affect spawning behavior below ground, unlit caves would be every bit as dangerous as they are now.

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While I think this overall idea is a improvement over the current spawn protection mechanism, I'm not sure why you want to disable overworld spawning based off of light levels

 

That change would allow hostile mobs to spawn above ground any time of the day or night. I personally think hostile mobs shouldn't be spawning frequently above ground in the daytime (sure there will be instances such as mobs leaving caves, but overall daytime should be a time where you don't have to worry about mobs that much)

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While I think this overall idea is a improvement over the current spawn protection mechanism, I'm not sure why you want to disable overworld spawning based off of light levels

 

That change would allow hostile mobs to spawn above ground any time of the day or night. I personally think hostile mobs shouldn't be spawning frequently above ground (sure there will be instances such as mobs leaving caves, but overall daytime should be a time where you don't have to worry about mobs that much)

 

The idea is just to remove spawning in the dark for monsters (on the surface), no mobs would spawn or (in the case of spiders) be aggressive during the day. For the undead that burn in the sunlight, I was imagining something like having the virtual "group" of monsters hibernate during the day, either not spawning in when their region is loaded, or perhaps have them appear to be burrowed into the dirt when it's available.

 

Overall, I imagine a system like this would greatly reduce the *total* number of monsters, but make the interactions that do occur way more dangerous and relevant.

 

(Because if you see a group of monsters at night, they're probably coming for you.)

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Then you probably want to reword your suggestion so it sais something along the following

 

Change above sea level mob spawning so it requires both

 

1.) Light level below 8

and

2.) Sufficient Monster values

 

Perhaps it could be something along the lines of taint in Thaumcraft (or at least it used to be [i haven't played Thaumcraft since 1.2.5])

Chunks could have a monster level that decreases when players kill monsters in that chunk. The monster level would slowly increase if no players are within 4 chunk radius or so of a player similar to the current spawn protection mechanic

 

At high enough monster levels, mobs can spawn above sea level

 

At even higher monster levels, you could experience effects listed in the original post

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As a developer, I tend to ignore overly specific suggestions, and I felt I was definitely pushing it already with the list I had. If there's expressed interest I'd gladly provide more of the sort of details you listed above.

 

Which are excellent by the way, if a bit different from my original thought. But that's exactly why I'm trying not to be overly specific about every little detail. Just wanted to get ideas out there, because the current spawning bugs me terribly.

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@ Cerus

 

I too dislike the Vanilla spawning method, it is a terrible system. While this sounds like a good step, it may not be the direction that the devs are going since I think they are going to make new mobs that are more believable.

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@ Cerus

 

I too dislike the Vanilla spawning method, it is a terrible system. While this sounds like a good step, it may not be the direction that the devs are going since I think they are going to make new mobs that are more believable.

 

Yeah, I was wondering how this might rub against their eventual plan to put all the "fantasy" type monsters underground. In theory though, this kind of system wouldn't have to be restricted to monsters.

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Hmm... its interesting, but here is another idea.

What if monsters AI was changed so they will not actively move into well lit areas, unless there is a player within their aggro radius?

 

Maintaining enough light in a region would be paramount to avoid approaching mobs, and make torch maintenance important.

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This would work for 'pack' animals like wolves or lions, but normally most predators at the top of the food chain are relatively solitary, so i'm not sure this would really work for the new animal mobs. While we could just have it in place for wolves or something like that, it's just not cohesive to have two systems performing the same task. I think it's better to simply wait for the new animals to come in and have them be persistent but also *stronger* than one would expect. I would think that it would take a couple of stone-age warriors to take down a wolf, at least two armed with spears. You'd have to be quite exceptional to go it alone, and that could tie into someone with levels. Of course, once armour gets involved, animals wont have a way of using blunt damage, so I do wonder how the devs will tackle introducing challenging enemies that even armoured players would think twice about engaging. Perhaps large, typically docile animals, (so that they aren't harmful to stone-age players) that become enraged when the player attacks; they would provide some resource which was useful/needed for higher level play. In fact, I can see maybe having Bulls that will attempt to defend their herd, thus creating a barrier to Animal Husbandry. With the new taming system, it would be inconceivable to try tame a full grown Bull, but a baby might be successfully tamed such that your animals weren't always trying to kill you. You could try to kill the bull and take the heifers, or snatch some young ones and get away in time to start a new herd from scratch. Similarly, Mountain Goats- most players wouldn't really venture onto really high mountains for no reason, so stone age players wouldn't be in danger, but these Mountain Goats could have knockback and devilish hardiness- knocking you back down onto the plains below as they guard their territory. 

 

Most Blunt damage I can see is from these ramming animals who have a lot of strength and weight behind them, the kind that are usually tamed by humans. It looks like Bears, Wolves etc are less of a problem once sufficient armour is gained. They could knock off your helmet or something though, and then do damage.

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The expiring torch mechanic discussion got me thinking about ways to make monster spawning on the surface more interesting, primarily removing the tie to light levels, while also making monster behavior more dynamic and threatening.

[*]Disable light level based spawning on the surface.

[*]Monsters spawn at "nests"

[*]Nests grow over time, up to a limit based on geography/proximity to other nests and nearby player activity.

[*]Monster "groups" are generated from nests (loaded or not) and expand into areas without nests, placing new small nests.

[*]Certain types of player activity in an area marks that area as a "player nest" of sorts.

[*]Monster groups are attracted to nearby player nests, as a player you'll see a group of monsters approaching your settlement at night from the direction of a monster nest from time to time.

[*]Nests that are allowed to get too large start spawning a variant that can target and destroy walls.

[*]Nests are defined by special blocks or structures, a player can interact with these in some way to destroy or reduce the size of the nest.

The drive behind this kind of a spawning overhaul is threefold:

 

First, it eliminates monsters from spawning inside surface structures in a sealed area if that area is not already a monster nest.

Second, it makes monsters far more of a threat to large settlements (identified as big player nests), attracting monsters from many nearby monster nests.

Third, it puts control of the local monster threat more directly into the hands of the players, by allowing them to attack a nest directly to put a stop to the groups spawning there. As opposed to the passive spawn protection system we rely on now.

 

Note: None of these changes would affect spawning behavior below ground, unlit caves would be every bit as dangerous as they are now.

I do think that this would be an improvement to the way of player - AI interaction , but i also think that the option of alowing the "growing monsters nests" to destroy walls isn't wise , it would cause constant harassment to settlments nearby in the form of structural destruction .

However making the mobs soleley target domesticated animals and giving them the ablity to avoid obstacles that are in the way  , like killing your guard dog , depending on how stong he is , or the ability to jump fences would set back the player by a bit , and not damage the infrastructure so much so that the player can recover and fight back (or defend (hide)) himself .

 

I suggest that there should be a "imaginary" number of "player acitvity" added to the "player nest" . Dependant of the number of players or the "quantity" of movements (actions) in the "player nest" .

 

That would mean , for multyplayer , there would be a way to detect how large atacking hordes should be , and how devastating the attack would be , for singleplayer , it would mean that a sole player that can't defend against too much animals , that he in fact doesn't have to .

 

As one more thing , i would find it a nice adventuring experience if there were nests from somewhere to somewhere that would be above average in strenght , but would not attack you unless you don't attack them .

 

The only problem with this system i can think of it is its implementation in TFC code . :)

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Personally I like the idea of mobs being able to break blocks, but it would definitely be something that would have to be either configurable or hard/harcore only

 

Actually for that matter, I think this entire suggestion if implemented would have to be configurable

 

And its pretty apparent based off of what players such as lightningtiger have said, that there should be a configuration for monsters to not be able to spawn above sea level

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Personally I like the idea of mobs being able to break blocks, but it would definitely be something that would have to be either configurable or hard/harcore only

 

I figured that item would be a bit controversial, configurable would definitely be good.

 

In my mind I can see the destruction aspect primarily coming into play if you're rather carefully ignoring everything around you. With slowly growing nests and a threshold before they start sending block breakers, you'd see a warning sign in the form of a group coming at you from a specific direction many nights in a row before your wall would ever be in danger. In a way, this also gives players more "roles" to play in a town, by proactively scouting the surrounding area, tearing down small nests, and reporting large ones before they become a problem. By tying nest growth and hostility to player activity, you can also reduce the impact this has on singleplayer and hermit players.

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Things breaking blocks is the big no-no. Not if they can do it without provocation (ie Creeper). The amount of backlash against that enderman mechanic in vanilla had it so that they pretty much nerfed it to only dirt and sand, and that was random. If it was targeted at player structures, especially in TFC where these things are hard to build and might collapse if one thing is removed, I can see people ragequitting and honestly just not building. 

 

If anything can be broken, it has to be *one* specific thing, or a *set* of specific things, ie it shouldn't be everything can be broken except this, but rather, nothing can be broken except this. The door mechanic is a good example. Even then, it's limited to hard mode. It means people can build around the mechanic. But indiscriminate block-breakers? As a builder, I can't support that at all. In fact, having played minecraft survival mods where block breakers are a thing, it's fun for sure, but only for a couple of hours. It's more of a short term 'survive as long as you can' feel and then give up and just restart to play again. Not many people would ever get to bronze, for goodness' sake. 

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I like this concept because it would allow for planning to mitigate the threat of monsters, and could provide a reason for getting better armor and weapons in a non-pvp setting.  I'm always in favor of reasons to make better technology and ways to mitigate/eliminate threats, so I'd be ok with limited lower tier block breaking/climbing after a sufficient time period (and limited to hard by default, but configurable).  Having zombies break thatch or climb simple fences would give a reason to use more difficult building techniques.

 

A simpler version of this would work for a pack of wolves or a mountain lion to attack once zombies and the like move underground.  At that point their might be other hazards on the surface, perhaps weather or pest related (Horde of rats got brave enough to tear down your thatch & eat your grain?)

 

Of course all this depends on how accommodating the mob AI can be. While I have seen mods change zombie hordes and give them new skills running that sort of AI and the rest of TFC might take a lot of coding and be a drain on computer/server resources.  If thats the case I would much rather we get additional/improved processing techniques, natural mobs, weather, body heat, etc.

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Things breaking blocks is the big no-no. Not if they can do it without provocation (ie Creeper). The amount of backlash against that enderman mechanic in vanilla had it so that they pretty much nerfed it to only dirt and sand, and that was random. If it was targeted at player structures, especially in TFC where these things are hard to build and might collapse if one thing is removed, I can see people ragequitting and honestly just not building. 

 

If anything can be broken, it has to be *one* specific thing, or a *set* of specific things, ie it shouldn't be everything can be broken except this, but rather, nothing can be broken except this. The door mechanic is a good example. Even then, it's limited to hard mode. It means people can build around the mechanic. But indiscriminate block-breakers? As a builder, I can't support that at all. In fact, having played minecraft survival mods where block breakers are a thing, it's fun for sure, but only for a couple of hours. It's more of a short term 'survive as long as you can' feel and then give up and just restart to play again. Not many people would ever get to bronze, for goodness' sake. 

 

I see the block breaking mechanic as akin to the TFC starvation mechanic. Ideally, it *never* happens, it mostly just exists as a distant threat if you do something very wrong.

 

Even so, it needs to exist to drive the whole thing forward, ya know? Right now it's ridiculously easy to make an entirely safe little area, and "fortifying it" against monster incursions is literally as boring as sitting inside it for a long time. At the same time, large bases are really poorly handled by the spawn protection system, it's possible to have two otherwise identical layouts have different monster spawning problems just because one of them is sitting in a weird position across multiple chunks, that just feels wrong.

 

I don't think comparing it to Enderman is entirely fair, since Endermen spawn and pick things up randomly, but the threat here would be very telegraphed, and designed as an obstacle intended from the start to be mitigated. Just as hunger is mitigated. If you lose an important structure it means that you failed in several very specific ways, either it was outside the wall (and blocking the path to a valid target) or you allowed a wall to be breached after many waves of monsters arrived from that direction who didn't have the capability to break your wall.

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I think the key for lategame play will come when there's a division between the above ground (wolves/bears/animals) and the below ground (skeletons/zombies/creepers). This has been confirmed (although I don't know if its actually going to happen) and I think that's where the 'challenge' should be. As far as actual threat, TFC is designed for multiplayer. Other than that, I don't think you should have to face a threat at the lategame unless you seek it out or are very negligent; by then I see it as the time for building and creativity with the tools you have worked for. The job of survival *has* to become easier over the game because otherwise you don't feel rewarded over the progression.

 

Once fantasy mobs are moved below ground, I can see them getting a huge buff. 

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